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The original poster is not asking about the alpha legions loyaleties. Thr OP is asking for a historical reference for the cannon, tracking what ideas where implemented when. As I read Legion I did not think it was new information, but I played back in 2nd edition. Am I wrong?

I did not know that the Blood Ravens did not excist before the dawn of war games. Proves how much I can trust my memory.

I don't have access to the 2nd edition codex right this moment, but from what I remember of 2nd edition, they were straightforwardly chaotic then. They were described as the last First Founding Chapter to be founded, and the last to find their Primarch. This meant they had a bit of an inferiority complex, which was encouraged by Horus. During the Great Crusade they tried to "beat" other Chapters by conquering worlds faster, or by outdoing other forces in the same theatres. When the Heresy broke out, they were enthusiastic traitors in that they took it as an opportunity to prove themselves against their peers. They may have fallen blindly (like the Thousand Sons) rather than knowing what they were getting into, but fall they did. They were known for being devious and setting up local cults, cells of sympathisers, utilising traps and misdirection, but they were still definitely wrong'uns.

So, somewhere between then and the publication of Legion is where the "but perhaps they'e not really traitors!" meme arose.

Well what we need is a citation that confirms it from a cited source. If nobody can do that it probably changed in Legion (2008).

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

...their moustaches longer and more luxurious, the twirling of them into ever-more complex geometries?

Table wrote:
I think that basically, no one here has been reading the last few chaos codex's. And if we go by the GW statement that codex trumps all then we have to refer to it. The Alpha Legion are very much a faction of chaos marines. They have demon princes in positions of leadership. They have numerous sorc's they use to mess things up. They have destroyed imperial targets by simply summoning swarms of demons. They haven't lost any thread. They are full on "bad guys". All of this information can be found in the current 8th edition codex. Now as to why some people are so stuck on a idea present a decade and a half ago is beyond me. Even if it was cannon then, it is not now. The cannon has been re-written a few times and this would be no different.

One more thing to note. The Alpha Legion worked hand in hand with Magnus and the Sons to create the current and horrible position the imperium is in. They are the two legions who have done the most to bring this about. To call them arch traitors is not enough. The two legions have done what others have failed to do. Break the imperium in two. Doesn't sound like "good guys" to me. So, in summation, if you read the actual codex then you would know that the AL are a chaos legion that makes full use of chaos.

Yea, one Codex trumping anything is not an official policy. Two, 40k isn't really an ongoing story so much as a setting that occasionally lurches forward with new stuff. That's not to say there is no canon or retcons, but it has a time period that just covering the time period of Alpha Legion covers 20,000 years. That is a ton of time to explore and talk out a ton of possibilities. Of course in the Chaos codex, pretty much all the stories are going to include devote chaos marines. There are a lot of other sources that hint at splinter groups that are still loyal or at least want to be again.

Actually the BL novel Sons of the Hydra show it is not outdated or retconned. That novel only came out a few months ago. There are a few in the Alpha Legion that still view themselves as loyalists (the main character in that novel is one of them). They view themselves as either deep cover agents or they view themselves much as Istvaanian Inquisitor might. In other words, they believe they test the Imperium and strengthen it by cutting away the corrupt and the weak. Of course, the main character himself could be criticized as being self-deceiving and delusional. It all depends on POV.

The splits within the Alpha Legion mirror the fragmentation of the other Legions. Those that still view themselves as loyalists definitely seem to be a minority. In Sons of the Hydra, some of the Alpha Legion view themselves as loyalists in deep cover playing the long game, and they clearly believe that loyalty does not mean publicly declaring it. Whether or not others in-universe or out of universe agree with them, that is how at least some seem to view themselves. They may be self-deceiving. It depends on whether people view the idea of the Isvaanian philosophy as being legitimate or not. At its heart that philosophy believes that true strength only arises in adversity and if natural adversity is insufficient, then it must be created. An Istvaanian Inquisitor views the havoc he or she causes as tempering the Imperium, burning away the weak while letting the strong demonstrate their talent and strength.

Ultimately it seems the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, even if it believes it might. I find that a more tragic fate for the Alpha Legion: rather than some shadowy mastermind (or multiple masterminds) pulling strings in the shadows and coordinating some sublime plan with the cults and warbands, it really is just randomness and any claim to a higher purpose is just self-deception and delusion.

Table wrote:
I think that basically, no one here has been reading the last few chaos codex's. And if we go by the GW statement that codex trumps all then we have to refer to it. The Alpha Legion are very much a faction of chaos marines. They have demon princes in positions of leadership. They have numerous sorc's they use to mess things up. They have destroyed imperial targets by simply summoning swarms of demons. They haven't lost any thread. They are full on "bad guys". All of this information can be found in the current 8th edition codex. Now as to why some people are so stuck on a idea present a decade and a half ago is beyond me. Even if it was cannon then, it is not now. The cannon has been re-written a few times and this would be no different.

One more thing to note. The Alpha Legion worked hand in hand with Magnus and the Sons to create the current and horrible position the imperium is in. They are the two legions who have done the most to bring this about. To call them arch traitors is not enough. The two legions have done what others have failed to do. Break the imperium in two. Doesn't sound like "good guys" to me. So, in summation, if you read the actual codex then you would know that the AL are a chaos legion that makes full use of chaos.

He's asking when they 'first' were called into question, he didn't ask anything about new lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well there is nothing in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th codex's, I don't have the 5th edition codex as I took a break from 40k then, I think the novel Legion is the first time their loyalty was taking into question.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Table wrote:
I think that basically, no one here has been reading the last few chaos codex's. And if we go by the GW statement that codex trumps all then we have to refer to it. The Alpha Legion are very much a faction of chaos marines. They have demon princes in positions of leadership. They have numerous sorc's they use to mess things up. They have destroyed imperial targets by simply summoning swarms of demons. They haven't lost any thread. They are full on "bad guys". All of this information can be found in the current 8th edition codex. Now as to why some people are so stuck on a idea present a decade and a half ago is beyond me. Even if it was cannon then, it is not now. The cannon has been re-written a few times and this would be no different.

One more thing to note. The Alpha Legion worked hand in hand with Magnus and the Sons to create the current and horrible position the imperium is in. They are the two legions who have done the most to bring this about. To call them arch traitors is not enough. The two legions have done what others have failed to do. Break the imperium in two. Doesn't sound like "good guys" to me. So, in summation, if you read the actual codex then you would know that the AL are a chaos legion that makes full use of chaos.

Yea, one Codex trumping anything is not an official policy. Two, 40k isn't really an ongoing story so much as a setting that occasionally lurches forward with new stuff. That's not to say there is no canon or retcons, but it has a time period that just covering the time period of Alpha Legion covers 20,000 years. That is a ton of time to explore and talk out a ton of possibilities. Of course in the Chaos codex, pretty much all the stories are going to include devote chaos marines. There are a lot of other sources that hint at splinter groups that are still loyal or at least want to be again.

As long as I have been playing fantasy (10 years) and now 40k, the mantra has always been army-book(codex) is the go to base for lore and fluff. Perhaps those people were wrong, not sure. I guess we need to look for actual GW quotes on the subject.

And it is not one codex, im sorry to disappoint. Its been every codex since 3.5 (and I cant speak for 3.5 or below because I don't own them and wasn't around). Every chaos codex states AL are bad mofo's.


And yes, I did not understand the thread. Or more truthfully, didn't even read it in full before I opened my fat maw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Table wrote:
I think that basically, no one here has been reading the last few chaos codex's. And if we go by the GW statement that codex trumps all then we have to refer to it. The Alpha Legion are very much a faction of chaos marines. They have demon princes in positions of leadership. They have numerous sorc's they use to mess things up. They have destroyed imperial targets by simply summoning swarms of demons. They haven't lost any thread. They are full on "bad guys". All of this information can be found in the current 8th edition codex. Now as to why some people are so stuck on a idea present a decade and a half ago is beyond me. Even if it was cannon then, it is not now. The cannon has been re-written a few times and this would be no different.

One more thing to note. The Alpha Legion worked hand in hand with Magnus and the Sons to create the current and horrible position the imperium is in. They are the two legions who have done the most to bring this about. To call them arch traitors is not enough. The two legions have done what others have failed to do. Break the imperium in two. Doesn't sound like "good guys" to me. So, in summation, if you read the actual codex then you would know that the AL are a chaos legion that makes full use of chaos.

He's asking when they 'first' were called into question, he didn't ask anything about new lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well there is nothing in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th codex's, I don't have the 5th edition codex as I took a break from 40k then, I think the novel Legion is the first time their loyalty was taking into question.

Yea its a combo of my horrible reading comprehension and just being exasperated by the amount of people on this forum who actually think AL are somehow "good guys". They are not. Does ONE or TWO splinter wargroups exist? Possible. But they are not hanging around in the eye or with the other warbands. Because being part of chaos leaves its mark. It also consumes you. There are no loyalist chaos marines. They are only loyal to themselves and perhaps their patron god (if they have one). So at that point, can these minor splinter factions even be considered a chaos warband? Not using demon princes, summoning or marks. Not using demon engines and the like. At that point they are renegade loyalists and should be represented as such. Which is why we need a third marine faction (ducks).

They could very well be good guys, provided you define good. The Legion books puts them on a mission to wipe out the emperor and then humanaty for a good cause. Geneside of your origin race as good, in this case yes.

Sure some alpha legions can have fallen to splinter sells consumed by chaos. But they could also stay true to their creed.

Once again this thread is about when this idea was first introduced. Are bo sources before Legion (2008)?

I kind of miss the Alpha Legion that had a chip on its shoulder about being better than the Ultramarines (the whole Alpha to the UM Omega).

Table wrote:
Yea its a combo of my horrible reading comprehension and just being exasperated by the amount of people on this forum who actually think AL are somehow "good guys". They are not.

There are no good guys in 40k. There is only war.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I kind of miss the Alpha Legion that had a chip on its shoulder about being better than the Ultramarines (the whole Alpha to the UM Omega).

You mean when things made sense?

I have pretty strong memories of a Heresy book wherein the AL are shown (by 'the Cabal', IIRC) that things will work out much worse for Humanity if the Emperor wins, so they side with Horus.

That was Legion. Which introduced the Cabal, Omegon, the idea that the Alpha Legion might be secretly loyal and Perpetuals. Thanks a bunch.