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Invitational pairings are up, and Round 1 pairings are up for the main event. It's getting real, folks!

Bowie wrote:
gak, I've just seen my first opponent. 4 Alaitoc flyers and 3 nightspinners. Anyone got any advice?

How many boots are on the ground?

Keep your troops in transports.
Nail the NightS first, if possible.

'Course, this advice would be better if we knew what *your* army is.

 Brothererekose wrote:

Bowie wrote:
gak, I've just seen my first opponent. 4 Alaitoc flyers and 3 nightspinners. Anyone got any advice?

How many boots are on the ground?

Keep your troops in transports.
Nail the NightS first, if possible.

'Course, this advice would be better if we knew what *your* army is.

11 units on the ground, not impossible to table but those Night Spinners with -1 to hit (-2 if they pop a CP), indirect fire and ignoring wounds on 6s are going to be the tough to take out.

My list is terrible, 12 assassins and a guard brigade. I didn't go into this expecting to win, I'd just have preferred for my first opponent not to be generic Eldar flyer spam

Bowie wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

Bowie wrote:
gak, I've just seen my first opponent. 4 Alaitoc flyers and 3 nightspinners. Anyone got any advice?

How many boots are on the ground?

Keep your troops in transports.
Nail the NightS first, if possible.

'Course, this advice would be better if we knew what *your* army is.

11 units on the ground, not impossible to table but those Night Spinners with -1 to hit (-2 if they pop a CP), indirect fire and ignoring wounds on 6s are going to be the tough to take out.

My list is terrible, 12 assassins and a guard brigade. I didn't go into this expecting to win, I'd just have preferred for my first opponent not to be generic Eldar flyer spam

+1 vote for, don't bother trying to win. Try to have fun instead, die quickly and have a few beers looking forward to the rest of the tournament as your well below all the filth.

Every time I see this thread my dyslexia kicks in and I think it's a thread about LTG. Which is a person you should never look up. But I worry he's here now too.

And with the LGT now over, what did everyone think?

I did the Narrative & The Doubles this year, and I have to say I wasn't impressed with the doubles. The event organiser seemed very short tempered and distant and often hard to find.
The Terrain was... Improved? Over last year? I mean it was wood and not polestrine, and sprayed black as opposed to sometimes sprayed black. I'd call it 'Functional.'

The table spacing was significantly better. There was no utter madness with security, or indeed, any quing to get in. Access to beer was so good we actually drank them out of stock. Apparently there was quite a wait on the chips, but overall the catering standards were significantly better. So was the lighting. I think the round up announcements were handled a lot better this year too.

I'll be writing off the Doubles, but 100% will be taking the trip in order to play in the Narrative event again.

I played in the 40k GT. Significantly better than last year and it was cheaper (£40 this year instead of £50 last year).

The venue was much better in terms of space. Not just around the tables, but the high ceiling meant that the noise wasn't such an issue and it didn't get too hot inside. Agree that food provision could have been better, but the organisers have already put a message out on facebook that they will be stepping this aspect of the event up for next year.

I had some great games and won 3 lost 2. Assuming I am free, I will go again next year.

This event was entirely different to last year's and better in every possible way. Basically as Baoluifu says, it was in a space that could actually support human life and we had access to things like food, albeit after a wait.

Essentially this year it was a well-run event and made for a good weekend. Given that there were 376 players in the 40k GT alone, it went off prett much without a hitch. I had a fun weekend.

As it happens, I also went 5:0 with my slightly thrown together knights list. That probably influences how good I feel about the event. Good times.

What were the top 5 or so players and lists in the open .

 zedsdead wrote:
What were the top 5 or so players and lists in the open .

I dont remember the names but top 5 were eldar flyer spam in first and second and marines in 3rd-5th.

Army list document is on the previous page.

Top 10 (think all were undefeated) was
#1 Anthony Chew - Aeldari
#2 Mani Cheema - Aeldari
#3 Patrik Sanfilippo - Space Marines
#4 Innes Wilson - Space Marines
#5 Joshua Death - Space Marines
#6 Richard Simms - Aeldari
#7 Michele Merlano - Imperial Knights
#8 Chris Gent - Space Marines
#9 Henry Chow - Imperium
#10 Markus Hinson - Imperium

I did not see a lot of Xenos on the tables it had to be said.

Some Orks. One Tyranid?
It was definately an Imperial vs Imperial field for the most part with a scattering of speedy Eldar lists.

Small wonder the results are so soup based when that's most of what people brought, though.

I played pure Drukahi.

Played against Drukhari + Harlequins, Tau, Chaos Knights, Orks, Tau.

My sample size is small of course, but 4/5 of my games were against Xenos and I was playing Xenos. Didn't play against Marines or Imperium. Couple of my friends brought GSC and Drukhari. My personal experience was definitely not one of endless Imperium lists.

I would agree with the poster above, brought imperium and played Tau, imperium, imperium, dark eldar, necrons

So, there was a video posted by a rather well known player recently. He doesn't allege outright cheating, but he does go on to say the player he played against (who has a bit of a reputation) did receive multiple complaints throughout the tournament, "Making up stratagems that didn't exist, moving models back and forth, then reseting a wound counter on a warlord from 5 back to 7/8, time wasting, slow play, running out the clock.

He states that LGT really needs to get it's house in order, because this guy ended up placing. And it's a shame, because he has had multiple complaints, accusations, and outright warnings by a judge against him and there was no repercussions by the managers or TOs.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, there was a video posted by a rather well known player recently. He doesn't allege outright cheating, but he does go on to say the player he played against (who has a bit of a reputation) did receive multiple complaints throughout the tournament, "Making up stratagems that didn't exist, moving models back and forth, then reseting a wound counter on a warlord from 5 back to 7/8, time wasting, slow play, running out the clock.

He states that LGT really needs to get it's house in order, because this guy ended up placing. And it's a shame, because he has had multiple complaints, accusations, and outright warnings by a judge against him and there was no repercussions by the managers or TOs.

That's pretty much cheating.

His video is creating some waves though, which is good.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, there was a video posted by a rather well known player recently. He doesn't allege outright cheating, but he does go on to say the player he played against (who has a bit of a reputation) did receive multiple complaints throughout the tournament, "Making up stratagems that didn't exist, moving models back and forth, then reseting a wound counter on a warlord from 5 back to 7/8, time wasting, slow play, running out the clock.

He states that LGT really needs to get it's house in order, because this guy ended up placing. And it's a shame, because he has had multiple complaints, accusations, and outright warnings by a judge against him and there was no repercussions by the managers or TOs.

Not sure which video you watched, but the accusation is very much outright that the individual cheated. That allegation is backed up by numerous people both in the YT comments and on FB. The alleged cheater made it into the top 3 according to the list on this page. It's worth noting too, that it wasn't just a request for LGT to get itself sorted, but a request that the competitive community as a whole comes together to tackle this problem by tracking infractions across multiple events.

Personally, if I was a TO and somebody applied to enter who was well-known as being a cheater (as this person allegedly is) I'd probably just refuse them entry. If more TOs did this you might see these players either change their ways or not show up at any events. And nothing of value would be lost.

So, this is multiple times now this exact issue has occurred at LGT.

1. Known Cheater is allowed to compete.
2. Known Cheater cheats, gets called out on it, and fails to be punished.
3. Known cheater places in top spot in tournament.

Que outrage. LGT is a mess right now, and there is no excuse. I think we need to do a better job of policing ourselves.

Video was by Vanguard Tactics.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, this is multiple times now this exact issue has occurred at LGT.

1. Known Cheater is allowed to compete.
2. Known Cheater cheats, gets called out on it, and fails to be punished.
3. Known cheater places in top spot in tournament.

Que outrage. LGT is a mess right now, and there is no excuse. I think we need to do a better job of policing ourselves.

Video was by Vanguard Tactics.

Going by the video I'd certainly say the judge should have done more. If I'd been judging there, I think that player might have made it halfway through turn 2 before he got disqualified, but it seems there might be some procedural problems with how cheating is dealt with. The video also points out that had just one more person complained about this player's conduct he would have been kicked out, so there's definitely incentive there for people to report cheaters.

I think it's unfair to blame the LGT for this, especially brining up their previous problems. They seem to have really improved on the organisational issues from last year, and they did actually DQ the player who made it to the final last year. This isn't some LGT-specific problem, it's a competitive 40k problem. It's fixable, but it needs people, specifically TOs, to take the problem seriously.

Sounds like a problem many tournaments suffer from and certainly not a LGT specific one.

Judges are often reluctant to DQ people, for understandable reasons if you place yourself in the shoes of someone that make a genuine mistake and got thrown out of a multi day hundreds of dollars costing tournament (including travel and hotel costs).

Further compounded by the fact that there are so many rules its nigh impossible to know them all, so making gak up is easy and hard to check everything your opponent does (time simply doesn't allow it) so cheaters are often only discovered after the game when people talk to eachother and someone goes 'wait, that army can't do that'.

What the game needs to combat this is probably a good and basic set of guidelines for judges to follow that is quicker on delivering minor penalties (score reductions and game loss) as opposed to the often all or nothing system that exists now where its a warning with no penalty or a DQ.

I guess my point is, This wasn't a case of that. That is golly-gee-whiz oopsies. I didn't know I couldn't do that. Accepts fault, and clearly remembers next time.

This was repeated instances of game affecting, standing affecting, and just outright cheating. Judges should know, and be able to clearly define, cheating.

Did the player move 5" instead of 4"? Warning. Did the player remove the wound die from his warlord, and replace it with a different value? Bet you'll remember this warning, because it comes with a DQ. AND you get put on a list for future tournaments.

We are too accepting of rules violations. If you do this sorta crap in literally any other type of competitive professional environment, there are distinct and strict consequences.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess my point is, This wasn't a case of that. That is golly-gee-whiz oopsies. I didn't know I couldn't do that. Accepts fault, and clearly remembers next time.

This was repeated instances of game affecting, standing affecting, and just outright cheating. Judges should know, and be able to clearly define, cheating.

Did the player move 5" instead of 4"? Warning. Did the player remove the wound die from his warlord, and replace it with a different value? Bet you'll remember this warning, because it comes with a DQ. AND you get put on a list for future tournaments.

We are too accepting of rules violations. If you do this sorta crap in literally any other type of competitive professional environment, there are distinct and strict consequences.

40k tournaments aren't competitive professional environments, they are amateur competitions. I totally agree cheating needs to be stamped out, but you can't put a ref on every table and there are too many incidents in a regular game that an unscrupulous player could exploit as 'cheating'.

The wound marker next to my warlord gets accidentally knocked and I put it back to the 5 it was before but my opponent says it was a 3... then calls a ref. Do I argue it and potentially get a penalty or give in and get cheated?

40k is effectively impossible to police accurately across a whole gaming hall - I think tracking infractions is definitely the best way to go and preventing players from going to events who have a history of poor behaviour.

 ewar wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess my point is, This wasn't a case of that. That is golly-gee-whiz oopsies. I didn't know I couldn't do that. Accepts fault, and clearly remembers next time.

This was repeated instances of game affecting, standing affecting, and just outright cheating. Judges should know, and be able to clearly define, cheating.

Did the player move 5" instead of 4"? Warning. Did the player remove the wound die from his warlord, and replace it with a different value? Bet you'll remember this warning, because it comes with a DQ. AND you get put on a list for future tournaments.

We are too accepting of rules violations. If you do this sorta crap in literally any other type of competitive professional environment, there are distinct and strict consequences.

40k tournaments aren't competitive professional environments, they are amateur competitions. I totally agree cheating needs to be stamped out, but you can't put a ref on every table and there are too many incidents in a regular game that an unscrupulous player could exploit as 'cheating'.

The wound marker next to my warlord gets accidentally knocked and I put it back to the 5 it was before but my opponent says it was a 3... then calls a ref. Do I argue it and potentially get a penalty or give in and get cheated?

40k is effectively impossible to police accurately across a whole gaming hall - I think tracking infractions is definitely the best way to go and preventing players from going to events who have a history of poor behaviour.

So, are there multiple complaints about you "knocking over the wound die, and replacing it with a different number"? Are there a myriad of other shady moves by you? Have you had to be repeatedly warned for slow play? Did you get called out for just flat out making up a stratagem?

Because if those are all true, they yes, I would say you get a DQ or at least forfeit the match for zero points. If this is your first infraction and you dont spend your opponents time arguing about it and being a tool, you can get off with a warning, and I'll just have to watch your play a lot closer now.

Also, stop saying it's not professional. A lot of these players are PAID to attend. That makes it professional. A lot of these players are repping companies, or are influencers, or need to attend to keep up views/clicks. That makes it professional. The winners are financially compensated at a lot of these events. I would say the majority of major tournaments are catered to, and wind up being won by, professional players. That is people who make money by being part of 40k/AOS/Whatever game.

Also, LGT isn't some dudes basement in his mom's house. It's a yearly major. LGT is to 40k what EVO or Combobreaker is to SFV.

Comparing EVO a tournament of thousands of players with prize pools of 10's of thousands of dollars to the LGT.
Combobreaker, almost a 100k pricepool

And your comparing it to the 2nd year of a tournament? Big tho it may be for Warhammers standards.

No.
just No.
40k compitition is very firmly in the amateur stage.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 ewar wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess my point is, This wasn't a case of that. That is golly-gee-whiz oopsies. I didn't know I couldn't do that. Accepts fault, and clearly remembers next time.

This was repeated instances of game affecting, standing affecting, and just outright cheating. Judges should know, and be able to clearly define, cheating.

Did the player move 5" instead of 4"? Warning. Did the player remove the wound die from his warlord, and replace it with a different value? Bet you'll remember this warning, because it comes with a DQ. AND you get put on a list for future tournaments.

We are too accepting of rules violations. If you do this sorta crap in literally any other type of competitive professional environment, there are distinct and strict consequences.

40k tournaments aren't competitive professional environments, they are amateur competitions. I totally agree cheating needs to be stamped out, but you can't put a ref on every table and there are too many incidents in a regular game that an unscrupulous player could exploit as 'cheating'.

The wound marker next to my warlord gets accidentally knocked and I put it back to the 5 it was before but my opponent says it was a 3... then calls a ref. Do I argue it and potentially get a penalty or give in and get cheated?

40k is effectively impossible to police accurately across a whole gaming hall - I think tracking infractions is definitely the best way to go and preventing players from going to events who have a history of poor behaviour.

So, are there multiple complaints about you "knocking over the wound die, and replacing it with a different number"? Are there a myriad of other shady moves by you? Have you had to be repeatedly warned for slow play? Did you get called out for just flat out making up a stratagem?

Because if those are all true, they yes, I would say you get a DQ or at least forfeit the match for zero points. If this is your first infraction and you dont spend your opponents time arguing about it and being a tool, you can get off with a warning, and I'll just have to watch your play a lot closer now.

Also, stop saying it's not professional. A lot of these players are PAID to attend. That makes it professional. A lot of these players are repping companies, or are influencers, or need to attend to keep up views/clicks. That makes it professional. The winners are financially compensated at a lot of these events. I would say the majority of major tournaments are catered to, and wind up being won by, professional players. That is people who make money by being part of 40k/AOS/Whatever game.

Also, LGT isn't some dudes basement in his mom's house. It's a yearly major. LGT is to 40k what EVO or Combobreaker is to SFV.

Jesus dude, sit back down, I didn't gak in your dinner.

All I'm saying is across 300+ players the idea of having refs see more than 1% of the action is completely impractical - you just physically aren't going to get what you want. Maybe you could have a seeding system where all seeded players get a ref? I don't know if that is even workable.

Perhaps I'm underestimating the level of commerciality at these things, but as far as I'm aware no one is making a living from playing at these things. And if it is going on, I would strongly discourage it. Nothing spoils a game more than some douchebag trying to monetise it.

 Ordana wrote:
Comparing EVO a tournament of thousands of players with prize pools of 10's of thousands of dollars to the LGT.
Combobreaker, almost a 100k pricepool

And your comparing it to the 2nd year of a tournament? Big tho it may be for Warhammers standards.

No.
just No.
40k compitition is very firmly in the amateur stage.

Terrible spelling and timeline inaccuracies about LGT's lifespan aside, this post is quite accurate. Striving to make 40k a more legitimate competitive game? Cool. Striving to make it more fair in competitive events? Super cool. Comparing it in its present state to eSports and the like? Just awful.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Also, stop saying it's not professional. A lot of these players are PAID to attend. That makes it professional. A lot of these players are repping companies, or are influencers, or need to attend to keep up views/clicks. That makes it professional. The winners are financially compensated at a lot of these events. I would say the majority of major tournaments are catered to, and wind up being won by, professional players. That is people who make money by being part of 40k/AOS/Whatever game.

Also, LGT isn't some dudes basement in his mom's house. It's a yearly major. LGT is to 40k what EVO or Combobreaker is to SFV.

It's not professional. The number of players actually paid to attend tournaments is, AFAIK, between 0-2. Some players are "sponsored" by a gaming store but that seems to amount to favourable discounts and branded clothing for advertising purposes, and maybe some money towards expenses. We're not talking about people raking in thousands and making an actual living playing in 40k tournaments, which is how the vast majority of people would understand the term "professional". You seem to have a very skewed view of what 40k tournaments are and the rewards for winning them. A tiny, tiny percentage of tournaments award cash prizes. There are quite a few that give out gaming-related stuff as prizes but that's nowhere near the same thing. As far as I can tell there were no cash prizes for the London GT, but I could be wrong. They're certainly not advertised anywhere on the site.

The comparison to eSports is laughable at best. There may be some competitive 40k players who would like tabletop wargaming to get there but it's nowhere near that level yet and likely never will be. The difference in participation and prize money are orders of magnitude apart.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, stop saying it's not professional. A lot of these players are PAID to attend. That makes it professional. A lot of these players are repping companies, or are influencers, or need to attend to keep up views/clicks. That makes it professional. The winners are financially compensated at a lot of these events. I would say the majority of major tournaments are catered to, and wind up being won by, professional players. That is people who make money by being part of 40k/AOS/Whatever game.

So how much they make per year in tournaments then? Guess something like 24000£ minimum for a year for the player then. How many tournament players make 24000£+ a year with their tournaments(and that's not particularly good lifestyle especially with price of models and transportation expenses...Even if he gets tax deductions from them but of course tax is paid from winnings then as well)? I seriously doubt that's not that much.

To be professional you need to be able to live with your income from there. Your professionals better not have regular job that is actually what funds their life.

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, stop saying it's not professional. A lot of these players are PAID to attend. That makes it professional. A lot of these players are repping companies, or are influencers, or need to attend to keep up views/clicks. That makes it professional. The winners are financially compensated at a lot of these events. I would say the majority of major tournaments are catered to, and wind up being won by, professional players. That is people who make money by being part of 40k/AOS/Whatever game.

So how much they make per year in tournaments then? Guess something like 24000£ minimum for a year for the player then. How many tournament players make 24000£+ a year with their tournaments(and that's not particularly good lifestyle especially with price of models and transportation expenses...Even if he gets tax deductions from them but of course tax is paid from winnings then as well)? I seriously doubt that's not that much.

To be professional you need to be able to live with your income from there. Your professionals better not have regular job that is actually what funds their life.

Wrong. The definition of professional vs amateur is whether or not a player is paid. Full stop. If you are paid to compete, you are doing it as a profession. If a sponsor is reimbursing you, either monetarily or through goods and or services, you are a professional competitor in that realm. It's the exact reason American sports is in such an uproar right now legally, with wanting to pay college athletes. Because college athletics is still technically amateur sports. If you pay them, you are making them a professional, and the NCAA clearly states you cannot be a professional athlete and compete in amateur (Collegiate) sporting events.

Honestly, when is the last time a non-sponsored 40k player won a major? I'm guessing it's never happened. Because amateurs don't compete at the same skill level. Thus, full circle here, we shouldn't hold PROFESSIONALS to the same level as AMATEURS.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, stop saying it's not professional. A lot of these players are PAID to attend. That makes it professional. A lot of these players are repping companies, or are influencers, or need to attend to keep up views/clicks. That makes it professional. The winners are financially compensated at a lot of these events. I would say the majority of major tournaments are catered to, and wind up being won by, professional players. That is people who make money by being part of 40k/AOS/Whatever game.

So how much they make per year in tournaments then? Guess something like 24000£ minimum for a year for the player then. How many tournament players make 24000£+ a year with their tournaments(and that's not particularly good lifestyle especially with price of models and transportation expenses...Even if he gets tax deductions from them but of course tax is paid from winnings then as well)? I seriously doubt that's not that much.

To be professional you need to be able to live with your income from there. Your professionals better not have regular job that is actually what funds their life.

Wrong. The definition of professional vs amateur is whether or not a player is paid. Full stop. If you are paid to compete, you are doing it as a profession. If a sponsor is reimbursing you, either monetarily or through goods and or services, you are a professional competitor in that realm. It's the exact reason American sports is in such an uproar right now legally, with wanting to pay college athletes. Because college athletics is still technically amateur sports. If you pay them, you are making them a professional, and the NCAA clearly states you cannot be a professional athlete and compete in amateur (Collegiate) sporting events.

Honestly, when is the last time a non-sponsored 40k player won a major? I'm guessing it's never happened. Because amateurs don't compete at the same skill level. Thus, full circle here, we shouldn't hold PROFESSIONALS to the same level as AMATEURS.

That is an immensely narrow definition of professional. A better definition of a professional would be someone who derives a significant portion of their income from a certain activity. By your definition my dad is a professional golfer because he won £50 at a club competition. I'm a professional computer repairman because my next door neighbour gave me a tenner once when I helped clean his PC of viruses. Calling 40k tournament players professional is laughable because the image that conjures up for the vast majority of people is not what we're talking about here. You seem to have elevated a bunch of people playing toy soldiers regularly to some semi-mythical status above us mere mortals and I have no idea why other than possibly a lack of experience at these types of events. Large events do tend to be won by people who attend many tournaments throughout the year but attending lots of tournaments doesn't make you a professional.

Perhaps you can list what you consider to be a 40k major (itself a rather absurd sporting-based analogy) and we can test how accurate your assertion is?