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nareik wrote:
Where do you draw the line? Catachans aren't standard humans. Fenrisians aren't either. What about those purple eyes cadians? Nuke them from orbit I say, it's the only way to be sure.

And terrans have clay grey skin, so I guess it's Exterminatus-o-clock on Terra too.

In fact all of humanity has slowly developed some form of adaptation to their non-native enviroments, so I guess it's off with them all, just to be sure.

nareik wrote:
Where do you draw the line? Catachans aren't standard humans. Fenrisians aren't either. What about those purple eyes cadians? Nuke them from orbit I say, it's the only way to be sure.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
And terrans have clay grey skin, so I guess it's Exterminatus-o-clock on Terra too.

What? Catachans, Fenrisians, and Cadians are all standard humans. Catachans are super strong because they were born and grew up on a planet that has stronger gravity then Terra (hint: you would be as strong as them had you grown up there), the purple eyed, chaos worshiping weirdos that originally lived on Cadia were all killed by orbital bombardment, and the rumors that Fenrisians altered their DNA are just that, rumors. And considering skin color a mutation? REALLY? There is a massive difference between minute DNA differences between humans living on different planets that probably share 99.99% the same DNA and a fething ogryn, a 10 foot tall slab of meat that is stronger than a space marine, stupider than an ork and barely even resembles being human any more. Humans probably have more in common genetically with gorillas than ogryns.

Unless you're arguing from ad absurdium territory and are saying that only ONE genetic sequence string is considered truly "human" and the rest are "mutants" even if they differ by only one link. You both can get your false equivalence arguments out of here.

w1zard wrote:

nareik wrote:

What? Catachans, Fenrisians, and Cadians are all standard humans. Catachans are super strong because they were born and grew up on a planet that has stronger gravity then Terra (hint: you would be as strong as them had you grown up there),

That's what happened to Ogryn too. They were born on high gravity world and turned into Ogryns to survive.

the purple eyed, chaos worshiping weirdos that originally lived on Cadia were all killed by orbital bombardment,

Modern Cadians still all have purple eyes. Either the bombardment didn't kill them all or the new ones had the exact same mutation.

and the rumors that Fenrisians altered their DNA are just that, rumors. And considering skin color a mutation? REALLY? There is a massive difference between minute DNA differences between humans living on different planets that probably share 99.99% the same DNA and a fething ogryn, a 10 foot tall slab of meat that is stronger than a space marine, stupider than an ork and barely even resembles being human any more. Humans probably have more in common genetically with gorillas than ogryns.Unless you're arguing from ad absurdium territory and are saying that only ONE genetic sequence string is considered truly "human" and the rest are "mutants" even if they differ by only one link. You both can get your false equivalence arguments out of here.

The genetic difference between an Ogryn and a human could very well be in the 5-10% realm. We are less then 2% removed from chimps need I remind you. Who knows what's the tolerable level. Red and Black, the audio book of the SoB state that 96% is enough to qualify as a human according to imperial law.

epronovost wrote:
That's what happened to Ogryn too. They were born on high gravity world and turned into Ogryns to survive.

There is a difference between being a human and having bigger muscles because you were born on a gravity world, and being literally a different species because your people have lived on a high gravity world for thousands of years and mutated. If you can't understand the difference between these two things then I can't help you.

epronovost wrote:
Modern Cadians still all have purple eyes. Either the bombardment didn't kill them all or the new ones had the exact same mutation.

Modern cadians don't all have purple eyes. I've personally read novels where their eye colors were described as normal. If certain cadians have purple eyes it is most certainly confined to only a small segment of the population.

epronovost wrote:
The genetic difference between an Ogryn and a human could very well be in the 5-10% realm. We are less then 2% removed from chimps need I remind you. Who knows what's the tolerable level. Red and Black, the audio book of the SoB state that 96% is enough to qualify as a human according to imperial law.

So a chimp would be considered human? LOL the arguments keep getting more ridiculous.

w1zard wrote:
...literally a different species...

Just to clarify, I believe that abhumans are technically a different subspecies. Hence the name Homo Sapiens Gigantus, Rotundus, Minimus etc. That would mean that they could still breed with other subspecies, at least if you allow for anatomical differences. Also, they should produce fertile offspring.

The % dna thing is a bit useless really. As has been said, completely different animals can share a lot of dna with each other.

w1zard wrote:

So a chimp would be considered human? LOL the arguments keep getting more ridiculous.

There are probably other criterias then pure genetics. In the same audio short, the person with a 96% human DNA is a false-man, basically a genetically engineered human born in a vat. According to imperial law she wasn't a human, she was on the same legal standing than a servitor. But the entire plot of the audio short is based around the debate over the humanity of these false-man. There was enough of doubt for it to generate debate within the Ecclesiarchy (in the end, they aren't recognised as humans). It's probable that a similar debate was held over the fate of abhumans.Those we have are those who were deemed "human enough" or at least "useful enough". If Space Marines are adored because they were made by the Emperor (note that the Emperor himself never considered them anything else but living weapons) and the same man declared that Ogryn were humans (probably because he could use their absurd strength and resilience) who would question him? Ogryns and Ratlings serve within the Imperium armies since the Great Crusade. The Emperor, or at least a Primarch, must have granted them the right to live. On the same logic then Space Marines, they could be revered as angels but they are not.

Voss wrote:
I very much doubt we'll see 'imperial beastmen' again.

Except for that one model that was recently released, you mean?

 Trickstick wrote:
Just to clarify, I believe that abhumans are technically a different subspecies. Hence the name Homo Sapiens Gigantus, Rotundus, Minimus etc. That would mean that they could still breed with other subspecies, at least if you allow for anatomical differences. Also, they should produce fertile offspring.

I don't think that abhumans meet that definition then because as far as I'm aware it is impossible for humans and ratlings to breed, let alone humans and ogryn.

epronovost wrote:
The Emperor, or at least a Primarch, must have granted them the right to live. On the same logic then Space Marines, they could be revered as angels but they are not.

There is nothing in the lore that indicates that the emperor or any of the primarchs granted abhumans the right to live. I agree it is a plot hole, but that is what you get when you have stupid lore .

Space marines are revered as angels because they were created by the emperor himself, not because they are "superhuman" or mutants. Abhumans were not created by the emperor and have no such claim to fame.

w1zard wrote:

There is nothing in the lore that indicates that the emperor or any of the primarchs granted abhumans the right to live. I agree it is a plot hole, but that is what you get when you have stupid lore .

There is a branch of the Administratum that is deisgned specifically to deal with abhumans, their classification and their tithe. Since they are part of the Imperium since its inception, such a branch would have been designed by or at least with the aval of the Emperor, a Primarch or Malcador since they are the ones who designed the Imperium bureaucracy. Thus they knew about abhumans and were cool with them. Considering that many Legions, especially the Space Wolves, made use of Ogryns in combat, they do have the blessings of Primarchs.

epronovost wrote:
There is a branch of the Administratum that is deisgned specifically to deal with abhumans, their classification and their tithe. Since they are part of the Imperium since its inception, such a branch would have been designed by or at least with the aval of the Emperor, a Primarch or Malcador since they are the ones who designed the Imperium bureaucracy. Thus they knew about abhumans and were cool with them.

Still speculation, as this was never explicitly stated in the lore to my knowledge.

epronovost wrote:
Considering that many Legions, especially the Space Wolves, made use of Ogryns in combat, they do have the blessings of Primarchs.

Source please.

w1zard wrote:

I get it. I personally just don't think it should be a thing ANYWHERE in the Imperium because in my mind it clashes with the anti-mutant sentiment that is prevalent in all other parts of the lore. As I said I think it was just a flimsy excuse to get space hobbits/space dwarves/space ogres into the setting. It's ok if you disagree, I acknowledge that the official lore doesn't agree with my POV, I'm just stating my opinion.

Well, one's headfluff is headfluff exactly because it doesn't necessarily aligns with GW/BL loose canon.

For. ex. (not 40M proper, but Beast time - 'Throneworld' by Guy Haley) - terran Arbites tried to protect abhumans from freaking _SMs_ when BTs began purging them among freed ork captives. And IF CM _did_ listened to her and ordered BTs to stop.
"

On other hand earlier in same book it's mentioned that abhumans are NOT tolerated on Terra:

 Irbis wrote:

Voss wrote:
I very much doubt we'll see 'imperial beastmen' again.

Except for that one model that was recently released, you mean?

The necromunda mercenary? That lives in the underhive and does dirty jobs for people that aren't the imperium? Sure. Forgeworld can do whatever irrelevant one offs it wants that don't fit the definition of 'imperial beastmen.'

Voss wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Voss wrote:
I very much doubt we'll see 'imperial beastmen' again.

Except for that one model that was recently released, you mean?

The necromunda mercenary? That lives in the underhive and does dirty jobs for people that aren't the imperium? Sure. Forgeworld can do whatever irrelevant one offs it wants that don't fit the definition of 'imperial beastmen.'

Wrong, not only he wears what is clearly supposed to be IG armor, the blurb specifically refers to him as "sanctioned bounty hunter" and mentions while where he got Imperial license is unclear, he has one. So, unless he found IG uniform (that for some reason was perfectly tailored for a beastman, plating included) with license in back pocket it's clearly implied he not only worked for the Imperium, he did good enough job he was rewarded with official recognition. Then there is Blackstone Fortress, where beastmen wear the exact same style (if torn) and color clothing (and guns) as the ex-Imperial guardsmen, while it's much less clear there the implication is they were auxiliaries of the traitor IG, given the similarities...

Cool, you disagree with my very subjective opinion on a piece of lore that I think is stupid but you obviously don't. Want a medal?

When discussing lore, your opinion on how things should be done (Read: Fan-cannon), don't matter. Only how it is.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Cool, you disagree with my very subjective opinion on a piece of lore that I think is stupid but you obviously don't. Want a medal?

When discussing lore, your opinion on how things should be done (Read: Fan-cannon), don't matter. Only how it is.

Well there is plenty of wiggle room within 40k canon. It is extremely loose when compared to other settings. You can't exactly remove the entire concept of abhumans, but creating entire sectors where they are killed on sight is perfectly reasonable. The sheer scale of 40k makes so many things possible, without affecting established canon at all.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:

Cool, you disagree with my very subjective opinion on a piece of lore that I think is stupid but you obviously don't. Want a medal?

When discussing lore, your opinion on how things should be done (Read: Fan-cannon), don't matter. Only how it is.

Well there is plenty of wiggle room within 40k canon. It is extremely loose when compared to other settings. You can't exactly remove the entire concept of abhumans, but creating entire sectors where they are killed on sight is perfectly reasonable. The sheer scale of 40k makes so many things possible, without affecting established canon at all.

Oh for sure. There would be sectors where that happens, but there are also places, fringe worlds and the like, where even beastmen are accepted even if looked down upon.

w1zard wrote:
Modern cadians don't all have purple eyes. I've personally read novels where their eye colors were described as normal. If certain cadians have purple eyes it is most certainly confined to only a small segment of the population.

Read Cadian Blood then, most Cadian there have violet eyes, and one even question the lineage of a Cadian who misses two shots by asking him if he's sure that his mom had violet eyes.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
When discussing lore, your opinion on how things should be done (Read: Fan-cannon), don't matter. Only how it is.

I was merely giving my opinion and never pretended it was anything but subjective, but thanks for trying to tell me my opinion is wrong. Maybe the next time I go to a restaurant and don't like the food you can show up and tell me that I'm wrong and the food is delicious.

 Bobthehero wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Modern cadians don't all have purple eyes. I've personally read novels where their eye colors were described as normal. If certain cadians have purple eyes it is most certainly confined to only a small segment of the population.

Read Cadian Blood then, most Cadian there have violet eyes, and one even question the lineage of a Cadian who misses two shots by asking him if he's sure that his mom had violet eyes.

In "Forges of Mars" all of the Cadians were described as having normal eyes IIRC. Like I said, purple eyes shows a lineage that goes back to before Cadia was officially colonized by the Imperium, and is most likely only present in a small subset of the population. Perhaps even these "purple eyes" are all deployed together in a single formation, because you know... Imperium and all that.

The only time I remember Cadians actually being described as having purple eyes is when Lorgar came to Cadia during the great crusade... and I thought all of those people were wiped out after the Horus Heresy when Cadia was nuked from orbit.

w1zard wrote:
The only time I remember Cadians actually being described as having purple eyes is when Lorgar came to Cadia during the great crusade... and I thought all of those people were wiped out after the Horus Heresy when Cadia was nuked from orbit.

Lore wise, Cadians have been described as having purple eyes when their eyes were described at all. It's the case in Cadian Blood, which is a rather recent book, and its mentioned in the 5th edition codex of the Guards too. The mutation for purple eye was attributed to the proximity with the Eye of Terror which is of the same color in the Cadian sky. Even of the original population was completely exterminated, the colonists would have gained the same mutation very rapidely a bit like a mutation for bone density caused by a higher gravity would be exhibited by colonists of a high gravity world in a few generations.

epronovost wrote:
Lore wise, Cadians have been described as having purple eyes when their eyes were described at all. It's the case in Cadian Blood, which is a rather recent book, and its mentioned in the 5th edition codex of the Guards too. The mutation for purple eye was attributed to the proximity with the Eye of Terror which is of the same color in the Cadian sky.

Still doesn't explain why Cadians are portrayed with normal eyes in a very recent publication. The 5th edition guard codex was roughly a decade ago, that isn't ancient but it isn't new either, and there has been a lot of lore changes since then.

epronovost wrote:
Even of the original population was completely exterminated, the colonists would have gained the same mutation very rapidely a bit like a mutation for bone density caused by a higher gravity would be exhibited by colonists of a high gravity world in a few generations.

Speculation. I also think you overestimate how fast these mutations take place. Growing up on a high gravity world will make you a lot buffer than someone who did not, but it isn't going to start changing your DNA in any noticeable way for hundreds of years. You don't just have a few generations on a high gravity world and then BOOM ogryns. It is something that takes many thousands of years to happen.

w1zard wrote:
Still doesn't explain why Cadians are portrayed with normal eyes in a very recent publication. The 5th edition guard codex was roughly a decade ago, that isn't ancient but it isn't new either, and there has been a lot of lore changes since then.

Well a few question first. Was it from a well established author or from some new blood. New blood have a tendency to forget details about hte faction they are writing about. Was the eye color of the Cadians specified or was it that of only one character. Most books don't even describe the eye color of the characters because its a detail of very little importance. I couldn't tell you the eye color of Gaunt or Eisenhorn for example. Having no details doesn't mean the eyes are perfectly normal either. Finally, Cadian being described as having violet/purple eye was common knowledge for a long time. Cadian Blood itself is a rather recent publication about the Cadians.

Speculation. I also think you overestimate how fast these mutations take place. Growing up on a high gravity world will make you a lot buffer than someone who did not, but it isn't going to start changing your DNA in any noticeable way for hundreds of years. You don't just have a few generations on a high gravity world and then BOOM ogryns. It is something that takes many thousands of years to happen.

No but 10 000 years of continuous occupation is more than enough for such a change as it represent about 500 generations. Plus, being a small mutation brouht by Warp taint, you might actually get it and lose it through lack of exposure in a single lifespan.

epronovost wrote:
Well a few question first. Was it from a well established author or from some new blood...

Forges of Mars was written by Graham McNeill, who is most certainly not "new blood" by any stretch of the imagination.

epronovost wrote:
Finally, Cadian being described as having violet/purple eye was common knowledge for a long time. Cadian Blood itself is a rather recent publication about the Cadians.

Did Cadian blood say ALL Cadians had violet eyes or just "some"? Also, Cadian Blood is roughly a decade old too... this is somewhat dated lore.

epronovost wrote:
Plus, being a small mutation brouht by Warp taint, you might actually get it and lose it through lack of exposure in a single lifespan.

Speculation again, and that is not how mutations work.

w1zard wrote:

Did Cadian blood say ALL Cadians had violet eyes or just "some"? Also, Cadian Blood is roughly a decade old too... this is somewhat dated lore.

Yep, the quote above seems to indicated that all Cadians or at least the overhwelming majority of them have purple/violet eye. In Eisenhorn, Cadians can be differenciated from foreigners on the planet by the camo pattern of their clothes and their eye color. So the answer is definite yes to all of them or at least a vast majority.

What color were the eyes of the Cadian character in McNeil book btw and why did he mentioned such a detail?

Speculation again, and that is not how mutations work.

Indeed, but if Warp taint works a bit like radiation, it would not be impossible for a body to "heal" so possible for someone with a minor mutation to see it disappear a bit like a cancer being treated. Considering there is such a thing as cleansing rites, it doesn't seem far fetched. It's pure speculation, but you have to recongnise that if the Warp caused the barbarous Cadian to have purple eyes, then modern Cadians certainly do to since they live in the same environment for about as much time and more then enough for important mutations to occur let alone a small one.

In Desert Raiders, by Lucien Suban, there's a Tallarn with Cadian heritage who has a purple eyes.

w1zard wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Lore wise, Cadians have been described as having purple eyes when their eyes were described at all. It's the case in Cadian Blood, which is a rather recent book, and its mentioned in the 5th edition codex of the Guards too. The mutation for purple eye was attributed to the proximity with the Eye of Terror which is of the same color in the Cadian sky.

Still doesn't explain why Cadians are portrayed with normal eyes in a very recent publication. The 5th edition guard codex was roughly a decade ago, that isn't ancient but it isn't new either, and there has been a lot of lore changes since then.

epronovost wrote:
Even of the original population was completely exterminated, the colonists would have gained the same mutation very rapidely a bit like a mutation for bone density caused by a higher gravity would be exhibited by colonists of a high gravity world in a few generations.

Speculation. I also think you overestimate how fast these mutations take place. Growing up on a high gravity world will make you a lot buffer than someone who did not, but it isn't going to start changing your DNA in any noticeable way for hundreds of years. You don't just have a few generations on a high gravity world and then BOOM ogryns. It is something that takes many thousands of years to happen.

It could be the genes required to make huge dudes exist in general population, but they are rare enough to generally mix together in the correct combination to produce an ogryn. Especially without selection pressure of high gravity removing the individuals carrying the other genes that don't fare as well on high grav worlds. This is especially true if these genes are tied to an environmental trigger that requires high gravity to be expressed to their greatest potential.

epronovost wrote:
Yep, the quote above seems to indicated that all Cadians or at least the overhwelming majority of them have purple/violet eye. In Eisenhorn, Cadians can be differenciated from foreigners on the planet by the camo pattern of their clothes and their eye color. So the answer is definite yes to all of them or at least a vast majority.

What color were the eyes of the Cadian character in McNeil book btw and why did he mentioned such a detail?

I'm not sure what page it was on, but there is an entire regiment of Cadian shock troops on board the Speranza, and to the best of my knowledge not once was any mention of "violet eyes" made, not even when the main characters were being described in detail.

Also, here is an official piece of art from GW with a cadian trooper who has blue/grey eyes. It is kind of blurry, but they are very obviously not "purple" eyes.

EDIT: Another piece of official art that shows a Cadian with brown eyes.

Did anyone else giggle at the burn dressing on the left hand of the guardsman with the plasma gun?

w1zard wrote:

I'm not sure what page it was on, but there is an entire regiment of Cadian shock troops on board the Speranza, and to the best of my knowledge not once was any mention of "violet eyes" made, not even when the main characters were being described in detail.

Not having any mention of a detail like the eye color of a character doesn't mean anything. They could have a wide variety of color. In fact, why describe their eye color if ALL Cadians have been described in the past as having purple eyes? It's a tiny detail and it doesn't need to be repeated all the time. In the same fashion, Space Marines aren't described as being 7 foot tall. In fact, in many books they don't even state clearly what's their size. Sometime they don't even put emphasis on the fact they are taller than your avergae human. We just know this from other publications.

Also, here is an official piece of art from GW with a cadian trooper who has blue/grey eyes. It is kind of blurry, but they are very obviously not "purple" eyes.

EDIT: Another piece of official art that shows a Cadian with brown eyes.

You can't see the color of the eye of on either drawing clearly. In fact, you can only see the pupil of their eye and you can't even see their iris. It's rare to see a drawing where the eye color of the character is visible. In most cases, the drawing simply isn't precise enough or is in black and white. I think you are grasping at straw right now. I have a few quotes about the Cadians having purple eyes in majority if not totality and you have a two impresice art work, one of which who's blurry and not in "real color" (it's been washed grey like its frequently done in war images and films to give them an aged look and represent the dust in the air) and the abscence of a description of the eye of a Cadian character. I don't think that Cadian purple eyes have been retconned at all.

Looks pretty purple to me.

As far as i can tell no one has ever said all cadians have purple eyes, just that it is a colour that is notably only seen in cadians,

could be a recessive like blue eyes so is commonly in the background genetics but not seen often or it could be a family thing, either related to the original colony or possibly as something that appears in the family over time so familiess that have been there longer have a higher % of purple