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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
According to Reddit they were one of the top 4 factions of BAO with a 64% win rate, so I'd say pretty good!

I'd love to see the different lists they took, but by BCP sub is off. Clearly a couple GSC struggled a bit more than the others.

WLWWWW
WWWLWW

LWWWWL
LWWWLW

WWLLLW -- early success, but crashed at higher tables
LLLWWL -- really low tables

Yeah, I only use free BCP so it's gone for me too.

Atalan jackals with their 6" range grenades and the 3" deepstrike will kill everything within 6" of them, no exceptions.

Jackals are insanely good for their durability and movement alone. They'd be top tier even if they did no damage.

Wait didn't people said Attalan Jackals were like one of the worst units in the codex, and totally useless?

I remember that reviewer GSC proplayer saying it in his review.

 Galas wrote:
Wait didn't people said Attalan Jackals were like one of the worst units in the codex, and totally useless?

I remember that reviewer GSC proplayer saying it in his review.

They're pretty good for what they do. I think some people saw their stat line in the book and scratched their head.

I wonder which proplayer it was.

I'm eager to play against a GSC player after reading this, it looks like they have interesting gameplay.

 Galas wrote:
Wait didn't people said Attalan Jackals were like one of the worst units in the codex, and totally useless?

I remember that reviewer GSC proplayer saying it in his review.

If you only care about kill kill kill then outside of the demo bomb Jackals are useless.
If you play games that care about controlling objectives then Jackals are nice since they are tough for their points thanks to -1 to hit and are fast to get where they need to be.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Wait didn't people said Attalan Jackals were like one of the worst units in the codex, and totally useless?

I remember that reviewer GSC proplayer saying it in his review.

They're pretty good for what they do. I think some people saw their stat line in the book and scratched their head.

I wonder which proplayer it was.

One video Shuppet shared, I can't remember who it was but he had information about the playtesters and the codex before release.

Geoff Robinson (the guy who just won BAO) said that in his review.

However it was pre-codex and he was still new to the dex and I think he'd missed what makes Jackals good, I think he'd have a different answer today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Jackals without Demo would be laughably bad. Nowhere near top tier lol

Well I think they have autoguns ... going from str 3 rapid fire D 1 to having d6 battlecannon shots...Yikes. That is quite a gap there.

From my experience with them - they were a meta breaking army when they could 1 shot castellans with a made psychic test. Now that they changed the way that mechanic worked - they are just some tricky shenanigans with 1 OP stratagem. New chaos puts them to shame with their cheese.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Geoff Robinson (the guy who just won BAO) said that in his review.

However it was pre-codex and he was still new to the dex and I think he'd missed what makes Jackals good, I think he'd have a different answer today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Jackals without Demo would be laughably bad. Nowhere near top tier lol

Geoff plays ITC, therefor objectives have low value.
Even without Demo's they gain value in ETC style tournaments.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Geoff Robinson (the guy who just won BAO) said that in his review.

However it was pre-codex and he was still new to the dex and I think he'd missed what makes Jackals good, I think he'd have a different answer today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Jackals without Demo would be laughably bad. Nowhere near top tier lol

Yeah I wasn't trying to call him or you out or anything, I was just surprised that now people thinks they are overpowered.

I mean, normally is people something will be OP and it end ups fine, is strange for something to be called useless and end up OP.

 Galas wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Geoff Robinson (the guy who just won BAO) said that in his review.

However it was pre-codex and he was still new to the dex and I think he'd missed what makes Jackals good, I think he'd have a different answer today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Jackals without Demo would be laughably bad. Nowhere near top tier lol

Yeah I wasn't trying to call him or you out or anything, I was just surprised that now people thinks they are overpowered.

I mean, normally is people something will be OP and it end ups fine, is strange for something to be called useless and end up OP.

Oh I didn't think you were, was just clarifying and expanding.

It's pretty damn strong impact, but eats all your CP and is screenable. I wouldn't say its OP, it's OP vs people who don't know how to screen and that's usually the caliber people declaring such things broken.

Jackals are 5ppw with a 5+ save, built-in -1 to hit, 14" move, T4, and 2w bodies. They also deep strike for free. They are top tier without any guns due to these defensive stats alone.

There are few units in the game that can come anywhere close to this level of durability at 4ppw or 5ppw. T4 is huge. 2w per body is also huge as it means they don't suffer large morale penalties, and they soak up your opponent's precious 2 damage weapons on cheap 10pt, -1 to hit bodies. Bikes are cheap enough to the point where basically there are no weapons that kill them efficiently. Yes your opponent can shoot disintegrators or avenger gatling at them, but if they're wasting guns like that on T4, -1 to hit, 5ppw models, then you're already ahead.

I challenge you to come up with a screening unit that's more durable per point than 45 bikes. 60 plaguebearers might be more durable but they are no where near as fast. Anything else?

 slave.entity wrote:
Jackals are 5ppw with a 5+ save, built-in -1 to hit, 14" move, T4, and 2w bodies. They also deep strike for free. They are top tier without any guns due to these defensive stats alone.

There are few units in the game that can come anywhere close to this level of durability at 4ppw or 5ppw. T4 is huge. 2w per body is also huge as it means they don't suffer large morale penalties, and they soak up your opponent's precious 2 damage weapons on cheap 10pt, -1 to hit bodies. Bikes are cheap enough to the point where basically there are no weapons that kill them efficiently. Yes your opponent can shoot disintegrators or avenger gatling at them, but if they're wasting guns like that on T4, -1 to hit, 5ppw models, then you're already ahead.

I challenge you to come up with a screening unit that's more durable per point than 45 bikes. 60 plaguebearers might be more durable but they are no where near as fast. Anything else?

45 bikes would also make the bank account cry when you realise it's not even 1/4 of an army.

 slave.entity wrote:
Jackals are 5ppw with a 5+ save, built-in -1 to hit, 14" move, T4, and 2w bodies. They also deep strike for free. They are top tier without any guns due to these defensive stats alone.

There are few units in the game that can come anywhere close to this level of durability at 4ppw or 5ppw. T4 is huge. 2w per body is also huge as it means they don't suffer large morale penalties, and they soak up your opponent's precious 2 damage weapons on cheap 10pt, -1 to hit bodies. Bikes are cheap enough to the point where basically there are no weapons that kill them efficiently. Yes your opponent can shoot disintegrators or avenger gatling at them, but if they're wasting guns like that on T4, -1 to hit, 5ppw models, then you're already ahead.

I challenge you to come up with a screening unit that's more durable per point than 45 bikes. 60 plaguebearers might be more durable but they are no where near as fast. Anything else?

You know, you're right. I'm so used to them with the cost of Demo charges that I forgot that are 10ppm each without it. Points-per-wound isn't quite the same on multi wound models, but you know there isn't a lot of efficient anti-infantry with 2 damage so I guess that's not a massive factor. I take back what I said and will happily concede that I was wrong. They are a good unit even without the charges.

Dudeface wrote:

45 bikes would also make the bank account cry when you realise it's not even 1/4 of an army.

Seriously, that's US$495 retail.

In general GSC is a ridiculously expensive army to build.
$40 for 5, 7 point, acolytes is just mental.

Thats why I ended up selling my genestealer cult half of Overwatch overkill.

I mean, lovely models and all of that but pfff... no thanks.

 slave.entity wrote:
Jackals are 5ppw with a 5+ save, built-in -1 to hit, 14" move, T4, and 2w bodies. They also deep strike for free. They are top tier without any guns due to these defensive stats alone.

There are few units in the game that can come anywhere close to this level of durability at 4ppw or 5ppw. T4 is huge. 2w per body is also huge as it means they don't suffer large morale penalties, and they soak up your opponent's precious 2 damage weapons on cheap 10pt, -1 to hit bodies. Bikes are cheap enough to the point where basically there are no weapons that kill them efficiently. Yes your opponent can shoot disintegrators or avenger gatling at them, but if they're wasting guns like that on T4, -1 to hit, 5ppw models, then you're already ahead.

I challenge you to come up with a screening unit that's more durable per point than 45 bikes. 60 plaguebearers might be more durable but they are no where near as fast. Anything else?

.833 pts lost per generic marine bolter shot fired and .37 pts lost per generic guardsman lasgun shot fired. Vs. 1.185 pts lost per generic marine shot at a guardsman and .667 pts lost per generic guardsman shooting himself.

So they are definitely durable against small arms (and obscenely so if you can manage to make them Rusted Claw and get them in cover). The flip side, of course, is that they aren't killing anything in return. 10pts per shotgun is a terrible return (effectively giving them 40% - or 20% if orders are available - the firepower of generic guardsmen per point with half the max range) and using any of their normal weapons puts them way too close to the enemy. 12" range puts them one very easy charge away from being slapped around by almost anything in melee.

Yes they're fast enough to run away from a lot of threats, but if they need to shift an opponent's objective campers or hold their own objective against an attack, they're going to really struggle.

Still, I agree that they make pretty good sacrificial screens (especially if you need to push up) and fill FA slots nicely if you're going for a brigade.

Yep. The other issue I'm detecting with bikes is that many competitive cult or cult soup armies don't really have things to screen.

Bikes are great objective holders, great sacrificial bad-touchers for negating shooting on stuff that doesn't fly, and great units for move-blocking, completely zoning enemy deep strike, and general board control. But they do no damage so they're not contributing to your army's offensive output. And since GSC is focused on face-rush close combat damage and not shooting, many lists won't actually have a backline that needs such excellent screens to protect it.

I think one of the best uses of bikes is to use their amazing speed to spread out and simply control as much of the board with them as possible, pretty much the same way you'd use Nurglings, except far more durable and mobile. Deployed on the front lines, the 14" move every turn almost works as well as infiltrate. Better even, as late-game approaches. If your opponent has to spend any amount of resources to kill them, to move around them, or to avoid them to prevent bad touches or enable deep strike, then they've served their purpose.

But yeah they definitely don't make GSC any cheaper to play

A lot of people I heard saying that GSC-Guard was going to be really good, 'cause Guard, but that doesn't seem to have come to pass in favor of GSC-Tyranids.

I assume that loss of Catachan makes the difference?

Yeah, GSC simply has amazing face-rush CC that compliments Kraken's amazing face-rush CC. A guard element would usually be static which means you'd have to devote points to protecting it, and that sort of runs counter to what GSC is good at. Lack of Catachan and other guard stuff also hurts a lot compared to the synergies you get with more GSC.

 Galas wrote:
Thats why I ended up selling my genestealer cult half of Overwatch overkill.

I mean, lovely models and all of that but pfff... no thanks.

Assembly and painting is no picnic either, I dropped quite a bit of money on that army, bluetacked it together for a escalation league and only barely kept up assembling about 250 points a week. Now it's all sitting back unassembled slowly getting primed in the vague hope I find time to paint the little bastards.

That said, waiting on the start collecting to come out before I expand my infantry any further, I'm gonna save something on this damned army.


With bikes I've had absurdly good luck with people just being terrified by how fast I could push them across the board. 20 inch move on the first turn got some serious attention when you start them next to a ridgerunner. And my, they'd valiantly leave at least one model on the point at the end of the first turn every time. And accomplish nothing else. Though, I've debated if the sheer amount of panic fire they soak up is worth it or not.

Do you not run demo charges on the bikes? 5 charges with the rusted claw strat is a dead russ. Gives them more than enough damage output

Genestealer Cults are the least played 'core' faction for a few reasons.

1) It's a 'new' army. That is to say, it's a new army that isn't some variety of Space Marines. They always take a few editions to really pick up momentum.

2) It's one of the most expensive armies to pickup. It's a horde army with a range that's almost all new, meaning it's at the highest price range. It doesn't help that Acolytes are £25 for FIVE,when most effective lists require about 20 or so due to their extremely glass canon nature.

3) It's a horde army with a lot of detail. Having a lot of new models means they're chalk full of detail, but you're also expected to paint about 80+ of those guys (and gals) with said detail. Burnout doesn't begin to describe it.

4) The lore isn't glamorous. You'd be surprised how big of a factor this is for a lot of people. Your army is poorly equipped, shrieking, brainwashed rabble acting as Useful Idiots so they can get devoured by Tyranids as soon as they win. Deliciously grimdark? Oh yes, but when a lot of people have a very 'Your Dudes' attachment to their armies - even though 8th Codex has provided more potential 'endings' - it doesn't strike a very inspiring cord.

5) It's a tricky army to play. They're extremely fragile, they require a lot of tricks and understanding more so than the cast majority of armies. That's not to say you need to be a master of tactics or anything, but they require a fair bit more finesse than say... Space Marines.

That's a great breakdown Arbitrator.

GSC requires huge investment in every aspect: time, money, painting, learning curve... and even in just the physical effort of moving giant horde armies around.

But it can be very rewarding. It's an exceptionally well-written book with a unique playstyle, some of the best sculpts GW has released in 8th, and plenty of strong, competitive units, allies, and wargear options.

I'd recommend GSC to any die hard 40k wargamer.

What do we mean by core faction? GSC are one of the newest additions and really only just got thickened out, and tbh mostly with just characters.


But yeah fully agree with what you say Arbitrator, it makes a lot of sense.

My paint skill has had to increase 10 fold to make these guys look any good. Which I'm happy with and is why I bought them. But phew, Neophytes have a lot of detail on them!

 SHUPPET wrote:
What do we mean by core faction? GSC are one of the newest additions and really only just got thickened out, and tbh mostly with just characters.

They received their own GW Codex instead of being shunted into an Index or Imperial Agents, nor are they a Forge World 'spin-off' like Renegades and Heretics.

For example, Sisters of Silence are technically a playable army, but they're not fully supported in the same way GSC have their own book, full (if lagging behind the others) range, datacards, etc. They're fully fleshed out with their own units in every category... at least, they are now.

 SHUPPET wrote:
What do we mean by core faction? GSC are one of the newest additions and really only just got thickened out, and tbh mostly with just characters.


But yeah fully agree with what you say Arbitrator, it makes a lot of sense.

My paint skill has had to increase 10 fold to make these guys look any good. Which I'm happy with and is why I bought them. But phew, Neophytes have a lot of detail on them!

Also, GSC have been a core part of the Tyranid lore since 2nd edition. They used to be an army back then, too.