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pm713 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus chose to just smash through the obstacle in his way, Magnus chose to bargain with the beings he didn't understand, Magnus chose to completely ignore the instruction not to do any more Warp shenanigans. How is it not his fault?

It wasn't a knee jerk reaction at all. He spent months preparing and travelling and went out of his way to try and give Magnus an out or so he thought. I wouldn't call it an over reaction either - In a single act of colossal arrogance and betrayal Magnus permanently destroyed the future of all humanity.
Russ was being a good soldier. If Magnus had been more like Russ then he wouldn't have gone off the rails.

I agree that Magnus could have stayed loyal if things had gone differently but to be honest the surprising thing about the heresy is that only half went traitor.

Yeah he smashed through it because he didn't know how important it was and he thought warning big-e about horus was more important. I still don't get your point, if one is to blame it's the emperor. If he had incorporated magnus in the webaway project, this would probably not have happened.
Also what was the emperors endgame here if he would have been able to complete the project? Magnus was supposed to also sit on the throne, so what if he didn't want to be bound to that machine for prolonged periods of time? Would the emperor just force him on it? I mean he most likely could, but what if magnus then tries to sabotage it in some way. The whole premise was flawed. The emperor was a great leader, but he did not understand people on a individual level at all, even after watching them for countless millennia.

Also if you define a good soldier as a narrow minded brute, who is hellbent on destroying is brother and his brothers planet, even though the captain general of the custodes advises you to not escalate the situation, then yes russ was indeed a good soldier...

Ignorance is not a defence. If I throw a heavy object off a building and kill somebody I'm still responsible for being an idiot and doing something dangerous.

I blame Magnus for ruining both the Webway and mankinds future and his actions but the Emperor is to blame for the overall Heresy.

Magnus was meant to sit on the Throne therefore he would was the logic I think. As you say the Emperor did not understand people and the plan is flawed.

No I think a good soldier is someone who received his orders, decided he had no reason to defy them and proceeded to carry them out. If you want to get nitpicky then I'd say that's just an adequate soldier.

In theory I agree with your comparison that throwing something off a building without knowing if someone gets hit does not absolve you of guilt if someone does get hurt. However in your example you know that someone could get hit if you throw something off a building, you accept that risk, you are aware of it. If say in theory a psychologist came to the conclusion that you genuinely did not recognize that throwing something off a building could potentially hurt somebody, you would not be considered to be of sound mind and could not be charged in the same way.
Magnus did not know that he doomed humanity to a 10.000 year decline and that he almost won the heresy for horus by what he did. I mean how could he possibly know or accept that risk when he had never even heard of the webway project or what it was for?

Also last thing about russ: you say he's a good soldier because he decided to follow his orders and had no reason to defy them. Now again my point: valdor told him to not escalate the situation, based on how the original order was worded. If the captain general of the custodes advises you to show at least some restraint until you know whats going on you have reasonable doubt to not feth up a planet.

Magnus knew enough to at least suspect he was destroying something valuable and really there were alternatives he could have done instead of just smashing through the obstacles in his path. In that case while I might not have known people were at risk but suspected it then there would definitely be consequences.

Valdor was a subordinate at the time. Granted his opinion was worth being heard and considered but once it was dismissed that should have been the end of it. Russ had orders to destroy the planet that replaced prior orders to just retrieve Magnus. Ignoring Valdor was perfectly reasonable.

pm713 wrote:
Magnus knew enough to at least suspect he was destroying something valuable and really there were alternatives he could have done instead of just smashing through the obstacles in his path. In that case while I might not have known people were at risk but suspected it then there would definitely be consequences.

Valdor was a subordinate at the time. Granted his opinion was worth being heard and considered but once it was dismissed that should have been the end of it. Russ had orders to destroy the planet that replaced prior orders to just retrieve Magnus. Ignoring Valdor was perfectly reasonable.

Russ being a primarch or not, describing the captain general of the custodes as a subordinate is kind of a stretch to be honest. Russ never had any command over him, no primarch had for that matter. The problem is that valdor can tell russ to keep his cool, but if he doesn't listen and is hellbent on escalating the situation with magnus, valdor has 2 options basically. Try to take russ out, which would prove almost impossible considering wer're talking about a primarch here who also has a big portion of his legion around to support him, or stay by his side through the whole mess and try to mitigate the overall damage, which is what he did...sort of.

Also magnus suspecting that he was destroying something valuable is speculation in my opinion considering the precieved urgency of the warning he was trying to send.

Edit: I don't want do argue for the sake of it and you raise some good points, but maybe I can bring home my point about russ with this: I think that if another primarch like sanguinius or vulkan would have been in this situation instead of russ, prospero might not have burned.

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus knew enough to at least suspect he was destroying something valuable and really there were alternatives he could have done instead of just smashing through the obstacles in his path. In that case while I might not have known people were at risk but suspected it then there would definitely be consequences.

Valdor was a subordinate at the time. Granted his opinion was worth being heard and considered but once it was dismissed that should have been the end of it. Russ had orders to destroy the planet that replaced prior orders to just retrieve Magnus. Ignoring Valdor was perfectly reasonable.

Russ being a primarch or not, describing the captain general of the custodes as a subordinate is kind of a stretch to be honest. Russ never had any command over him, no primarch had for that matter. The problem is that valdor can tell russ to keep his cool, but if he doesn't listen and is hellbent on escalating the situation with magnus, valdor has 2 options basically. Try to take russ out, which would prove almost impossible considering wer're talking about a primarch here who also has a big portion of his legion around to support him, or stay by his side through the whole mess and try to mitigate the overall damage, which is what he did...sort of.

Also magnus suspecting that he was destroying something valuable is speculation in my opinion considering the precieved urgency of the warning he was trying to send.

Edit: I don't want do argue for the sake of it and you raise some good points, but maybe I can bring home my point about russ with this: I think that if another primarch like sanguinius or vulkan would have been in this situation instead of russ, prospero might not have burned.

It's not a stretch at all. Horus Heresy Book 7 outright states that Russ was in command and Valdor was not.

Imagine the problems that could have been avoided by just going in person.

That's a reasonable point of view.

pm713 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus knew enough to at least suspect he was destroying something valuable and really there were alternatives he could have done instead of just smashing through the obstacles in his path. In that case while I might not have known people were at risk but suspected it then there would definitely be consequences.

Valdor was a subordinate at the time. Granted his opinion was worth being heard and considered but once it was dismissed that should have been the end of it. Russ had orders to destroy the planet that replaced prior orders to just retrieve Magnus. Ignoring Valdor was perfectly reasonable.

Russ being a primarch or not, describing the captain general of the custodes as a subordinate is kind of a stretch to be honest. Russ never had any command over him, no primarch had for that matter. The problem is that valdor can tell russ to keep his cool, but if he doesn't listen and is hellbent on escalating the situation with magnus, valdor has 2 options basically. Try to take russ out, which would prove almost impossible considering wer're talking about a primarch here who also has a big portion of his legion around to support him, or stay by his side through the whole mess and try to mitigate the overall damage, which is what he did...sort of.

Also magnus suspecting that he was destroying something valuable is speculation in my opinion considering the precieved urgency of the warning he was trying to send.

Edit: I don't want do argue for the sake of it and you raise some good points, but maybe I can bring home my point about russ with this: I think that if another primarch like sanguinius or vulkan would have been in this situation instead of russ, prospero might not have burned.

It's not a stretch at all. Horus Heresy Book 7 outright states that Russ was in command and Valdor was not.

Imagine the problems that could have been avoided by just going in person.

That's a reasonable point of view.

You initially said that valdor was his subordinate. Now I know I sound like a douche when I nitpick stuff like that, but I think it's important. Russ can be in command without valdor being a direct subordinate, he was more of a councel for him. That is the important differnce in my opinion. If valdor had just been a subordinate his concerns would not carry the same weight and could be easily and reasonably brushed aside by russ. Remember that all custodians and especially valdor speaks with the voice of the emperor and they answer to him and only him. So his advice should have carried more weight, but as we all know russ was notoriously stubborn, which is part of that characters charm but it does not lead to great descisions on several occasions, like on prospero.

And yes I agree, if magnus went in person to warn the emperor the heresy would have unfolded a lot differently. The emperor, the custodes and the sisters of silence would have not been bound to defend the webway gate beneath the golden throne. They would have been able to directly move against horus and the emperor would have probably roflstomped him. I mean he was still able to kill horus even after being extremely exhausted from the whole breached webway gate situation.

Prospero was a great example of everyone messing up in the perfect way.

The Emperor was at peak I don't know how people work by sending Russ in the first place given his existing grudge with Magnus. If he had picked any other legion (putting not knowing about the traitors aside) Magnus might have gone peacefully/they might have been more reluctant to pull a wipe them all out.

Russ (This part is portrayed differently across a lot of sources) seemed to want to figure out a way to bring Magnus in peacefully but the minute he felt that wasn't an option doubled down on his role as the Emperors Executioner. He wanted this fight on some level and went 0 to 100 real quick.

Magnus after he realized what he had done decided to not tell his legion anything at all. This meant most of his world was wiped out and his legion decided that being wiped out for reasons they didn't understand was a not an option they would embrace. He eventually goes all in on chaos to try and save whats left of his guys which ends up just leaving the wolves drained and sets his legion down the road of damnation.

Valdor for his part is the only true adult in the room recognizing all the above (along with Horus's new order) is a bad situation but is stuck between a rock and hard place. Russ want's a fight and was given a valid order to start one. Magnus went radio silent and ignored a valid order to surrender peacefully which meant it's time to fight. Despite being correct that said fight is probably not want the Big E wanted, he has two options.

Over throw Russ or go with it. One on one, Russ probably has him beat and number wise it's a legion vs his guys. He went with the better option.

Also what was the emperors endgame here if he would have been able to complete the project? Magnus was supposed to also sit on the throne, so what if he didn't want to be bound to that machine for prolonged periods of time? Would the emperor just force him on it? I mean he most likely could, but what if magnus then tries to sabotage it in some way. The whole premise was flawed. The emperor was a great leader, but he did not understand people on a individual level at all, even after watching them for countless millennia.

Hard to tell. Before Magnus fried the Golden Throne, the portal could be opened and closed properly. Presumably Magnus would only have had to extert himself periodically when the gate needed opening. In return he would have ended up having perhaps the most exalted position among the Primarchs. He would also have been perfectly situated to observe the Warp in all its majesty. If things had not gone pear-shaped, I can see Magnus being OK with the deal.

 Karhedron wrote:

Also what was the emperors endgame here if he would have been able to complete the project? Magnus was supposed to also sit on the throne, so what if he didn't want to be bound to that machine for prolonged periods of time? Would the emperor just force him on it? I mean he most likely could, but what if magnus then tries to sabotage it in some way. The whole premise was flawed. The emperor was a great leader, but he did not understand people on a individual level at all, even after watching them for countless millennia.

Hard to tell. Before Magnus fried the Golden Throne, the portal could be opened and closed properly. Presumably Magnus would only have had to extert himself periodically when the gate needed opening. In return he would have ended up having perhaps the most exalted position among the Primarchs. He would also have been perfectly situated to observe the Warp in all its majesty. If things had not gone pear-shaped, I can see Magnus being OK with the deal.

Knowing the Emperor it was more likely to be "get on the Throne or I'll start taking bits of your brain out" followed by a bit of the Thunder Warrior treatment.

He’s Spartacus.

pm713 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Also what was the emperors endgame here if he would have been able to complete the project? Magnus was supposed to also sit on the throne, so what if he didn't want to be bound to that machine for prolonged periods of time? Would the emperor just force him on it? I mean he most likely could, but what if magnus then tries to sabotage it in some way. The whole premise was flawed. The emperor was a great leader, but he did not understand people on a individual level at all, even after watching them for countless millennia.

Hard to tell. Before Magnus fried the Golden Throne, the portal could be opened and closed properly. Presumably Magnus would only have had to extert himself periodically when the gate needed opening. In return he would have ended up having perhaps the most exalted position among the Primarchs. He would also have been perfectly situated to observe the Warp in all its majesty. If things had not gone pear-shaped, I can see Magnus being OK with the deal.

Knowing the Emperor it was more likely to be "get on the Throne or I'll start taking bits of your brain out" followed by a bit of the Thunder Warrior treatment.

Do we actually have accounts of the emperor actually being decent to his sons for once? I mean really showing something like care or empathy for them. Cause I can't think of one....he's just such a great dad.

Andykp wrote:He’s Spartacus.

Basically...just an even more depressing, rage fueled and roided up version.

Tiberias wrote:
Do we actually have accounts of the emperor actually being decent to his sons for once? I mean really showing something like care or empathy for them. Cause I can't think of one....he's just such a great dad.

Wolf of Ash and Fire shows him having quite a rapport with Horus so he was obviously capable of behaving in a fatherly fashion when needed. His reaction to each Primarch seems to have varied depending on how closely they matched his expectations. Horus was an impressive warrior and general who quickly got on with Crusading so earned a good grade. Others, not so much.

The Primarch novels rather than HH novels seem to be the best place to look for this as they are set well before the Heresy so we get a better view of how the Emperor treated each Primarch. Jaghati Khan for instance never got on with his father. The suppression of psykers and the establishment of a controlling Imperium conflicted with his own nature but he managed to accept the necessity of the GC and fought it in his own way whilst remaining loyal. Vulkan seemed to do well also to the extent that when he fought alongside Ferrus, the Emperor complimented him on his compassion in protecting civilians compared to the IHs "maximum force" approach.

I haven't read the other Primarch books yet but I suspect some will yield further examples while others will show the Emperor behaving badly rather then dadly.

It's worth mentioning that the Emperor used a glamour that gave people essentially what they wanted to see, among other psychic controls. Could be that he (a) leaned too heavily on these psychic gifts, and (b) the warp is fickle and Tzeentch is subtle. Things like Him not knowing Magnus had fallen, and having the future hidden from him while trusting in his psychic powers certainly could have lead him astray. Take the Ahriman books. Insofar as Ahriman is concerned Tzeentch and his daemons virtually don't exist. He's practically blind to them.

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Also what was the emperors endgame here if he would have been able to complete the project? Magnus was supposed to also sit on the throne, so what if he didn't want to be bound to that machine for prolonged periods of time? Would the emperor just force him on it? I mean he most likely could, but what if magnus then tries to sabotage it in some way. The whole premise was flawed. The emperor was a great leader, but he did not understand people on a individual level at all, even after watching them for countless millennia.

Hard to tell. Before Magnus fried the Golden Throne, the portal could be opened and closed properly. Presumably Magnus would only have had to extert himself periodically when the gate needed opening. In return he would have ended up having perhaps the most exalted position among the Primarchs. He would also have been perfectly situated to observe the Warp in all its majesty. If things had not gone pear-shaped, I can see Magnus being OK with the deal.

Knowing the Emperor it was more likely to be "get on the Throne or I'll start taking bits of your brain out" followed by a bit of the Thunder Warrior treatment.

Do we actually have accounts of the emperor actually being decent to his sons for once? I mean really showing something like care or empathy for them. Cause I can't think of one....he's just such a great dad.

Andykp wrote:He’s Spartacus.

Basically...just an even more depressing, rage fueled and roided up version.

I did hope that my comment would lead to a “no, I’m spartacus!” From some one.