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Andykp wrote:
I don’t agree that all non mundane abilities rely on the warp or that it’s anywhere near as clear cut as you say. It’s only really the imperium and chaos who have this concept of reality and the warp, eldar have very much blurred boundaries on it, living and travelling with in it but not and using non mundane powers in every day life and hiding from the warp based presences. ORKS generate their own psychic fields and energies and have little concept of the warp an very minimal interference from it. Possession and and warp breaches etc by and or of ORKS is rare, epecially nowadays.

I see plenty of ambiguity in the setting to allow the belief that the hive mind is in no way warp based. It doesn’t have to be black and white, I am not asking you to believe anything, I’m just telling you how I see it. I clearly don’t see what you do in it. So sorry i don’t agree it makes no sense as the basis of your argument is flawed.

None of what you have stated there makes a difference, for the warp to have an effect you do not need to be aware of it, it is always there in the background but to take your examples..

Orks: Background psychic field causes tangible effects on the real world, psychic field, warp based, every ork has a connection to the psychic field by design (Ref:beast arises)

Eldar: I dont really need to explain this one, they use psychic powers and are inherently psychic in nature just as the orks are, which makes sense as they are both created by the same race.

Hive mind: every creature is connected to the background psychic field, just like the orks, every creature is on some level, psychic (telepathy), they draw power from an entity that resides within the warp, the only energy that exists within the warp is.... warp energy, so if these telepaths are projecting into the warp which forms a gestalt entity that projects its will and "energy" into the real world, there is ZERO chance that this is not warp based energy and such thinking comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of how the warp works, which is totally fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
The Warp, as a parallel universe, could possibly be present everywhere, however, it is a reflexion of the galaxy it is more or less "tied to". Maybe in a galaxy devoid of all life as the tyranids', or that would prove not as war waging as ours, or where inhabitants have full control over their psychic capabilities, would the warp be apprehended differently and have other effects on real time universe.

As for travelling into other galaxies through the warp, I see no reasons it shoud not be doable but Humanity, for example, as neither technology nor free room to settle such and endeavour: they're busy surviving endless warfare and warp travel in their own galaxy is already random and dangerous enough...

I don't claim to be an expert of the tyranids, but I'd take the "warp stained" stance. I understand the hive mind as a colllective counscienceness acting as a single being. In spite of being a very particular one - a gestalt counscienceness-, the use of psychic powers or link originates from the warp no matter what, just as an eldar has his soul and conscienceness on the one side, and his ability to use "magic" on the other.

The shadow in the warp can also be a proof of that in a way: it is a sideeffect of the hive mind's warp reflection being so imposing it blackens out the warp to other races, which means it does have some link with the warp.

Dry well put. I agree on the hive mind, and the description of he shadow in the warp is exactly how I see it. Ambiguity in the setting is good. Not everything needs to be black and white.

I agree with you on that, not everything needs to be black and white, this is not that case however, if its not natural, its the warp, that is one of the central tenets of the entire setting and about as black and white as you cant get

I think quite frankly, the nature of the Tyranid Hive Mind has been written (often poorly) in several ways and shapes; which leaves us grasping in mild frustration for something that reconciles it with the harder fluff in existence. We are told that it cuts off the Warp, but is not part of the Warp. We see tyranid synaptic networks being cut off by anti-warp methods, yet no Tyranid Daemons. Tyranid psykers with no corruption or reliance on warp energy. Frankly, the whole thing is a mess. The only way in which I can begin to try and reconcile what is essentially, just poor writing, is to try and explain it away by the different nature of the Tyranids and how they function differently to most other races.


We usually see most living things with emotions having a 'soul', that is to say, a presence in the Warp through which they can interface with the Warp. The 'Shadow' in the Warp must therefore be the 'soul' of the Tyranid Hive Mind. But for whatever reason, likely due to the fact that it is biologically a gestalt hive consciousness, it cannot control that 'soul' in the warp. It's present, but not directed. So the Hive Mind = the physical brain/thought processes, the Shadow is its soul.

I like to picture the Tyranid soul/Shadow as a bubble in the ocean. The bubble can get bigger and bigger, with a tougher and harder membrane as more creatures join together to generate the Hive Mind it comes from. The size of the bubble/soul/Shadow and the size of the Hive Mind are directly paralleled after all, they grow and diminish together. The bubble/soul/Shadow can envelop other things (psykers, etc) around it as it gets bigger, naturally cutting off or making far more difficult their ability to connect to the ocean water(warp) outside of the bubble. The Hive Mind might even be aware of what's going on outside the bubble; in an extremely limited fashion. Being a bubble, it can get bigger and smaller, it can move around (matching the movement of the Hive Mind in the physical world), but it cannot interact with anything it hasn't enveloped or which hasn't initiated the contact from the outside.

But the Tyranid Hive Mind cannot consciously reach outside the bubble in a specific direction; to draw from the external energy of the Warp or interact with other Warp entities. The collective soul of the Tyranid, due to its gestalt, composite nature, simply cannot be focused in that way. Like in the same way normal animals cannot deliberately control any warp presence they might have, it doesn't have sufficient sense of self or ego.The Hive Mind might create a physical beast capable of drawing upon the raw warp energy the soul/Shadow/bubble contains whilst it is present within the bubble, but that animal couldn't fall to the Chaos Gods or the like; because it never connected to anything outside that bubble in the first place.

So the Tyranid Hive Mind exists in the physical world, and the Shadow is its soul. But like a beast, it cannot control the warp potential of the soul in the same manner as a human or eldar. The soul/Shadow is simply present and static.

Leastways, the only way I've been able to square all the existing fluff!

 Ketara wrote:


<snip mental and linguistic gymnastics

Or the easiest and most parsimonious explanation is to go back to the 2nd and 3rd edition paradigm which actually was internally consistent:

The Hive Mind is the gestalt soul of all Tyranids. The Hive Mind is the racial god/embodiment of all Tyranids. That is why individual daemons do not harass the Tyranid ships as they travel through the warp (yes, they are explicitly described as using the warp for travel in 2nd edition, 3rd edition, and BFG sources). Individual daemons cannot harass a warp god because it is an issue of scale and power. Daemons are just tiny autonomous splinters of their god or independently existing splinters of their own if unaligned to any of the big 4 gods. The fragment of the Hive Mind that is a Hive Fleet is still far beyond any individual daemon in size and strength.

The Shadow in the Warp is basically the smothering psychic presence of the Hive Mind through the Hive Fleet. The presence of a daemon of Khorne induces bloodthirsty thoughts and visions in those around it, so similarly the Tyranid Hive Mind presence has an effect on those around it. That is why Astropathic messages get blocked or distorted and why psykers trying to use their powers are liable to go mad.

The Tyranids channel the warp for their powers. However they are not infallible just as they are not infallible in their physical shooting. They can make mistakes and therefore end up getting psychic feedback or otherwise burning themselves out just like any psyker.

The individual Tyranids are all cells in the greater being that is the Hive Mind. Like individual cells, the individual Tyranids can make local decisions and can make mistakes and can die. However just as a human is not appreciably diminished by the loss of skin cells they shed each day, or the number of old blood cells that die, the Hive Mind is not appreciably diminished by the loss of individual Tyranids or their souls. The Tyranids are basically one organism, with its soul the Hive Mind, and its body all the Hive Fleets.

It wasn't until later editions when various GW writers in an attempt to be unique and make their "mark" on the background started introducing their own contradictory takes on things including the abomination of the narvhal.

The problem with the above is the inherently poorly defined nature of the warp and tyranids in 40K, combined with the fact that for every codex entry or BL scenario you can pull to support the above will have at least two separate contradictory theories from elsewhere. I make no pretence that my answer is 'the answer'; but I think it reconciles as many elements as possible (certainly more than the 2nd edition take on things).

Ultimately, you can sit there and say you think the modern fluff is silly, but once it's canon, you kind of have to accept it and move on. Anything else is just headcanon.

 Ketara wrote:
The problem with the above is the inherently poorly defined nature of the warp and tyranids in 40K, combined with the fact that for every codex entry or BL scenario you can pull to support the above will have at least two separate contradictory theories from elsewhere. I make no pretence that my answer is 'the answer'; but I think it reconciles as many elements as possible (certainly more than the 2nd edition take on things).

Ultimately, you can sit there and say you think the modern fluff is silly, but once it's canon, you kind of have to accept it and move on. Anything else is just headcanon.

The "modern" fluff is inconsistent even within itself as the different Codex writers keep pulling the fluff in their own personal direction. The 2nd edition was far more internally consistent rather than introducing new FTL concepts, or some other supernatural mechanism other than the warp.

Nor do I find your version reconciles things as it also flies in the face of what is explicitly known about the Hive Mind. Namely that it is not physical and is in fact purely in the psychic realm aka the warp. There is no single physical brain or Tyranid organism that controls the Tyranids. The destruction of one Hive Fleet does not diminish other separate Hive Fleets.

The Shadow in the Warp and the Hive Mind are not separate things. The Shadow is what is experienced by other races and is a functional byproduct of the presence of the Hive Mind in the vicinity.

Iracundus wrote:

The "modern" fluff is inconsistent even within itself as the different Codex writers keep pulling the fluff in their own personal direction. The 2nd edition was far more internally consistent rather than introducing new FTL concepts, or some other supernatural mechanism other than the warp.

I think we agree on that.

Nor do I find your version reconciles things as it also flies in the face of what is explicitly known about the Hive Mind. Namely that it is not physical and is in fact purely in the psychic realm aka the warp. There is no single physical brain or Tyranid organism that controls the Tyranids. The destruction of one Hive Fleet does not diminish other separate Hive Fleets.

The flip side of the coin is that thoughts/conscious minds aren't warp entities either (that's souls). The minute that you assume the 'Hive Mind' in the sentient biological 'conscious mind' sense coalesces in the Warp, we have to assume that it is capable of perceiving the future, fighting with other warp entities there, empowering 'daemons' and generally indulging the various warp-based shennanigans that every other large scale warp entity does. Not to mention that it controlling its meat puppets would effectively have to function according to the exact same rules/effect as any other form of daemonic possession. Which clearly is not the case.

Furthermore, if we assume that the Hive Mind is one giant gestalt singular warp entity across all the Fleets, we run into problems with regards to the behaviours of Hive Fleets attacking each other (why would they do that if they were controlled by the same Hive Mind?), or ever being able to be corrupted by Chaos when still functional in smaller units/formations (as we have seen happen on ships submerged in the Warp) and so on.

The problem we consequently face is that the 'Hive Mind' appears to be both of the Warp, and not of the Warp. It has some of the characteristics (getting cut off by local Nulls, for example), but not all of them (when was the last time you saw a Tyranid channelling warp energy to grow an extra limb from nowhere out of warpstuff?). And that's the primary problem here. We have to justify why some of the rules apply, but only some.

The only logical answer with the evidence to hand is that Hive Minds are somehow rooted in the physical universe as psychic entities of tremendous power (much like the Emperor), whilst not being in and of themselves, warp-based entities.

I'm fully aware it's something of a contradiction in terms, to have an incorporeal intangible psychic entity that isn't 100% plugged into the warp. But we have a single example that shows us it can work. When the World Eater Librarians pooled all their consciousnesses into one large entity to pull back Angron from the edge, that consciousness wasn't strictly a warp entity or daemon. It had a warp signature and is created by pooling psychic/warp powers. But it had biological roots (namely the bodies and minds of the librarians) and diminished in strength as they died. I consequiently think that's probably the line of thought we have to follow when trying to work out what the Hive Mind actually is.

I’m still not sold on it being black and white that stuff is either natural or the warp. Not at all, and don’t even get me started on the pure garbage that was the beast series. What a massive disappointment and utter load of rubbish. I will stick to the 1st edition books as the only reliable source of information on ORKS.

ORKS generate a psychic field through their innate abilities. It’s not specifically that each ORK is tapping into the warp without knowing it. Weird boyz are perfectly happy and safe if left alone and not near other ORKS, other psykers are not as they are darling in the warp. Weird boyz are conduits for ORK psychic energy. More like static electricity, hence why copper staffs work to earth them.

As for the hive mind being a god of the warp, that just makes tyranids another chaos faction of sorts and draws away from their alien-ness. I’m glad they have muddied the waters in it. The current writing, especially in the black library is hopeless at capturing the insanity of the warp. The best I’ve seen was Andy chambers in the dark eldar books, and that was a glimpse of a leak of the warp.

So sorry, still not convinced, and saying it is a central tenet of the setting doesn’t make it so. I’ve been playing this game 30 years or so and the central tenet of the setting has always been ambiguity. That’s why I believe it has endured.

The Hive Mind is a god of the Tyranids. The key difference is that the Tyranids act as one unified race while all the other races of the galaxy are individuals so their souls don't act in unison. The Chaos gods are conglomerations of dead souls. The Hive Mind is the union of all the living souls of individual Tyranids. The Tyranid race is the incarnate meat body of their "god". The term "god" is somewhat of a misnomer because the Tyranid race is basically an entity spanning the material and warp, rather than a conventional warp god that is wholly in the warp. There are no daemons of the Tyranids because the Hive Mind doesn't need to coalesce unstable warp forms when it has stable meat bodies. It doesn't need to offer any gifts to get realspace individuals to act for it, because it already is incarnate.

For those that remember the original Inquisitor novel and the Hydra conspiracy, the conspiracy was attempting to do the equivalent for humanity by psychically binding all humanity or at least large chunks of it into one cohesive gestalt whole. The idea was the combined psychic potential of humanity acting in perfect unison would be able to scour the warp of daemons and destroy any aliens through sheer strength (of numbers if not of individual psyker ability).

Citing length of time following GW IP is not really evidence and in any case I have just as long a duration. Ambiguity was only unintentional just as with any young IP. As IPs survive and age, inevitability more details and rules get laid down about how the fictional universe works or what happened in the past. The inconsistencies we see is due to GW's inability and unwillingness to have stricter editing and continuity checking.

Iracundus wrote:
The Hive Mind is a god of the Tyranids. The key difference is that the Tyranids act as one unified race while all the other races of the galaxy are individuals so their souls don't act in unison.

Incorrect. Different strands of different Hive Fleets fight. See Ciaphas Cain, Hive Fleet Hydra, etc.

The Chaos gods are conglomerations of dead souls.

Not true. You shove enough dead souls together and you can make a warp entity; but not all warp entities are derived from that source and certainly not the Chaos Four. Slaanesh didn't come into existence because loads of Eldar died at once and had their souls coalesce.

The Hive Mind is the union of all the living souls of individual Tyranids.

A soul is a presence in the warp. Which makes it debatable whether or not the likes of a Hormagaunt has a soul; any more than a grox. Frankly, this is headcanon.

The Tyranid race is the incarnate meat body of their "god". The term "god" is somewhat of a misnomer because the Tyranid race is basically an entity spanning the material and warp, rather than a conventional warp god that is wholly in the warp.

This correlates with what I said above. The Tyranids are in this weird spot with a foot in both doors; much like the Emperor was back in the day.

There are no daemons of the Tyranids because the Hive Mind doesn't need to coalesce unstable warp forms when it has stable meat bodies.

I'm pretty damn sure that if the Hive Mind could throw endless bodies made of warp energy at an enemy and save on losing precious biomass; it would do it. You're headcanoning here.

For those that remember the original Inquisitor novel and the Hydra conspiracy, the conspiracy was attempting to do the equivalent for humanity by psychically binding all humanity or at least large chunks of it into one cohesive gestalt whole. The idea was the combined psychic potential of humanity acting in perfect unison would be able to scour the warp of daemons and destroy any aliens through sheer strength (of numbers if not of individual psyker ability).

Aye, I remember that one. The Inquisitor trilogy, right?

i’m still not sold on it being black and white that stuff is either natural or the warp. Not at all, and don’t even get me started on the pure garbage that was the beast series. What a massive disappointment and utter load of rubbish. I will stick to the 1st edition books as the only reliable source of information on ORKS.

Ha so true, the beast series did have a couple of gems though, first couple of books were good enough then it went down hill sharply, but it did confirm that orks do have a background psychic field like they have always had, the only difference was the tech priest was able to find the organ responsible and deduced that they were clearly designed.

ORKS generate a psychic field through their innate abilities. It’s not specifically that each ORK is tapping into the warp without knowing it. Weird boyz are perfectly happy and safe if left alone and not near other ORKS, other psykers are not as they are darling in the warp. Weird boyz are conduits for ORK psychic energy. More like static electricity, hence why copper staffs work to earth them.

Thats exactly how it works in the beast series, they did not change that, killing a weird boy just causes a psychic backlash due to the sheer amount of waagh power running through it.

As for the hive mind being a god of the warp, that just makes tyranids another chaos faction of sorts and draws away from their alien-ness. I’m glad they have muddied the waters in it. The current writing, especially in the black library is hopeless at capturing the insanity of the warp. The best I’ve seen was Andy chambers in the dark eldar books, and that was a glimpse of a leak of the warp.

Not quite, not all powerful entities are warp gods within the warp and chaos needs the warp to exist but the warp does not need chaos to exist, so the hive mind just being a mega powerful warp entity does not mean its a chaos god at all, even the chaos gods are not actually gods in the traditional sense.

So sorry, still not convinced, and saying it is a central tenet of the setting doesn’t make it so. I’ve been playing this game 30 years or so and the central tenet of the setting has always been ambiguity. That’s why I believe it has endured.

It is ONE of the central tenets of the setting, if you dont want to believe it then ok, fine, but you need to provide examples and alternatives for how non mundane abilities work and happen, one of the things people like to throw about is how inconsistent this setting is, which is actually wrong, its extremely consistent and has been for a very long time, this is likely due to people not knowing the difference between a plot filled in and a retcon, another thing that people like to throw around is ambiguity, again the vast majority of the setting is not ambiguous, the tiny minority is and that is usually events talked about in an overarching manner such as "battles" or ancient history like the war in heaven.

Slaanesh did form from dead Eldar souls. They coalesced over time as per the 2nd edition Eldar Codex quote:

Yet it was within the warp that the destruction of the Eldar race took shape. It was here amidst the swirling psychic energy that their corruption became manifest. Within the psychic other-realm of warp space their departing spirits began to coalesce into a gestalt consciousness. What an unimaginably foul and sickening mind it was that the Eldar raised unknowingly in the warp...What the Eldar could only realise too late was that they had created a god in their own image, a god grown immense and potent upon the rich fodder of the Eldar spirit.

2nd edition Eldar Codex, p. 14

Similarly the other big 3 were born from the souls or fragments of souls of humanity as per the original Realms of Chaos. Human souls dissolve but those with strong passions don't entirely dissolve and the fragments embodying those passions coalesce just as the Eldar souls did. All the big 4 Chaos gods are born essentially from the souls of the dead, then further feed on the acts of worship and devotion by their devotees which feed the god psychic energy.

As for the Tyranids, all the Tyranids have souls, that then make up the braid that is perceived as the Hive Mind of the Hive Fleet when Eldar psykers use their witch-sight, which views souls.

Where the distortion weapons hit directly, voidspawn exploded, torn apart by the forces at work within them. Others were pulled off their feet and dragged wholly through the veil that separated this world from the next. Hundreds were sent into the world of nightmares this way. The sense of horror built until Iyanna thought she would collapse, and then the portals slammed shut. Iyanna could still sense the enemy on the other side of the thin veil of reality. Torn from their hive mind's great rope of being, the creatures briefly showed as feeble fibres on the skein, before winking out.

Valedor by Guy Haley, p. 18

That quote depicts the fighting on Iyanden. The Wraithguard had fired and dispatched various Tyranids into the warp. They are not all going to be synapse creatures. Therefore even the expendable Tyranids have souls, albeit feeble ones. In the 40k paradigm, all 40K organisms have souls of varying potency (or even negative potency if one talks Pariahs) depending on their psychic sensitivity.

We can see from the below quote that the view of the great braid is an actual view that Iyanna sees :

Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon’s true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna instead saw was the reality of its soul.

It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet’s arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun.
She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreamed dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance.

Against this vista flickered the souls of eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole. She stared at its brilliance. Unlike her passionless dead warriors, who felt nought but the echoes of wrath at the sight, she was fascinated by the beauty on display. She thought, if only such a thing could be tamed it would drive out She Who Thirsts forever. If only its hunger was for things other than the meat and blood of worlds…

Wraithflight by Guy Haley

The different braids and coils she perceives are the different hive fleets.

Yes, it is said the hive fleets can even fight each other. But that seems to be a process of testing, and only the strongest most fit for purpose survive. That is somewhat analogous to how real human white blood cells get selected for within the body within the thymus. Those that are not good enough are killed off.

At the same time the latest Tyranid Codex depicts the Hive Fleets helping each other, showing that their interactions are not limited to direct competition or testing against each other. Hive Fleet Leviathan left defenseless worlds behind specifically for Hive Fleet Kronos to feed off of since Kronos seems dedicated to fighting daemons and closing warp rifts (8th Tyranid Codex, p. 37).

So all of the stuff I previously stated is more than mere "head canon" as some are so fond of resorting to as an attack, but actually backed up by sources as cited above.

Iracundus wrote:
Slaanesh did form from dead Eldar souls. They coalesced over time as per the 2nd edition Eldar Codex quote:

Yet it was within the warp that the destruction of the Eldar race took shape. It was here amidst the swirling psychic energy that their corruption became manifest. Within the psychic other-realm of warp space their departing spirits began to coalesce into a gestalt consciousness. What an unimaginably foul and sickening mind it was that the Eldar raised unknowingly in the warp...What the Eldar could only realise too late was that they had created a god in their own image, a god grown immense and potent upon the rich fodder of the Eldar spirit.

2nd edition Eldar Codex, p. 14

Similarly the other big 3 were born from the souls or fragments of souls of humanity as per the original Realms of Chaos.

The Slaanesh thing has several things stated as ingredients in more recent publications IIRC; including both the souls of the dead and current spiritual excesses of the living. It's a composite affair. Andt...errr....you're referencing a book designed for Warhammer Fantasy in 1988 as proof of the formation of the Chaos Gods in Warhammer 40K?[i] Not sure I'm buying that.

Therefore even the expendable Tyranids have souls, albeit feeble ones. In the 40k paradigm, all 40K organisms have souls of varying potency (or even negative potency if one talks Pariahs) depending on their psychic sensitivity.

I can go with that interpretation. It works. I like it.

Yes, it is said the hive fleets can even fight each other. But that seems to be a process of testing, and only the strongest most fit for purpose survive. That is somewhat analogous to how real human white blood cells get selected for within the body within the thymus. Those that are not good enough are killed off.

At the same time the latest Tyranid Codex depicts the Hive Fleets helping each other, showing that their interactions are not limited to direct competition or testing against each other. Hive Fleet Leviathan left defenseless worlds behind specifically for Hive Fleet Kronos to feed off of since Kronos seems dedicated to fighting daemons and closing warp rifts (8th Tyranid Codex, p. 37).

Sure. But you haven't evidenced the primary claim; namely that they're all controlled by one central Hive God/Oversoul/whatever you choose to call it that makes them all act 'as a unified race' with one mind/intent. All we've seen is that some tyranids work together, whilst some other ones fight. The reasons for this are up in the air, far as I know.

I'm happy to concede if your version is the case. I don't own the current codex so I wouldn't know if that's now stated explicitly. But as of right now, far as I know, you're just putting your own spin/interpretation at this stage. Which is cool but subjective. Unless you can give me a source?

So all of the stuff I previously stated is more than mere "head canon" as some are so fond of resorting to as an attack, but actually backed up by sources as cited above.

Grow a thicker skin. I'm just pointing out where you're jumping to conclusions without having provided evidence. If you've got it, I'm happy to walk back. In the most civil way, this is a discussion about nerdy toy soldier universes; if you can't handle a simple disagreement without characterising it as an 'attack', you probably shouldn't bother engaging.

Read more carefully the quote from Wraithflight where the coils of the hive fleet, themselves formed from the threads of the individual Tyranids, are perceived as then joining up with those from other fleets into a greater whole, a greater entity. If one actually reads the whole story, Iyanna is actually perceived by the Hive Mind which calls out her name. Iyanna quails in terror because she also senses the Hive Mind is angry at her for her actions against past fleets, distinct and separate from the current fleet of the story Wraithflight. That in itself disproves the belief that hive fleets are separate entities.

The Realms of Chaos books are still relevant unless directly contradicted and overwritten. Simply because fluff is old does not suddenly make it invalid. Some details about the background have not been mentioned in editions yet that does not suddenly mean those never happened. Those books were written to both WHFB and 40K. The origins of the big 3, coalescing from the fragments of human souls, is internally consistent with the quoted Eldar Codex narrator account of the coalescing of Slaanesh from souls. It shows that is how warp gods form.

Iracundus wrote:
Read more carefully the quote from Wraithflight where the coils of the hive fleet, themselves formed from the threads of the individual Tyranids, are perceived as then joining up with those from other fleets into a greater whole, a greater entity. If one actually reads the whole story, Iyanna is actually perceived by the Hive Mind which calls out her name. Iyanna quails in terror because she also senses the Hive Mind is angry at her for her actions against past fleets, distinct and separate from the current fleet of the story Wraithflight. That in itself disproves the belief that hive fleets are separate entities.

The perception of one in-Universe character doesn't amount to much, I'm afraid. It could well be that she was looking at just the one Hive Mind (of several out there) which was spread across several fleets. It's a bit like how you have that one Mechanicus quote about Ork psychic fields and technology; it might be true, but it also might just be the limited perception of the character in question. Guilliman thought Lorgar was doing alright just before Calth, you know?

The Realms of Chaos books are still relevant unless directly contradicted and overwritten.

No. I'm afraid I'm actually not going to go along with that. I completely understand and agree that old fluff can still be valid; but we're talking specifically about a book designed for Warhammer Fantasy here. Not 40K. I'm aware that several of the books back then had a degree of tongue in cheek 'Teehee, look at this picture of a ornately armoured futuristic chap, wonder where he could be from?' aspect to them (I'm looking at you Liber Chaotica).

But Games Workshop more or less nailed down officially sometime back that Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K were separate universes. And Realms of Chaos is Warhammer Fantasy. You can choose to believe that it's relevant if you like, but I'm afraid I'm just not biting on that one. I can go with Rogue Trader books, or 2nd edition codices, but obscure references buried in Warhammer Fantasy books from the eighties are too far for me.

The perception of one in-Universe character doesn't amount to much, I'm afraid. It could well be that she was looking at just the one Hive Mind (of several out there) which was spread across several fleets. It's a bit like how you have that one Mechanicus quote about Ork psychic fields and technology; it might be true, but it also might just be the limited perception of the character in question. Guilliman thought Lorgar was doing alright just before Calth, you know?

Your kind of right here, one account does not add up to much, but grains of sand eventually form a heap, so in regards to the tech priests comments it is entirely fair to say its limited by his experience but from the outside looking in as observers of the universe, we know he is right as its been stated other places at other times and is simply a slightly more detailed explanation than we have had previously.

No. I'm afraid I'm actually not going to go along with that. I completely understand and agree that old fluff can still be valid; but we're talking specifically about a book designed for Warhammer Fantasy here. Not 40K. I'm aware that several of the books back then had a degree of tongue in cheek 'Teehee, look at this picture of a ornately armoured futuristic chap, wonder where he could be from?' aspect to them (I'm looking at you Liber Chaotica).

But Games Workshop more or less nailed down officially sometime back that Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K were separate universes. And Realms of Chaos is Warhammer Fantasy. You can choose to believe that it's relevant if you like, but I'm afraid I'm just not biting on that one. I can go with Rogue Trader books, or 2nd edition codices, but obscure references buried in Warhammer Fantasy books from the eighties are too far for me.

Ha! I was at games day when that claim was made, and it was just as wrong then as it is now, since GD2006 (IIRC) GW amply demonstrated that both universes were connected through the warp with things slipping through from time to time, most recently is the Liber chaotica actually turning up in the 40k universe with an actual page of the one written in the fantasy universe being shown in a codex, that is showing a connection in 2019, that quote needs to die and go away since actions speak louder than words and GWs actions show a connection between the two.

Just to be mega mega clear as some people simply do not understand, the fantasy universe is a totally distinct and separate universe from the 40k, in the exact same manner as the warp is from the 40k universe, however the warp is connected to all realities and dimensions and sometimes things can pass through from one to the other, a spear from fantasy would have no impact on the setting and not even be noted, but a chainsword from 40k is considered a deamonic weapon in fantasy.

Other than that, yeah I get what your saying.

The two volume Realms of Chaos STD and LatD was written for both universes. There are sections there on Illuminati and Sensei, which is a purely 40k not WHFB thing. The first account of the Fal of the Eldar also is found in the Reams Chaos books. There are rules for rewards for serving the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. There are Legion warband tables with armaments ranging from conversion beakers to plasma pistols. There are separate sections for the Chaos Wastes and separate ones specifically for daemon worlds.

They were dual use books at a time when the IP was more explicitly linked. However there were plenty of entire sections of written text with 40k exclusive stuff. To even attempt to dismiss them as purely WHFB only shows that someone has never actually read them.




From Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned. Does that look like a WHFB reference to you?

Iracundus wrote:
The two volume Realms of Chaos STD and LatD was written for both universes.,....

You're right. I looked through a copy of Realms of Chaos, and skimmed through without seeing anything 40K related. Upon seeing the above, I've just gone back to check, and twenty pages of the three hundred odd are indeed for 40K. My bad there.

A lot more than twenty pages were 40k. Twenty pages may have been pure 40k. But all the attribute tables, powers, artefacts, beastaries etc are dual use, back then the games systems were entirely interchangeable. So if you read those 40k only pages they reference tables and rules through out the book. They were an essential book to have if you played chaos in 40k. They had the army lists and rules for your army. They were the codex of the day. And they were the fantasy army book too. To try and down play the dual nature of the books is either ignorance or dishonest, and given you say you have access to those books it suggests the later.

Andykp wrote:
A lot more than twenty pages were 40k. Twenty pages may have been pure 40k. But all the attribute tables, powers, artefacts, beastaries etc are dual use, back then the games systems were entirely interchangeable. So if you read those 40k only pages they reference tables and rules through out the book. They were an essential book to have if you played chaos in 40k. They had the army lists and rules for your army. They were the codex of the day. And they were the fantasy army book too. To try and down play the dual nature of the books is either ignorance or dishonest, and given you say you have access to those books it suggests the later.

Guv, I admitted I was wrong. I just glanced at a copy on Scribd for my last post; and from the index it said 20 pages are 40K. If you're telling me there's more tucked away in all the various bits on dragon ogres or suchlike, that's cool. I haven't read them, because they, y'know, hint quite strongly at being fantasy based. I've no idea if the fluff on where the 3 other Gods come from has been updated since, so I'm happy to concede the point.

Regardless, I think I'm going to end this exchange there. You take disagreement as personal attack, and accuse me of being 'dishonest' when I'm literally conceding that you're right. I'm not looking for unpleasant interactions on here, and you seem to be paranoid to the extent that a friendly chat isn't going to happen.

 Ketara wrote:

Andykp wrote:
A lot more than twenty pages were 40k. Twenty pages may have been pure 40k. But all the attribute tables, powers, artefacts, beastaries etc are dual use, back then the games systems were entirely interchangeable. So if you read those 40k only pages they reference tables and rules through out the book. They were an essential book to have if you played chaos in 40k. They had the army lists and rules for your army. They were the codex of the day. And they were the fantasy army book too. To try and down play the dual nature of the books is either ignorance or dishonest, and given you say you have access to those books it suggests the later.

Guv, I admitted I was wrong. I just glanced at a copy on Scribd for my last post; and from the index it said 20 pages are 40K. If you're telling me there's more tucked away in all the various bits on dragon ogres or suchlike, that's cool. I haven't read them, because they, y'know, hint quite strongly at being fantasy based. I've no idea if the fluff on where the 3 other Gods come from has been updated since, so I'm happy to concede the point.

Regardless, I think I'm going to end this exchange there. You take disagreement as personal attack, and accuse me of being 'dishonest' when I'm literally conceding that you're right. I'm not looking for unpleasant interactions on here, and you seem to be paranoid to the extent that a friendly chat isn't going to happen.

Point taken and I apologise for being a grumpy bugger, venting real world stress on internet nonesense. Sorry. I think it’s is a problem of me not reading the time of your reply right, easy done with text but no excuse for my narky reply. End of the day it’s a game and I shouldn’t get as invested. Had just been having a heated discussion on brexit and it carried over.

I would highly reccomend reading both books by the way. Just as great books regardless of the rules in them.