Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im in the "passengers get affected by +1" camp
The strategem lasts for the remainder of thhe phase, so I reckon when it's time to select passengers to shoot they get affected by the same modifier as the transport.

Since GW has not defined what modifiers are this entire discussion is somewhat moot. They may decide that a +1 to hit rolls from a stratagem is not a modifier while a -1 to hit rolls from being outside of 12" of an Alaitoc enemy is.

GW did rule that the battlewagon modifier rule 'mobile fortress' does not affect its passengers too.

Personally I think the intent is clear (not affected), particularly given the latest ork FAQ with regards stratagems. The intent around the Freeboota trait is less obvious though.

Should the stratagem effect the units inside? IMO, yes, because of the way open topped rules work and the wording of Long Uncontrolled Bursts.

Does it?

Unfortunately not, the FAQ explicitly states that stratagems (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) do not affect units embarked inside.

The Freeboota trait I'd say still equally applies - the vehicle is getting a +1 to hit modifier, and as a result of open topped rules - that's what's being transferred. Additionally, the Freeboota trait is not a stratagem, so the FAQ ruling in that regard doesn't apply.

fe40k wrote:
Should the stratagem effect the units inside? IMO, yes, because of the way open topped rules work and the wording of Long Uncontrolled Bursts.

Does it?

Unfortunately not, the FAQ explicitly states that stratagems (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) do not affect units embarked inside.

The Freeboota trait I'd say still equally applies - the vehicle is getting a +1 to hit modifier, and as a result of open topped rules - that's what's being transferred. Additionally, the Freeboota trait is not a stratagem, so the FAQ ruling in that regard doesn't apply.

But the strategem does not target the passengers... It targets the transport and gives it a modifier for the rest of the phase.

I think the faq was more about putting strategems directly on units while they were in transports

Gitdakka wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Should the stratagem effect the units inside? IMO, yes, because of the way open topped rules work and the wording of Long Uncontrolled Bursts.

Does it?

Unfortunately not, the FAQ explicitly states that stratagems (Long Uncontrolled Bursts) do not affect units embarked inside.

The Freeboota trait I'd say still equally applies - the vehicle is getting a +1 to hit modifier, and as a result of open topped rules - that's what's being transferred. Additionally, the Freeboota trait is not a stratagem, so the FAQ ruling in that regard doesn't apply.

But the strategem does not target the passengers... It targets the transport and gives it a modifier for the rest of the phase.

I think the faq was more about putting strategems directly on units while they were in transports

I agree, I see the FAQ more of an "of course you can't get twice the effect from Stratagems; and clearly they wouldn't transfer to the passengers, it's only targeting a single model/unit" - but the problem is, it explicitly calls out that passengers get no benefit.

I wouldn't mind letting my opponent (or myself) play it like that in a casual game; but the problem is if you ever tried to pull it in a tournament - "The passengers aren't getting a benefit from the Stragatem..; but they DO get +1 to hit against a unit with FLY" - which is of course them being affected by the stratagems rules (albeit in a roundabout way).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Since GW has not defined what modifiers are this entire discussion is somewhat moot. They may decide that a +1 to hit rolls from a stratagem is not a modifier while a -1 to hit rolls from being outside of 12" of an Alaitoc enemy is.

GW did rule that the battlewagon modifier rule 'mobile fortress' does not affect its passengers too.

Personally I think the intent is clear (not affected), particularly given the latest ork FAQ with regards stratagems. The intent around the Freeboota trait is less obvious though.

GW also didn't define what "roll", "dice" or "six" means either. A minimum level of English Comprehension is needed to parse the rules.

The faq seems fairly clear, if you use a strat on a transport the unit inside is not effected. You also cannot use a strat on a unit that is in a transport. The open topped rule only permits units to shoot in the shooting phase. A unit in a transport would not gain any bonuses from any aura.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Since GW has not defined what modifiers are this entire discussion is somewhat moot. They may decide that a +1 to hit rolls from a stratagem is not a modifier while a -1 to hit rolls from being outside of 12" of an Alaitoc enemy is.

GW did rule that the battlewagon modifier rule 'mobile fortress' does not affect its passengers too.

Personally I think the intent is clear (not affected), particularly given the latest ork FAQ with regards stratagems. The intent around the Freeboota trait is less obvious though.

GW also didn't define what "roll", "dice" or "six" means either. A minimum level of English Comprehension is needed to parse the rules.

Which is what makes your stance on what constitutes a reinforcement even more baffling.

I think that "affect" is a term too broad to be applied in RAW arguments. This was the same as the discussion recently about whether an embarked unit is "affected" by it's own rules, which I don't want to dredge up.

If a unit is in a warkopta, the warkopta gets buffed and then it shoots an enemy warkopta, only destroys it by virtue of it's modifier from the stratagem, and the unit inside the enemy warkopta disembarks, then the unit in the first warkopta shoots the unit which came out of the second (and would not have done were it not for the stratagem) then the unit in the first warkopta is "affected" by the stratagem by having an infantry unit as a target instead of a vehicle.

This would be prevalent in tankbustas who would no longer be rerolling to hit the target, as it is no longer a vehicle.

whether a unit is "Affected" by this or "Affected" by that is a silly thing to argue - all units are affected by every event which happens in the game. If a unit in a wagon wants to shoot a unit in another vehicle, but the vehicle is saved by a stratagem, then they have been "Affected" by this, but the FAQ doesn't mean that they can shoot the unit as if the vehicle had been destroyed, does it?


I'm in the group that the modifier transfers from the vehicle as per the open topped rule, because the vehicle has the modifier for the rest of the phase. how the vehicle got the modifier is another matter.

Are there any stratagems which give -1 to hit a unit? If so, do units in a vehicle not get affected by this, as they would be being affected by a stratagem? no! the unit which the stratagem is used on is affected by the stratagem to gain the ability. the ability then affects any unit that shoots at it.

I think that's the crux of it:

Stratagem affects the unit, gives it an ability and then disappears.
Ability is passed onto passengers through open-topped.

if you prevent any embarked units from being affected by stratagems then you prevent them from doing anything if any stratagems are used, because if the stratagem influences the game, if affects every unit in it.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Since GW has not defined what modifiers are this entire discussion is somewhat moot.

They have given us extensive examples of modifiers, however, numbers being added, subtracted, multiplied or divided by. They even told us how to handle a random number (D6, 2D6, etc),including substituting a number, for these situations. So, for this instance where we are talking about a number being added, they have indicated that it is a modifier. Having no statement about where the modifier comes from just means there's no inherent limitation on using where the modifier comes from, at least from the standpoint of the rules for modifiers.

RageofBlack wrote:The faq seems fairly clear, if you use a strat on a transport the unit inside is not effected. You also cannot use a strat on a unit that is in a transport. The open topped rule only permits units to shoot in the shooting phase. A unit in a transport would not gain any bonuses from any aura.

If there was a friendly aura that gave +1 to hit or an enemy aura that gave -1 to hit, both coming frm outside, those auras would pass to the embarked unit thanks to open topped.

some bloke wrote:I think that "affect" is a term too broad to be applied in RAW arguments. This was the same as the discussion recently about whether an embarked unit is "affected" by it's own rules, which I don't want to dredge up.

If a unit is in a warkopta, the warkopta gets buffed and then it shoots an enemy warkopta, only destroys it by virtue of it's modifier from the stratagem, and the unit inside the enemy warkopta disembarks, then the unit in the first warkopta shoots the unit which came out of the second (and would not have done were it not for the stratagem) then the unit in the first warkopta is "affected" by the stratagem by having an infantry unit as a target instead of a vehicle.

This would be prevalent in tankbustas who would no longer be rerolling to hit the target, as it is no longer a vehicle.

whether a unit is "Affected" by this or "Affected" by that is a silly thing to argue - all units are affected by every event which happens in the game. If a unit in a wagon wants to shoot a unit in another vehicle, but the vehicle is saved by a stratagem, then they have been "Affected" by this, but the FAQ doesn't mean that they can shoot the unit as if the vehicle had been destroyed, does it?


I'm in the group that the modifier transfers from the vehicle as per the open topped rule, because the vehicle has the modifier for the rest of the phase. how the vehicle got the modifier is another matter.

Are there any stratagems which give -1 to hit a unit? If so, do units in a vehicle not get affected by this, as they would be being affected by a stratagem? no! the unit which the stratagem is used on is affected by the stratagem to gain the ability. the ability then affects any unit that shoots at it.

I think that's the crux of it:

Stratagem affects the unit, gives it an ability and then disappears.
Ability is passed onto passengers through open-topped.

if you prevent any embarked units from being affected by stratagems then you prevent them from doing anything if any stratagems are used, because if the stratagem influences the game, if affects every unit in it.

Exactly this, if an eldar uses his strat to give -1 to hit to everything that targets a unit an embarked unit would suffer from it too, completely agree that "affects" is a term too broad. And again the argument of infinite bomb squigs or plasma not killing its bearer while embarked would rise because of the same term used (inside of an already poorly writen sentence) but dont want to go down there again either.