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Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Fair enough. Autoguns are more likely weapons for PDF than lasguns. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the stats on lasguns and laspistols identical to those of autoguns and autopistols?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's an Order that literally was the boogeyman of early 8th with Conscripts that used ___guns, was there not?

That's snark, by the way. Las and auto weapons do have the same statlines. But rules being rules, interactions exist that are not the same thing. Putting autoguns onto Conscripts/PDF prevents that from happening.


I guess I was picturing a wide assortment of specific outfits varying by planet (as you say) but with the general theme being that they're wearing something slightly better than the cobbled together 6+ armor of the masses but not as good as proper carapace armor. On a world where cultists are taping together scrap metal, I picture the PDF having something more like kevlar and hard plastic/ceramic plates; albeit maybe only enough to cover their torsos.
But regardless of specifics, a 5+ save compared to a 6+ seems reasonable.

Not really. I've stressed this so many times but it never seems to really stick to people's minds because they always argue about "there's not enough room for variations on a D6!1!1"--there's enough room for granularity to exist with "Flak Vests" being a 6+ and "Flak Armor" being a 5+.

They're not the same thing as much as anyone wants to argue they are. "Flak armor" is a whole setup, while "Flak Vest" is the chest armor only.
It's why I've suggested, repeatedly, that Conscripts and a "Light Infantry Squad"(with a scout deployment/bonus in cover) be downgraded to "Flak Vests" while Infantry templated squads retain their 5+ save via "Flak Armor".


and relatively unimpressive fighting skills (compared to the scarier things in the galaxy). A conscript or infantry squad statline seems like a pretty good fit for that. I'd be inclined to hold off on fielding a ton of tanks/artillery, but honestly you could probably make an argument for those units being easier to supply on some imperial worlds than on remote, contested planets.

The infantry squad statline is not an appropriate fit, as any governor holding back troops of that quality to the point where that is the "standard" can and will be executed if it's found out.

Is that how it works? I know that a planet's tithe to the guard is supposed to be up to a certain standard (you can't just ship out all your old folks and C-listers), but I also thought that your tithe was based on population. So if your planet has 150,000 badasses, and the guard is expecting you to tithe 100,000 badasses, the planet is still left with 50,000 badasses.

Reread the part I've bolded.

Having quality troops present in the PDF isn't an issue. When the entirety of your PDF is on par with a Guard Regiment? That's a problem. There used to be a few exceptions to that. Cadia, for example, did not have a notable PDF until Cruddace's first book, instead relying upon its "Internal Guard" Regiments. Those were full-fledged Guard Regiments that never left Cadia, but were still trained and outfitted to the highest quality.

If your planet has 150k individuals in the PDF? You're tithing 75k tops, not 100k, unless things are Really Bad in that warzone. A governor is considered remiss if they don't maintain a decent standing force.


Plus, I'm pretty sure you could get away with holding onto a smallish number of your relatively competent troops after the tithe. With some appropriately cartoony exceptions, I don't see beauracrats emailing each other the firing range data from the PDF and the guard tithe from the same world to see if some of the remaining PDF were BS 4+ instead of BS5+.

See above.

And then you have all those private armies that aren't necessarily "PDF" per se, but would still end up fighting alongside the PDF during a planetary invasion. Noble houses and navigator houses can afford to keep their own armies of relatively competent soldiers who would presumably be shooting aliens if orkz made planetfall.

And where do you think they recruit from?

The PDF is basically the one Imperial armed forces route where retirement is a possibility!

Basically, being skilled enough to be BS4+ doesn't seem like it should instantly get you teleported into a guard regiment's camp. (Even acknowledging that the IG are supposed to be made up of special forces-level soldiers.)

Sure, but that doesn't also mean that every world is rocking BS4+ or even BS5+ PDFs.

Additionally, there exists a concept called "Kill Squads" within a PDF. It's effectively the PDF version of a Stormtrooper/Scion corps, equipped and outfitted similarly to boot.


Conscripts are the "better" fit, but if you're so damn desperate for a PDF equivalent for whatever army you have? Just go build your own CEQ and keep your mitts out of the Guard book. You lot are why we can't have nice things.

Sounds like we agree that conscripts are a pretty good way to represent the PDF and similar entities. Their existence in the guard codex means that I can use the guard 'dex rules to represent PDF fighting alongside my marines or sisters or what have you. That seems like a good thing to me.

But that's not what got done and one would assume you knew this. The "Loyal 32" came about because of the nerf to Conscripts, resulting in 3x Infantry Squads and 2x HQs(usually a Senior Officer and Primaris Psyker).

There was no rule preventing you from taking anything but Conscripts. That is what I will always, always, ALWAYS fight against whenever people make these threads.

You want a GEQ/CEQ for your army? You go make one up. Stay out of the Guard book. It's really, actually a bad book in terms of the design space used for it and it just continually gets propped up by random gimmicks...and the sooner people can finally realize that by getting their own versions, the better off we'll be as a faction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/19 22:26:50


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:

Fair enough. Autoguns are more likely weapons for PDF than lasguns. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the stats on lasguns and laspistols identical to those of autoguns and autopistols?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's an Order that literally was the boogeyman of early 8th with Conscripts that used ___guns, was there not?

That's snark, by the way. Las and auto weapons do have the same statlines. But rules being rules, interactions exist that are not the same thing. Putting autoguns onto Conscripts/PDF prevents that from happening.


I guess I was picturing a wide assortment of specific outfits varying by planet (as you say) but with the general theme being that they're wearing something slightly better than the cobbled together 6+ armor of the masses but not as good as proper carapace armor. On a world where cultists are taping together scrap metal, I picture the PDF having something more like kevlar and hard plastic/ceramic plates; albeit maybe only enough to cover their torsos.
But regardless of specifics, a 5+ save compared to a 6+ seems reasonable.

Not really. I've stressed this so many times but it never seems to really stick to people's minds because they always argue about "there's not enough room for variations on a D6!1!1"--there's enough room for granularity to exist with "Flak Vests" being a 6+ and "Flak Armor" being a 5+.

They're not the same thing as much as anyone wants to argue they are. "Flak armor" is a whole setup, while "Flak Vest" is the chest armor only.
It's why I've suggested, repeatedly, that Conscripts and a "Light Infantry Squad"(with a scout deployment/bonus in cover) be downgraded to "Flak Vests" while Infantry templated squads retain their 5+ save via "Flak Armor".


and relatively unimpressive fighting skills (compared to the scarier things in the galaxy). A conscript or infantry squad statline seems like a pretty good fit for that. I'd be inclined to hold off on fielding a ton of tanks/artillery, but honestly you could probably make an argument for those units being easier to supply on some imperial worlds than on remote, contested planets.

The infantry squad statline is not an appropriate fit, as any governor holding back troops of that quality to the point where that is the "standard" can and will be executed if it's found out.

Is that how it works? I know that a planet's tithe to the guard is supposed to be up to a certain standard (you can't just ship out all your old folks and C-listers), but I also thought that your tithe was based on population. So if your planet has 150,000 badasses, and the guard is expecting you to tithe 100,000 badasses, the planet is still left with 50,000 badasses.

Reread the part I've bolded.

Having quality troops present in the PDF isn't an issue. When the entirety of your PDF is on par with a Guard Regiment? That's a problem. There used to be a few exceptions to that. Cadia, for example, did not have a notable PDF until Cruddace's first book, instead relying upon its "Internal Guard" Regiments. Those were full-fledged Guard Regiments that never left Cadia, but were still trained and outfitted to the highest quality.

If your planet has 150k individuals in the PDF? You're tithing 75k tops, not 100k, unless things are Really Bad in that warzone. A governor is considered remiss if they don't maintain a decent standing force.


Plus, I'm pretty sure you could get away with holding onto a smallish number of your relatively competent troops after the tithe. With some appropriately cartoony exceptions, I don't see beauracrats emailing each other the firing range data from the PDF and the guard tithe from the same world to see if some of the remaining PDF were BS 4+ instead of BS5+.

See above.

And then you have all those private armies that aren't necessarily "PDF" per se, but would still end up fighting alongside the PDF during a planetary invasion. Noble houses and navigator houses can afford to keep their own armies of relatively competent soldiers who would presumably be shooting aliens if orkz made planetfall.

And where do you think they recruit from?

The PDF is basically the one Imperial armed forces route where retirement is a possibility!

Basically, being skilled enough to be BS4+ doesn't seem like it should instantly get you teleported into a guard regiment's camp. (Even acknowledging that the IG are supposed to be made up of special forces-level soldiers.)

Sure, but that doesn't also mean that every world is rocking BS4+ or even BS5+ PDFs.

Additionally, there exists a concept called "Kill Squads" within a PDF. It's effectively the PDF version of a Stormtrooper/Scion corps, equipped and outfitted similarly to boot.


Conscripts are the "better" fit, but if you're so damn desperate for a PDF equivalent for whatever army you have? Just go build your own CEQ and keep your mitts out of the Guard book. You lot are why we can't have nice things.

Sounds like we agree that conscripts are a pretty good way to represent the PDF and similar entities. Their existence in the guard codex means that I can use the guard 'dex rules to represent PDF fighting alongside my marines or sisters or what have you. That seems like a good thing to me.

But that's not what got done and one would assume you knew this. The "Loyal 32" came about because of the nerf to Conscripts, resulting in 3x Infantry Squads and 2x HQs(usually a Senior Officer and Primaris Psyker).

There was no rule preventing you from taking anything but Conscripts. That is what I will always, always, ALWAYS fight against whenever people make these threads.

You want a GEQ/CEQ for your army? You go make one up. Stay out of the Guard book. It's really, actually a bad book in terms of the design space used for it and it just continually gets propped up by random gimmicks...and the sooner people can finally realize that by getting their own versions, the better off we'll be as a faction.


There's so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.

Can we please stop derailing this thread from what it is? Plug and play rules for taking Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum regiment units in other factions. It's a simplistic way to represent human forces represented across the galaxy, so someone could use them in friendly or narrative games.

If you want to make your own datasheets do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 22:58:11


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

There's already "plug and play rules" for doing that.

It's called "Allies".
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
There's already "plug and play rules" for doing that.

It's called "Allies".


You can't do that for Tau and Guard, or Chaos and Guard. So that's a mute point. 9th edition codexes are also getting rid of allies by giving mono-factions super-doctrines. So that's a mute point too.

These ideas allow simple plug and play without breaking any detachment keywords. It keeps regular Guard unique by removing anything they might have gotten by remaining Guard, but they get some benefits from their new detachments to make them worth testing out.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

You absolutely can do so...with Open and Narrative Play!

Oh, right. You don't want that--you just want to be able to jam Guard into any army.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






It's hardly meta chasing WAAC behaviour. Stop acting like someone punched your mum and be less confrontational.

I think if a couple of factions like T'au, CSM or Knights could take some meatshield (or valued members of the T'auva in the case of the T'au) AM units would go a long way in bringing elements that exist in the background (like Guevesa and Lost and the Damned who aren't going to get a full codex to themselves) into the game. I wouldn't want to build an entire army of Guevesa but a small detachment made from AM units with T'au gubbins attached? That would be doable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 23:44:19


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Then just do a small detachment made from AM units and play it in Open/Narrative.

You don't need benefits for doing it or any kind of special bonus for doing so.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Jarms48 wrote:

Can we please stop derailing this thread from what it is? Plug and play rules for taking Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum regiment units in other factions. It's a simplistic way to represent human forces represented across the galaxy, so someone could use them in friendly or narrative games.


Sure. Sorry. The initial pitch seems fine, though perhaps a bit more complicated and open to problem injection than necessary. (Problem injection coming from applying buffs to guard units that they previously couldn't benefit from). I'd be fine with playing against a rough draft of such rules. However, it might be easier to just copy + paste the GSC rules for allying in guard or even adding a chapter tactic to the main guard book that lets them swap their Imperium keyword for the Chaos or Tau Empire keywords. Then, you could use the stratagem, warlord trait, and relic "slots" to add a dash of synergy between the guard and whatever main faction you're taking them alongside.

I do feel that chaos and tau both benefit more from guard allies than GSC do as GSC already have very similar infantry units to IG and decent ranged firepower units in the form of ridge runners. (Access to russes is nice though.) Not to say that chaos and tau would benefit too much from adding guard units to their roster. Just pointing out that neophytes are already kind of similar in design to guardsmen.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Then just do a small detachment made from AM units and play it in Open/Narrative.

You don't need benefits for doing it or any kind of special bonus for doing so.


You do understand that in Narrative Play, when you start making a Crusade Force you MUST choose a single faction? If a unit does not have the matching faction keyword it cannot be in your crusade force.

Sure, fair point on narrative play. You can take anything you want, but the missions are terrible and are designed to be unfair.

As I said before, the rules I have written are to allow players to legally in narrative and matched play take Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard regiment units to represent the countless human troops mentioned throughout the lore without breaking the detachment abilities of the faction they are joining.

This isn't intended for GW to implement and thus make legal in a tournament setting. It's purely for friendly games using the narrative or matched play options, matched play is the fairest gaming system and thus the most widely used even for friendly games.

If you don't like my rules don't use them. Make your own. But I have made the option for someone who once played Lost and the Damned or Renegades and Heretics to have a chance to go to their friends and say "Hey, I found these cool rules online that let me represent the army that GW removed. Want to test them out?"

Maybe a Tau player always wanted to use some Gue'vesa, or a Guard player wanted to get into Tau and didn't have enough miniatures for a full game. Now they could combine their units together and make a legal list.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Sure. Sorry. The initial pitch seems fine, though perhaps a bit more complicated and open to problem injection than necessary. (Problem injection coming from applying buffs to guard units that they previously couldn't benefit from). I'd be fine with playing against a rough draft of such rules. However, it might be easier to just copy + paste the GSC rules for allying in guard or even adding a chapter tactic to the main guard book that lets them swap their Imperium keyword for the Chaos or Tau Empire keywords. Then, you could use the stratagem, warlord trait, and relic "slots" to add a dash of synergy between the guard and whatever main faction you're taking them alongside.

I do feel that chaos and tau both benefit more from guard allies than GSC do as GSC already have very similar infantry units to IG and decent ranged firepower units in the form of ridge runners. (Access to russes is nice though.) Not to say that chaos and tau would benefit too much from adding guard units to their roster. Just pointing out that neophytes are already kind of similar in design to guardsmen.


I did simplify GSC rules, they do loss access to Auxilla units unfortunately. However, now a Brood Brother Company Commander can actually order a Brood Brother Militarum Tempestus Scion, as well as your standard Regiment units being able to use Taurox Primes (which is currently impossible). It also means you can save the CP cost required for taking Brood Brothers as a separate detachment.

It also means Brood Brothers can now benefit from some GSC abilities. Such as:
- Stratagems: Lurk in the Shadows, Devoted Crew, Hyper-Metabolism, Rigged to Blow, Cult Reinforcements, Detonate Concealed Explosives, and Extra Explosives.
- Psychic Power: Psychic Stimulus, and Might From Beyond.

The other benefit of Brood Brothers is the fact they get both <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> units. Rather than solely <Regiment> units like the other factions.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 02:23:32


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Kanluwen wrote:
Page 99 of the core rulebook solidifies what a "Man at Arms" at least looks like for Knights. It is neither of those things.
...where? The text doesn't mention Men-at-Arms at all, as far as I can see.

Or are you referring to the artwork of an Imperial Knight striding over a mass of human soldiers with spear-banners, clad in what looks very much like Skitarii robes, armour, and bionics?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 01:24:30


 
   
 
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