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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Lord Damocles believes that a car can outstrip a person on foot. As odd as it may seem, he's quite right.


Ah-ha! I'm responsible for travel by car being faster than travel by foot. Turns out that it has nothing to do with engines, or all that jazz, apparently.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Its not a correlation=/= causation argument.

Its you not accepting that when the text says 'what they believe is correct,' that it means what it says.


I find that quite absurd to say, because what I am saying is what the text tells us. I did not claim what they believe isn't correct, but that it does not say their belief is what makes red faster.

"Orks believe that a vehicle that has been painted red can outstrip a similar vehicle that isn't.


This part of the quote is saying that Orks have a belief that Red vehicles are faster than a non-red Vehicle.

As odd as it may seem, they are quite right"


This part says that their belief is justified - a red vehicle is faster than a non-red vehicle.

Please tell me, other than both being in the same line (correlation), which part of that quote do you think tells us the red vehicle is faster because they have that belief (causation)?

Nowhere in that quote does it say that their belief is what's responsible for red being faster. Just Orks think Red is faster. And for some reason red is faster.


Because the text is going out of its way to explain there is no reason for it other than their belief. That's why 'as odd as it may seem' is there.
Its explaining that contrary to real-world logic, belief is why it works. It _is_ the 'for some reason.' Otherwise there is NO reason and it doesn't happen.

If they just believed and it had no effect, there would be no need for any explanation: 'Orks think red vehicles go faster. They don't. Aren't orks dumb?' isn't a particularly interesting piece of background. The editor would strike it from the book.

The 'for some reason red is faster' is belief based or the whole piece of background (and game mechanic) is completely meaningless and pointless. It would be like having a paragraph in each character description about what piece of fruit they ate last. It would add nothing to any element of the ork background or army book.


 Lord Damocles wrote:
Lord Damocles believes that a car can outstrip a person on foot. As odd as it may seem, he's quite right.
Ah-ha! I'm responsible for travel by car being faster than travel by foot. Turns out that it has nothing to do with engines, or all that jazz, apparently.

This isn't comparable. What you've presented is what we expect to happen and is actually in line with how reality works. It doesn't require any explanation, which is why no 40k book bothers to explain why most vehicles have a higher movement stat than infantry (but occasionally explains that some vehicles are particularly heavy and slow).
Orks get a in game reason why red is faster because its fantastical. Ridgerunners don't because they're just cars and the speed is entirely mundane.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 17:19:39


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Its not a correlation=/= causation argument.

Its you not accepting that when the text says 'what they believe is correct,' that it means what it says.


I find that quite absurd to say, because what I am saying is what the text tells us. I did not claim what they believe isn't correct, but that it does not say their belief is what makes red faster.

"Orks believe that a vehicle that has been painted red can outstrip a similar vehicle that isn't.


This part of the quote is saying that Orks have a belief that Red vehicles are faster than a non-red Vehicle.

As odd as it may seem, they are quite right"


This part says that their belief is justified - a red vehicle is faster than a non-red vehicle.

Please tell me, other than both being in the same line (correlation), which part of that quote do you think tells us the red vehicle is faster because they have that belief (causation)?

Nowhere in that quote does it say that their belief is what's responsible for red being faster. Just Orks think Red is faster. And for some reason red is faster.


Because the text is going out of its way to explain there is no reason for it other than their belief. That's why 'as odd as it may seem' is there.
Its explaining that contrary to real-world logic, belief is why it works. It _is_ the 'for some reason.' Otherwise there is NO reason and it doesn't happen.

If they just believed and it had no effect, there would be no need for any explanation: 'Orks think red vehicles go faster. They don't. Aren't orks dumb?' isn't a particularly interesting piece of background. The editor would strike it from the book.

The 'for some reason red is faster' is belief based or the whole piece of background (and game mechanic) is completely meaningless and pointless. It would be like having a paragraph in each character description about what piece of fruit they ate last. It would add nothing to any element of the ork background or army book.


No, it is not. The quote does not say what you're suggesting at all. You have taken a line that has two statements, that does not include any actual connection between the two, and decided that there is a connection between the two. It's a line that says "X believes Y happens. For some reason Y actually happens" that you've then gone on to read as "X believes Y happens. For some reason Y actually happens. Therefore X's belief causes Y" - it's taking it as correlation = causation, like I said.

The "as odd as it may seem" is there to tell us us that their belief is valid - a vehicle painted red does go faster. Something causes it, but the line does not even hint at a reason for it and certainly does not say it's their belief that's responsible. Again it simply tells us that 1. They have a belief and 2. Their belief is valid. Something about the Orks means it happens - aa result of the gestalt field, like their other 'abilities' (E.g. telling who's bigger and the Waaagh!)? I can see that being the case....but that does not then mean it's "They believe it so it becomes true because they believe it!", that is not what the lore supports even if it is the result of the gestalt field.

This is why I have asked for quotes that specifically support the idea of their belief having an effect, because the ones I have seen are exactly like this example where you only get to the "They believe it, so it becomes true" by mis-reading what it said and forming a connection between the belief itself and the effect where there isn't actually one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 17:51:41


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




The "as odd as it may seem" is there to tell us us that their belief is valid - a vehicle painted red does go faster

Yes. Just this. The belief is valid and the effect is real. The end.

If Mekboy Jim finishes a new buggy and takes it out for a test drive (bare metal and all), it clocks in at an 80kph cruising speed and a 120 kph max speed, and he decides its fine, but could be better.

So he takes it back to the garage, gives it a snazzy red paint job and nothing else, and takes it out again. It now goes 88 kph/132 kph max, and he decides 'jobs a good 'un.'

Its now red, so it goes faster. That's all there is to it.

You have taken a line that has two statements, that does not include any actual connection between the two,

I don't have the time or inclination to explain inference and implication to you, but they are entirely connected.

You're getting lost in the weeds for a straightforward fantasy element that doesn't need to work by real world rules, and severely misapplying logic as a result.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:01:46


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:
The "as odd as it may seem" is there to tell us us that their belief is valid - a vehicle painted red does go faster

Yes. Just this. The belief is valid and the effect is real. The end.

If Mekboy Jim finishes a new buggy and takes it out for a test drive (bare metal and all), it clocks in at an 80kph cruising speed and a 120 kph max speed, and he decides its fine, but could be better.

So he takes it back to the garage, gives it a snazzy red paint job and nothing else, and takes it out again. It now goes 88 kph/132 kph max, and he decides 'jobs a good 'un.'

Its now red, so it goes faster. That's all there is to it.

You have taken a line that has two statements, that does not include any actual connection between the two,

I don't have the time or inclination to explain inference and implication to you, but they are entirely connected.

You're getting lost in the weeds for a straightforward fantasy element that doesn't need to work by real world rules, and severely misapplying logic as a result.


Yes. The belief is valid. The effect is real. You've then gone beyond what it says and added onto that the idea that the belief is what makes the effect real. Nowhere in the quote is their belief implied or inferred to be the cause. It is a 2 line sentence that does not say that the belief the reason it happens, with that conclusion only reachable from that line by taking it as correlation means causation.

It seems you're twisting what I'm saying now as I have not at all said that it "needs to work by real world rules". I have said several times now that I am not disputing the idea that the psychic/gestalt field generated by the Orks causes red vehicles to be faster, I am disputing that it's them choosing to believe something like Red is faster that is responsible for that then happening.

We know the field and Orks have programmed in effects as a result of the field, like instinctively knowing who's in charge or Mek knowledge getting unlocked as things expand - things that have nothing to do with their belief but are rather just part of their physiology - yet when it comes to something like Red being faster, it gets taken as the field being determined by what they choose to believe being the cause instead despite the lore not saying it's their belief itself that is what makes a difference.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:52:30


 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

Isn't there a part in the book about Ork fighter pilots where the Orks make a 90 degree turn mid flight and the imperials exlaimed how it was impossible?

Khorne Daemons 4000+pts
 
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Voss wrote:
The "as odd as it may seem" is there to tell us us that their belief is valid - a vehicle painted red does go faster

Yes. Just this. The belief is valid and the effect is real. The end.

If Mekboy Jim finishes a new buggy and takes it out for a test drive (bare metal and all), it clocks in at an 80kph cruising speed and a 120 kph max speed, and he decides its fine, but could be better.

So he takes it back to the garage, gives it a snazzy red paint job and nothing else, and takes it out again. It now goes 88 kph/132 kph max, and he decides 'jobs a good 'un.'

Its now red, so it goes faster. That's all there is to it.

You have taken a line that has two statements, that does not include any actual connection between the two,

I don't have the time or inclination to explain inference and implication to you, but they are entirely connected.

You're getting lost in the weeds for a straightforward fantasy element that doesn't need to work by real world rules, and severely misapplying logic as a result.


Yes. The belief is valid. The effect is real. You've then gone beyond what it says and added onto that the idea that the belief is what makes the effect real. Nowhere in the quote is their belief implied or inferred to be the cause. It is a 2 line sentence that does not say that the belief the reason it happens, with that conclusion only reachable from that line by taking it as correlation means causation.

It seems you're twisting what I'm saying now as I have not at all said that it "needs to work by real world rules". I have said several times now that I am not disputing the idea that the psychic/gestalt field generated by the Orks causes red vehicles to be faster, I am disputing that it's them choosing to believe something like Red is faster that is responsible for that then happening.

We know the field and Orks have programmed in effects as a result of the field, like instinctively knowing who's in charge or Mek knowledge getting unlocked as things expand - things that have nothing to do with their belief but are rather just part of their physiology - yet when it comes to something like Red being faster, it gets taken as the field being determined by what they choose to believe being the cause instead despite the lore not saying it's their belief itself that is what makes a difference.





I think you’re getting to hung up on ‘choosing to believe’. They’re psychically engineered biological weapons...

Orks *know* red ones are faster for the same reason that they always know what the clans are, or how to operate their equipment, or meks know how to build it, or that they know blue is lucky (another colour based thing which is inexplicably true for the orks).

Orks’ entire culture is programmed into both their genes (cf Xenology) and their psychic gestalt. Some of it makes some logical sense (meks, operating machinery, etc), though they manage to make some pretty unbelievable things out of some prettty ramshackle constructions. Other stuff, like the colour things, do not, but ‘for some strange reason’ they are in fact true. The blue thing is also powerful enough to have significant game effect (6+ invun) and doesn’t even have a ‘maybe they always paint fast things red’ excuse.

Orks entire genetic code is built around harnessing the psychic gestalt to achieve useful effects - it’s how the spores know which order to grow things in, why they waaagh, etc.

Orks are engineered to know red is fast and blue is lucky, they are engineered to generate a psychic field to assist them and they are also engineered to manipulate that field to give things that little bit of help to make their knowledge a reality.

A mob of orks don’t randomly decide red is fast (or blue lucky) and that rewrite reality. All orks everywhere *know* red is faster and have a psychic field literally built in to assist them.

In a setting where enough belief can literally summon emotion-based daemons from hell to wreck havoc; or work literal miracles for regular, if particularly pious, humans; why is it making vehicles very slightly faster for psychic weapons so hard to believe?
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Yes. The belief is valid. The effect is real. You've then gone beyond what it says and added onto that the idea that the belief is what makes the effect real. Nowhere in the quote is their belief implied or inferred to be the cause. It is a 2 line sentence that does not say that the belief the reason it happens, with that conclusion only reachable from that line by taking it as correlation means causation.

Again, no.
Its an omniscient third person narrator stating flatly that what is happening, is in fact happening. And it is happening with measurable, testable and repeatable effects- a red one is always faster. Its faster than it was when it wasn't red, and its faster than any number of non-red vehicles with the same specs. That is as real as anything gets- you can run the experiment as many times as you like, but barring outside interference, red wins a speed test, every time.

It seems you're twisting what I'm saying now as I have not at all said that it "needs to work by real world rules". I have said several times now that I am not disputing the idea that the psychic/gestalt field generated by the Orks causes red vehicles to be faster, I am disputing that it's them choosing to believe something like Red is faster that is responsible for that then happening.

There is no 'choosing to believe.' There is, arguably, no 'field' or 'gestalt' or whatever fan mindcaulk people are using to glue this together so it makes sense to them.
The red one DOES go faster. The same vehicle goes faster once it is painted red. You might as well argue that orks can't use chairs unless they 'choose to believe' the chair exists first.

You're basically disputing that rocks exist, or that fuel additives, supercharged engines or aerodynamic forms allow vehicles go faster than vehicles without them. It is a real, testable fact of the the 40k universe.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Lord Zarkov wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Voss wrote:
The "as odd as it may seem" is there to tell us us that their belief is valid - a vehicle painted red does go faster

Yes. Just this. The belief is valid and the effect is real. The end.

If Mekboy Jim finishes a new buggy and takes it out for a test drive (bare metal and all), it clocks in at an 80kph cruising speed and a 120 kph max speed, and he decides its fine, but could be better.

So he takes it back to the garage, gives it a snazzy red paint job and nothing else, and takes it out again. It now goes 88 kph/132 kph max, and he decides 'jobs a good 'un.'

Its now red, so it goes faster. That's all there is to it.

You have taken a line that has two statements, that does not include any actual connection between the two,

I don't have the time or inclination to explain inference and implication to you, but they are entirely connected.

You're getting lost in the weeds for a straightforward fantasy element that doesn't need to work by real world rules, and severely misapplying logic as a result.


Yes. The belief is valid. The effect is real. You've then gone beyond what it says and added onto that the idea that the belief is what makes the effect real. Nowhere in the quote is their belief implied or inferred to be the cause. It is a 2 line sentence that does not say that the belief the reason it happens, with that conclusion only reachable from that line by taking it as correlation means causation.

It seems you're twisting what I'm saying now as I have not at all said that it "needs to work by real world rules". I have said several times now that I am not disputing the idea that the psychic/gestalt field generated by the Orks causes red vehicles to be faster, I am disputing that it's them choosing to believe something like Red is faster that is responsible for that then happening.

We know the field and Orks have programmed in effects as a result of the field, like instinctively knowing who's in charge or Mek knowledge getting unlocked as things expand - things that have nothing to do with their belief but are rather just part of their physiology - yet when it comes to something like Red being faster, it gets taken as the field being determined by what they choose to believe being the cause instead despite the lore not saying it's their belief itself that is what makes a difference.





I think you’re getting to hung up on ‘choosing to believe’. They’re psychically engineered biological weapons...

Orks *know* red ones are faster for the same reason that they always know what the clans are, or how to operate their equipment, or meks know how to build it, or that they know blue is lucky (another colour based thing which is inexplicably true for the orks).

Orks’ entire culture is programmed into both their genes (cf Xenology) and their psychic gestalt. Some of it makes some logical sense (meks, operating machinery, etc), though they manage to make some pretty unbelievable things out of some prettty ramshackle constructions. Other stuff, like the colour things, do not, but ‘for some strange reason’ they are in fact true. The blue thing is also powerful enough to have significant game effect (6+ invun) and doesn’t even have a ‘maybe they always paint fast things red’ excuse.

Orks entire genetic code is built around harnessing the psychic gestalt to achieve useful effects - it’s how the spores know which order to grow things in, why they waaagh, etc.

Orks are engineered to know red is fast and blue is lucky, they are engineered to generate a psychic field to assist them and they are also engineered to manipulate that field to give things that little bit of help to make their knowledge a reality.

A mob of orks don’t randomly decide red is fast (or blue lucky) and that rewrite reality. All orks everywhere *know* red is faster and have a psychic field literally built in to assist them.

In a setting where enough belief can literally summon emotion-based daemons from hell to wreck havoc; or work literal miracles for regular, if particularly pious, humans; why is it making vehicles very slightly faster for psychic weapons so hard to believe?


I am not arguing against red vehicles being faster, though. What you've said there is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to say - it's a built-in part of the Orks and the Gestalt field that they generate. Orks create the field and the field has certain specific effects that line up with Ork culture, but it's not a "Whatever they believe then becomes true just because they want it to be true" that it gets claimed to be. "Red is faster" would just be one of the pre-programmed effects in the same way as something like them instinctively knowing who's in charge is. They're just facts to the Orks - you can't convince them to believe something else and it'll then be made true.

However that Ork beliefs line up with those effects does not then mean that the effects occur because of their belief. There's a slight yet important distinction between whether those effects happen because of the Orks thinking they happen, or whether the Orks think that happens because of the effects. One makes it so they can modify reality with their thoughts, the other is Ork beliefs simply following what they know is true. Either way the end result of things like "Red is faster" is the same and that's still true, but the first makes the end result the ability of their beliefs being able to change things while the latter simply has Ork beliefs being the by-product of just how things are.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 23:38:30


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

Good discussion, I don't have much to add. I think of it as evil suns prioritise speed and their colour is red. Why don't deathskulls paint their vehicles red? Because they favour luck. So the red ones do go faster, but not because they're red

Incidentally my fiancee has the same car as me, only hers is red and mine is blue. Hers does actually go faster, but perhaps that's because it's the sport model. I'm not put off by that, I like to believe mine has a 6++ and objective secured

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Yeah, the entirety of 40k is disbelief manifested. It doesn't make sense, it's not supposed to.

Orks know it, it's not even a question of belief. To them it is a fact , not something to be debated or even questioned.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Voss wrote:

Its an omniscient third person narrator stating flatly that what is happening, is in fact happening.


You're mistaken. It's a third person narrator stating a fact (which may or may not be true, accurate, or complete). If you're familiar with GW's "everything is canon, even when it contradicts other canon facts" stance, you have to let go of the presumption that the third person narrator is omniscient or infallible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 23:50:53


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I am not arguing against red vehicles being faster, though. What you've said there is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to say - it's a built-in part of the Orks and the Gestalt field that they generate. Orks create the field and the field has certain specific effects that line up with Ork culture, but it's not a "Whatever they believe then becomes true just because they want it to be true" that it gets claimed to be. "Red is faster" would just be one of the pre-programmed effects in the same way as something like them instinctively knowing who's in charge is. They're just facts to the Orks - you can't convince them to believe something else and it'll then be made true.

Orks don't instinctively know who's in charge. They get in fights to determine that- the winner ends up in charge. If someone snipes off the warboss, without an obvious enemy to fight, the nobs turn on each other to see who the new boss is- that's _very_ well established.
Current codex, p 34: "A Warboss achieves
and maintains his position of power purely
because of his size and prowess in the
savage arts of war."

The rest of that makes it pretty clear it _isn't_ 'pretty much exactly what you're trying to say,' because I didn't say anything like that. No 'gestalt fields,' no 'wanting it to be true,' nothing. Just a bit of 'color engineering' that happens to work in 40k.


However that Ork beliefs line up with those effects does not then mean that the effects occur because of their belief. There's a slight yet important distinction between whether those effects happen because of the Orks thinking they happen, or whether the Orks think that happens because of the effects. One makes it so they can modify reality with their thoughts, the other is Ork beliefs simply following what they know is true. Either way the end result of things like "Red is faster" is the same and that's still true, but the first makes the end result the ability of their beliefs being able to change things while the latter simply has Ork beliefs being the by-product of just how things are.

Yeah, here's the disconnect. It isn't an important distinction. Its just a truth, and even if it did matter, they lack the agency to change their beliefs, and if its just 'how things are,' it doesn't matter what they believe. You're still left with Red Ones Go Faster no matter what.


 solkan wrote:
Voss wrote:

Its an omniscient third person narrator stating flatly that what is happening, is in fact happening.


You're mistaken. It's a third person narrator stating a fact (which may or may not be true, accurate, or complete). If you're familiar with GW's "everything is canon, even when it contradicts other canon facts" stance, you have to let go of the presumption that the third person narrator is omniscient or infallible.


I've familiar with people randomly claiming that. I've never actually seen GW claim it, and its pretty blatantly absurd, because then somehow Dante isn't the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels and the third war for Armageddon never happened, and space marines still use shuriken catapults on the regular.

"The Genesis Chapter has the proud distinction of being the first of the Primogenitors" isn't being told from a 'fallible' or biased point of view. Its simply a listed fact.
Even using the term 'narrator' is a mistake on my part- it implies a person in the setting with priorities, agendas and biases. Except for the fiction blurbs, that isn't what happens with most of the text in the rule and army books. Its just providing information- taking the stance that its all up in the air and none of it can be trusted makes for a very non-functional setting.

Even in real world history we simply take the most likely scenario with the best evidence (or accept it as unknown) and pass it on to our schools and cultural traditions. A game has no reason to try to complicate things with that mess of uncertainty.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

Here's a fun question: do red Imperial vehicles go faster?

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

It would reason that the orks perceive them to be, so their reflexes would be similarly dulled or whatever whenever they interact/view them.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune





Northumberland




In the grim darkness of the far future, stuff doesn't have to make sense

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






The orks being 'right' that red ones goes faster does not automatically mean their belief is causing this effect.

"Orks believe that a vehicle that has been painted red can outstrip a similar vehicle that isn't. As odd as it may seem, they are quite right"

Simple explanation: paint. Ork paint is manufactured from a rare paint squig that you squeeeeeze to get the colour you want. The 'red' version (when you squeeze it real hard) generates a mild fiction/inertia reducing effect. Its small, but enough that red ones go faster. Orks notice this, and believe it is the colour. But actually its the paint, which is why other races don't receive the same benefits even when fighting orks.

I'm not saying this is true, but it is an explanation that would make perfect sense in reference to the quote.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 10:03:08


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Denny wrote:
I'm not saying this is true, but it is an explanation that would make perfect sense in reference to the quote.
By the same token it could be argued that khorne likes the colour red, and the constant conflict of the orks, and so reaches out of the warp and pushes their red vehicles along making them go slightly faster.

However much like the squig paint there is literally nothing to support this.

On the other hand there are various references scattered through the material of the orks collective psychic field and the way in which ork technology tends not to work as well / at all in the hands of non-orks for no other (given) reason than that they aren't orks.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






Sure there are, and that might might well be the explanation.

But it cannot be inferred from the quote.

Like you say, it relies on other sources. And personally I think it’s much more interesting if the issue is slightly unclear. It’s much more interesting as a theory than a fact.

   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver






I like to go along with the "psychic lubricant" idea, that the thing already mechanically works as intended and the gestalt field just helps keep it going longer. With the AdMech quote, I think that's more down to "I don't understand how it works, so it must just be magic or something".

I also think there's a massive amount of placebo going on. Humans are massively attached to the idea of lucky rabbits feet, not stepping on cracks, doing things in a certain way for reasons. There's no reason why it can't just be that red ones go faster because the fastest vehicles end up getting painted red because reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 04:11:30


 
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Good discussion, I don't have much to add. I think of it as evil suns prioritise speed and their colour is red. Why don't deathskulls paint their vehicles red? Because they favour luck. So the red ones do go faster, but not because they're red

Incidentally my fiancee has the same car as me, only hers is red and mine is blue. Hers does actually go faster, but perhaps that's because it's the sport model. I'm not put off by that, I like to believe mine has a 6++ and objective secured


Objective secured can be very helpful on a crowded parking lot - unlike being faster
   
Made in us
Prospector with Steamdrill




Charlotte, NC

 Kroem wrote:
Well I think the out of universe reason 'red ones go faster' is the old urban legend from the UK that red cars get in more crashes and are more expensive to insure.
I remember hearing it in the 90s so I bet it was going around in the 80s too!


That is over here in the US as well and it was presented to me in economics 101 class as a text book economic fallacy. It is not a car painted red that is the problem, it is the fact that most people who drive recklessly enough to get into significantly more car crashes prefer the color red on their vehicles. Similar fallacy goes for a yellow vehicle in that they have fewer crashes because everyone can see a yellow vehicle better. That is more based on the fact that people's psychology who tend to pick yellow vehicles rather than the color itself.

Going back to the OP, I take this line of thinking to the "red ones go faster" line as well. I tend to think that those orks who are from the Evil Sunz tribe have a more mechanical mind compared to other klans. Thus they probably will be able to find the better vehicles initially as they know what to look for more than other klans, know how to get optimal performance from the vehicle, and they also know how to take care of them better than other klans. And since all of their vehicles are top shape(for an ork) to begin with, they can say that their red-painted vehicle goes faster. Its like going to a vehicle auction with me or an experienced mechanic. I would have no idea which vehicle is worth bidding on, but an experienced mechanic can disqualify half of the vehicles on the auction block, just from his experience on working on that model or with a quick look under the hood and a listen to the engine. Statistically, going to an auto auction with a mechanic will get you better vehicle than by just going with me.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







I agree with a lot of the points here - it isn't ork belief making the red vehicles go faster. Faster vehicles tend to be red - and so any belief that red ones go faster is valid. But not because they believe it - rather, there is some other cause (e.g. genetic memory of the Meks).

I often took this line to be a caricature of people who see a statistic like "a disproportionate number of the prison population consists of minorities" and concludes therefore that "minorities must commit more crimes per unit population" rather than considering any other underlying causes.
   
 
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