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mrFickle wrote:
I think it would be cool if CSM made female astartes. That had unique properties associated with the genetic science required to adapt the organs to the female body.

Maybe they would be too powerful for some reason and that’s why the emperor didn’t do it. Seeing as the astartes were a step down in terms of individual power compared to the thunder warriors

Chaos does seem to lack female representation doesn’t it... It would be pretty heretical to make female chaos space marines, if not liberating to a degree. The religious polarization would be interesting as well, and seeing chaos space marines to a degree as not an inherently bad or evil faction, but more of the sorts that have been influenced by similar thoughts as one may have after reading Blake’s marriage of heaven and hell would be very interesting. It’s why the blood gorgons fascinated me. For this reason I think it would really polarize the imperial cult and chaos further with more parallels being drawn between Catholicism and modern day satanism. Since we totally know that the ecclesiarchy is definitely supposed to be the 13th century Catholic Church dialed up to 11 with the grim dark...

Also yeah. Sisters of Battle have been more often than not the whipping boy of the writers that choose to include them. And they also assume a more submissive role than the astartes, answering dutifully and constantly to the ecclesiarchy. The astartes seem to be free to conduct business where and how they wish as long as they live up to their obligations to any potential crusades, and even seem to occupy leadership roles for entire planets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Why is it in Background every year or so you get this thread based on total false equivalence. Sisters are to Space Marines, what Space Marines are to Custodes. Sure, 1 might be able to damage or even kill one given enough help, but 9 out of 1000 times, The custodian will ROFL Stomp the Astartes into paste. Sisters are not, nor have they ever been equal to Astartes. Give Tempestus Scions Power armor and years of training, and there would be zero difference.

To be fair I wasn’t trying to draw that false equivalence. I was trying to explore whether or not the reason female space marines don’t exist is purely on a misogynist gender role expectation rather than science, and was advocating for considering the actual possibility. As well as the implications for what it means for the imperium.

jareddm wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I could be crazy, but I always thought the core issue was less that space marines were all male and more that they are the poster boy of 40k. They're the closest thing to a protagonist the setting has. And to make a protagonist faction in a game with roleplaying characteristics always felt a bit unfair.

I think if we lived in an alternate universe where SOB held the position of space marines, you would have people wishing to add men.

No idea how we move away from that. Yeah, you could add woman to primaris marines, but people already have lukewarm feeling towards the primaris release. You could also give equal attention to the various imperium factions, but that sounds equally as impossible.

I thought the 9th edition trailer did exactly that. Astartes and Sisters were both shown in a positive light, with different yet equally valued skills.

True. And those limited edition Imperial Guard characters they released were pretty cool. It's also nice to see GW making a concerted push to sell more SOB with all those new kits. I'm still holding out hope that GW one day updates the IG kit with male and female heads.

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel part of the problem is that realistically that assuming they would want women for some reason to become SM, the majority of SM trials forced on aspirants would mean that women who were chosen would be weeded out incredibly early on just given the biological advantages a man has over a woman physically. Think about US Navy Seals, they're open to women to join but so far no one has joined or made it past the initial training to make the cut. Now imagine that, but 10x worse and grueling, with additional possibility of you not being able to cope with the marine implants. The likelihood of women becoming marines, even with this change, would be so low that their representation would be incredibly rare and thus basically pointless besides as a token attempt at representation.

I'd much prefer they show more female representation in the guard than marines, because not only is it more realistic there, but the model range is already in desperate need of a reboot and it doesn't require significant retconning to make it happen.

This, plus the point that it'd pretty much invalidate Sister of Battle. Give us more female Tau, Guard, Mechanicus, and Eldar minis instead (and update more of the older lines while they're at it!)

macluvin wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I think it would be cool if CSM made female astartes. That had unique properties associated with the genetic science required to adapt the organs to the female body.

Maybe they would be too powerful for some reason and that’s why the emperor didn’t do it. Seeing as the astartes were a step down in terms of individual power compared to the thunder warriors

Chaos does seem to lack female representation doesn’t it... It would be pretty heretical to make female chaos space marines, if not liberating to a degree. The religious polarization would be interesting as well, and seeing chaos space marines to a degree as not an inherently bad or evil faction, but more of the sorts that have been influenced by similar thoughts as one may have after reading Blake’s marriage of heaven and hell would be very interesting. It’s why the blood gorgons fascinated me. For this reason I think it would really polarize the imperial cult and chaos further with more parallels being drawn between Catholicism and modern day satanism. Since we totally know that the ecclesiarchy is definitely supposed to be the 13th century Catholic Church dialed up to 11 with the grim dark...

What?, We got female traitor guard and female cultists, including a female champ for that. That's more female representation than guard.

Also yeah. Sisters of Battle have been more often than not the whipping boy of the writers that choose to include them. And they also assume a more submissive role than the astartes, answering dutifully and constantly to the ecclesiarchy. The astartes seem to be free to conduct business where and how they wish as long as they live up to their obligations to any potential crusades, and even seem to occupy leadership roles for entire planets.

If you think sisters get beaten up often by writers, never ever consider R&H / Cults / lost and the damend, which solely exist to facilitate some guard competecy and range on the food chain so far down that they all but guaranteed lose whenever they appear

On the whole "female Marines invalidating SoB", how do they do that?
SoB are a religious fighting force made up of orphans from the various Schola across the Imperium. They worship the Emperor and can perform miracles.
Astartes are mostly secular, viewing the Emeror as a sort of father figure rather than a God. They recruit from anywhere and the process includes huge amounts of surgery/genetic alterations to the point where technically Astartes are no longer human.
They both wear power armour, use bolt weapons and kill the enemies of humanity. That's where the similarities end. Non-male Astartes doesn't eliminate the reason for SoB existing because they are fundamentally different organisations.


Also, can people leave their poor understanding of the political spectrum at the door please.

 Gert wrote:

Also, can people leave their poor understanding of the political spectrum at the door please.

Can people just not bring it up at all when its not relevant, also please try to remember the other three rules here like not being rude and not spamming. Thanks.

Arcanis161 wrote:IMO, they'd make Sisters of Battle redundant.

Disagree, on the sole basis that Custodes don't make Space Marines redundant by the same virtue.

They have vastly different aesthetics, playstyles, and background - I don't think Space Marines are as defined by their gender as Sisters are. Sisters being women (via the Decree Passive) is much more integral to their identity and in-universe reasoning than "uh, the space science isn't good enough yet" (and we can even infer from Malcador that it would have been *entirely* possible to have Primarchs who were women - but the Emperor laughed the idea off).

Yes, there are absolutely some stylistic hallmarks of the whole "warrior monk" thing with the Astartes, but there are far more Chapters who don't fit so neatly into that all-male box - Space Wolves certainly don't, and Ultramarines have seemed to move into a more Greco-Roman styling than the robes and hoods of the Black Templars and Dark Angels.

So, nah, I really don't think adding women into the Astartes would make Sisters redundant.

Sisters of Battle wear Power Armor, use Space Marine-lite weapons, and, while not as physically strong as Space Marines or Custodes, their faith "powers" allow them to achieve feats and "miracles" that even Space Marines would not be able to achieve.

And Custodes wear powered armour, use Space Marine+ weapons (bolt weapons) and while not as weak as Astartes, their more restrictive and close range arsenal level the playing field.

Allowing the same level of augmentation for females removes the need for the Sisters of Battle.

Disagree, on the sole basis that the same could be said for why you don't need Custodes. The point is that the augmentation is incredibly costly to becoming an Astartes, so it's hardly like every Sororitas recruit would survive. Should Scions not exist, because Space Marines do? Custodes?

I feel it is a more profound statement that an all female nun order is the best class of soldier that regular humans have to offer.

They can be both. I don't see how having women recruits into the Astartes devalues the Sororitas.

Grimskul wrote:I think it's kind of disingenous to bring up 1st edition stuff as canon at all to what exists now, given that we had things like Obi Wan Sherlock Clouseau and Chief Librarian Tigurius being a half-Eldar/half-human.

Slight fact check - it wasn't Tigurius that was the half-Eldar, it was another named character, but they were the chief instead of Tiggy.

And, funnily enough, has actually been re-made canon in I think the latest Indomitus era book. So, uh, perhaps those callbacks to 1st aren't entirely unwarranted.

It was also a time where they were trying to see what stuck rather than anything that really resembled what 40k looks like now.

Indeed - so why is the "women don't sell well" still something adhered to? Times have changed. On a purely corporate level, it may be worth reconsidering if women Astartes would be the loss they were all those decades ago.

Also, I'm assuming you haven't caught up with how Cawl has been able to upgrade SM at all in the fluff, but he's basically been given access to the sangprimus portum which has the raw material of all the primarchs. He basically has the personality and knowledge of one of the key geneticists that were involved in the creation of the Astartes with the Emperor among several other Mechanicus individuals. Given how long he has lived, it makes sense that he would be able to improve on the Emperor's work, especially since the Emp basically gave him his blessing in his endeavours as well. Now obviously this is something that was added recently, but it's not like he did it overnight with no prep time or experience, 10K years seems like a reasonable time in 40k standards to overhaul one of the top fighting weapons of the Imperium.

I don't think it's unreasonable that he could've figured out how to make women Astartes in that same time frame.

As I said before, while there are outliers to females being able to compete almost on par with men, you then also have to factor the extreme outliers to men themselves that they are also competing against.

I'd like to point out that Astartes recruits are pre-pubescent. There's barely any physical differences. Moving on.

SoB are already a much more compelling faction and one that has a more interesting backstory and basis.

And Space Marines, I find, are more interesting than the Custodes. Why do Custodes exist, if they're also an all-male heavy armoured bolt-weapon wielding elite army?

I seriously don't get why women Astartes would stand on the feet of Sororitas.

Hell, we could expand on Sisters of Silence more if you want more female representation if you're not satisfied with more rep in the Guard.

That's not how this works. Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, and the Guard aren't Space Marines. And Space Marines are, like it or not, the most iconic 40k faction. They're the ones with the easily recognisable aesthetic and design. They're the ones plastered on all 40k media. They're the ones that sell. They're the ones that, if you point to, most people will actually recognise as being 40k.

While Space Marines have that dominant position in culture, it doesn't matter if every other faction is mixed or all-women, because the flagship faction puts a very "boys only" message front and centre.

harlokin wrote:I prefer the idea of Space Marines being beyond definable biological sex as a result of the process they go through; the ultimate defenders of humanity lose a vital element of what made them human.

Agreed. That's why I'd like women recruits - because it would further amplify that. Having this artificial "uh, we can't have women" creates this idea that, while on paper Astartes are sexless killing machines, it's only men who get that "chance". Having both would give opportunities to explore that eradication of humanity without a gender bias.

And absolutely agreed - from a modelling perspective, boobplate wouldn't exist. I imagine their heads would look like Stormcast ones.

I don't want female Space Marines simply to deny satisfaction to those clamouring for them in order to virtue signal.

That's definitely a thing that rational people do.

Mr Nobody wrote:I could be crazy, but I always thought the core issue was less that space marines were all male and more that they are the poster boy of 40k. They're the closest thing to a protagonist the setting has. And to make a protagonist faction in a game with roleplaying characteristics with exclusive factors always felt a bit unfair.

Yeah, that's he main concern here. It's that the most iconic faction has a big old "boys only" sign right on top of it, and that, coupled with the amount of people clamouring to uphold that if only to keep out those Gosh Darned Virtue Signallers, isn't exactly a good look.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:It's every terrible sin, made manifest, and justified, in the interest of mankind's "Better future" promised by a long dead Christ figure that believed the best course of humanity was to lean hard right into the world of hardcore Socialism.

uuuuuuuuh...

Kepora wrote:Wrong. Fascism is nationalistic socialism. Even the guy who created/first really promoted the idea, Mussolini, called it "The most perfect form of socialism".

...UHHHHHHH

I really think some of y'all need to go back to school before you start talking politics.

It doesn't matter. If it were more financially beneficial to include female astartes they would have with primaris marines. GW isn't trying to position themselves as a mass-market product, and it's clear from the way they handle things like Primaris that they're incredibly cautious in how they treat their whale consumers, because I would be willing to bet that the top 3-5% of customers make up about 30-35% of GW's revenue, and they buy a lot of space marines.

The mystical fig leaf that somehow organ transplants have become gendered, and surviving an organ transplant procedure is somehow easier with MANSTRENGTH THE STRONG STRENGTH ONLY MEN HAVE will stand.

They can't even make a new kit for a single space marine unit. They cant even say "this obviously the exact same space marine bike unit we just made a new kit for, is the new kit for space marine bikes." They keep awkwardly selling the old 3rd edition bike kit alongside the new biker kit, THATS how gently they're handling the delicate, easily bruised skin of their precious precious babies. There is 0 chance they'll just turn around and be like 'syke, lady marines now, deal with it NERDS.'

In my mind the space marine transformation and development was tuned to the male development cycle. That was why they made space marines out of prepubescents. The natural development cycle was used supplemented and exaggerated to make space marines. Using females would throw the timing off.

Well that's my headcannon anyway.

 the_scotsman wrote:
MANSTRENGTH THE STRONG STRENGTH ONLY MEN HAVE

Actual Imperial propaganda.

 the_scotsman wrote:

They can't even make a new kit for a single space marine unit. They cant even say "this obviously the exact same space marine bike unit we just made a new kit for, is the new kit for space marine bikes." They keep awkwardly selling the old 3rd edition bike kit alongside the new biker kit, THATS how gently they're handling the delicate, easily bruised skin of their precious precious babies. There is 0 chance they'll just turn around and be like 'syke, lady marines now, deal with it NERDS.'

I suspect this is partly true, but I also suspect GW know they have the chance of continuing to sell an ancient kit that’s likely paid for its development a hundred times over. Why discontinue the firstborn kits when they know they can still sell both. We won’t likely see the discontinuation of things like tactical marines and OG bikes until their sales drop below what makes them profitable, or the mould wears out.

 General Kroll wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

They can't even make a new kit for a single space marine unit. They cant even say "this obviously the exact same space marine bike unit we just made a new kit for, is the new kit for space marine bikes." They keep awkwardly selling the old 3rd edition bike kit alongside the new biker kit, THATS how gently they're handling the delicate, easily bruised skin of their precious precious babies. There is 0 chance they'll just turn around and be like 'syke, lady marines now, deal with it NERDS.'

I suspect this is partly true, but I also suspect GW know they have the chance of continuing to sell an ancient kit that’s likely paid for its development a hundred times over. Why discontinue the firstborn kits when they know they can still sell both. We won’t likely see the discontinuation of things like tactical marines and OG bikes until their sales drop below what makes them profitable, or the mould wears out.

If GW felt like they could deal with the fallout of discontinuing existing space marine ranges with primaris stuff they absolutely would. There is no way that releasing a unit like Outriders and having the supernerds do the mathhammer on them and go "welp, nope, looks like space marine bikers are actually better boys!" doesn't cost GW some sales.

Theres a reason Ork Warbuggies are legended. There's a reason they've tried to quietly squat the warboss on warbike for ages. GW absolutely cans the old stuff and frames a new kit as a replacement whenever they possibly can, and they generally mess around with base size, unit size, etc whenever possible to make it more awkward to continue to use the old sculpt (see Ghazghkull, new greater demons, new belakor, etc for examples of that)

NGL I would enjoy them doing that tbh, just for the fun of it.
"Oh what, you DON'T want female Astartes? Well, you know what? There are now ONLY female Astartes "

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:IMO, they'd make Sisters of Battle redundant.

Disagree, on the sole basis that Custodes don't make Space Marines redundant by the same virtue.

They have vastly different aesthetics, playstyles, and background - I don't think Space Marines are as defined by their gender as Sisters are. Sisters being women (via the Decree Passive) is much more integral to their identity and in-universe reasoning than "uh, the space science isn't good enough yet" (and we can even infer from Malcador that it would have been *entirely* possible to have Primarchs who were women - but the Emperor laughed the idea off).

Yes, there are absolutely some stylistic hallmarks of the whole "warrior monk" thing with the Astartes, but there are far more Chapters who don't fit so neatly into that all-male box - Space Wolves certainly don't, and Ultramarines have seemed to move into a more Greco-Roman styling than the robes and hoods of the Black Templars and Dark Angels.

So, nah, I really don't think adding women into the Astartes would make Sisters redundant.

Sisters of Battle wear Power Armor, use Space Marine-lite weapons, and, while not as physically strong as Space Marines or Custodes, their faith "powers" allow them to achieve feats and "miracles" that even Space Marines would not be able to achieve.

And Custodes wear powered armour, use Space Marine+ weapons (bolt weapons) and while not as weak as Astartes, their more restrictive and close range arsenal level the playing field.

Allowing the same level of augmentation for females removes the need for the Sisters of Battle.

Disagree, on the sole basis that the same could be said for why you don't need Custodes. The point is that the augmentation is incredibly costly to becoming an Astartes, so it's hardly like every Sororitas recruit would survive. Should Scions not exist, because Space Marines do? Custodes?

I feel it is a more profound statement that an all female nun order is the best class of soldier that regular humans have to offer.

They can be both. I don't see how having women recruits into the Astartes devalues the Sororitas.

Custodes are the Emperor's personal bodyguard and are listed in the fluff as being very rare and few in number.

Space Marines offer a large degree of customizability, decades of lore, and a rather large amount of model support. They are advertised as being the "heroes of the 41st millennium."

Scions bring a Special Forces element to tbe Guard, an army largely known for heaps of lightly armed and armored bodies with heavy vehicle support. I'd say the fact they haven't released much after the Scion, Bullgryn, and Taurox kits indicates GW's faith in them becoming their own army.

Sororitas bring a Cadre of women in power armor with faith powers and heavy religious iconography. Up until recent years, they've been badly maligned in the fluff and in model support.

If female Space Marines are created, then all the Sororitas have to offer are those faith powers and religious zealotry and iconography. I hate to say this, but given recent trends, I don't see those alone appealing to a large enough audience to warrant both Sororitas and female Space Marines.

EDIT: let me put it this way: Space Marines, more than most other factions, are meant to be "your dudes", correct? Say female Space Marines are released tomorrow. You could say that your female Space Marines are similar to Black Templars, and model them with tons of religious iconography, correct? Well, now you have stronger Sisters of Battle, minus the faith powers. Again, I don't see faith powers, religious zealots, and/or religious iconography appealing to a broad enough audience on their own.

Considering the huge clamour and acclaim the updated SoB range got, I'm not sure you're right on this.
Their background, rules and model range are different enough from SM that they absolutely would still be appealing to many.

 Gert wrote:
NGL I would enjoy them doing that tbh, just for the fun of it.
"Oh what, you DON'T want female Astartes? Well, you know what? There are now ONLY female Astartes "

To be honest it's worth them doing it because it turn all those supposed "cold logical internet types" into a big amorphous blob of frothing hatred and the biggest hissy fit imaginable.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Gert wrote:
NGL I would enjoy them doing that tbh, just for the fun of it.
"Oh what, you DON'T want female Astartes? Well, you know what? There are now ONLY female Astartes "

To be honest it's worth them doing it because it turn all those supposed "cold logical internet types" into a big amorphous blob of frothing hatred and the biggest hissy fit imaginable.

....I'll be honest it is one of the biggest reasons I do want them to do it. There's something that uniquely amuses me about watching the people who whine and moan the loudest about cancel culture wholeheartedly engage in the most vicious and vitriolic version of it over some meaningless microaggression like some company putting a little plastic head with a ponytail sculpted on it in their box of toy soldiers.

What?, We got female traitor guard and female cultists, including a female champ for that. That's more female representation than guard.

Ah yes... the legends exclusive traitor guard (spoken as squatted) in one of the most unplayable armies in the game... and the 2 female cultist models from blackstone fortress... The lack of female representation in imperial guard is it’s own problem that doesn’t mean other model lines don’t have their own similar problems. Also there is a female commissar and catachan... Also I’m not going to say space marines NEED female models or fluff support, I just think it would be a bit more interesting and egalitarian of the writer’s and owners of the IP to shift the fluff of why space marines are all male from the standpoint that it’s biology to its misogyny (of the Emperor and to a lesser degree the primarchs, and set the culture of the space marines). I think it would be better overall to just crank out some female space marines heads, and quite frankly if they could survive the gakstorm of making space marines with twice the space and twice the marine I am certain that they can deal with the rage of putting female heads in a space marine box as optional alternate heads...

macluvin wrote:

What?, We got female traitor guard and female cultists, including a female champ for that. That's more female representation than guard.

Ah yes... the legends exclusive traitor guard (spoken as squatted) in one of the most unplayable armies in the game... and the 2 female cultist models from blackstone fortress... The lack of female representation in imperial guard is it’s own problem that doesn’t mean other model lines don’t have their own similar problems. Also there is a female commissar and catachan... Also I’m not going to say space marines NEED female models or fluff support, I just think it would be a bit more interesting and egalitarian of the writer’s and owners of the IP to shift the fluff of why space marines are all male from the standpoint that it’s biology to its misogyny (of the Emperor and to a lesser degree the primarchs, and set the culture of the space marines). I think it would be better overall to just crank out some female space marines heads, and quite frankly if they could survive the gakstorm of making space marines with twice the space and twice the marine I am certain that they can deal with the rage of putting female heads in a space marine box as optional alternate heads...

Don't you worry, the fool I am, I have a R&H army in the works. Legends be damned, I have rules and I'll play with them!

Although that gives me a thought. Maybe I should give them a coven of witches for rogue psykers. Now there's a model I'd buy from GW.

Why doesn't female Space Marines exist? Simple really - The Emperor Of Mankind was not a heterosexual man. He probably also loved Tom Of Finland Artwork.

On a more serious note, I think it's the "UK scifi" background of the setting. Catholic schools where boys and girls were separated, these were the institutions where the GW authors were raised. That's my guess, and also explains why gender issues, sexuality and sex in general doesn't really exist in the warhammer lore. That's my theory anyway.

BTW nothing's stopping you from plopping a female head onto a Space Marine model. Go nuts! I don't actually think anyone would have any qualms about playing against you even if you did that.

When it comes to Chaos, it's more odd that they don't seem to have any female marines or sisters equivalent. Chaos is supposed to be more of a meritocracy than the Imperium; the gods don't (or shouldn't) care about gender and can use warp nonsense to boost anyone from normal to superpowered if they want to.

Chaos might be a "meritocracy" overall but the Legions and Renegade chapters are still a boys club. Savona from the Fabius Bile books, despite being a formidable warrior and a member of a renowned Lord's inner circle, is constantly derided and looked down on since she is not an Astartes and never can be because she is female. A mortal woman could easily rise to the position of leadership in a Chaos Cult or fleet but would be extremely unlikely to lead a CSM Warband. 40k Chaos ain't as free as AoS Chaos.


England is a Protestant country and Catholic schools only make up about 10% of state/public schools there. Of course, as I do not know the creators of Warhammer personally it is entirely possible they came from Catholic backgrounds but considering the history of Catholics in England, I very much doubt it.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Gert wrote:
NGL I would enjoy them doing that tbh, just for the fun of it.
"Oh what, you DON'T want female Astartes? Well, you know what? There are now ONLY female Astartes "

To be honest it's worth them doing it because it turn all those supposed "cold logical internet types" into a big amorphous blob of frothing hatred and the biggest hissy fit imaginable.

You mean the way you guys threw hissy fits over 5E Necron lore?

Totally happened across a quote randomly from Alan Merrett... Basically the only reason why we don’t have female space marines was simply because female models weren’t selling in the early days... I really doubt GW is going to do anything with space marines anyways since that would require releasing even more space ma-.... ima shut up now...

 Gert wrote:
Chaos might be a "meritocracy" overall but the Legions and Renegade chapters are still a boys club. Savona from the Fabius Bile books, despite being a formidable warrior and a member of a renowned Lord's inner circle, is constantly derided and looked down on since she is not an Astartes and never can be because she is female. A mortal woman could easily rise to the position of leadership in a Chaos Cult or fleet but would be extremely unlikely to lead a CSM Warband. 40k Chaos ain't as free as AoS Chaos.

Sure, I didn't mean women could become part of an established legion. I was thinking more of a chaos equivalent to the Sororitas: women in power armor with faith on their side, not just your average cultist girl.

Mirael sabatiel

Also that one order that purged itself.
Chances are chaos sisters exist.

Also, it's clear the dark path stands open to all, it's just more difficult for regular humans to achieve then end goal and their ascendancy is in general lower ranking than daemonprince, simply because they can't accumulate enough favour before either going spawn or daemon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You mean the way you guys threw hissy fits over 5E Necron lore?

I mean I've never said anything about 5th Ed Necron lore soooooo. And just for the record, I played Necrons in 5th and had no prior experience and thought the lore was pretty cool.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:IMO, they'd make Sisters of Battle redundant.

Disagree, on the sole basis that Custodes don't make Space Marines redundant by the same virtue.

They have vastly different aesthetics, playstyles, and background - I don't think Space Marines are as defined by their gender as Sisters are. Sisters being women (via the Decree Passive) is much more integral to their identity and in-universe reasoning than "uh, the space science isn't good enough yet" (and we can even infer from Malcador that it would have been *entirely* possible to have Primarchs who were women - but the Emperor laughed the idea off).

Yes, there are absolutely some stylistic hallmarks of the whole "warrior monk" thing with the Astartes, but there are far more Chapters who don't fit so neatly into that all-male box - Space Wolves certainly don't, and Ultramarines have seemed to move into a more Greco-Roman styling than the robes and hoods of the Black Templars and Dark Angels.

So, nah, I really don't think adding women into the Astartes would make Sisters redundant.

Sisters of Battle wear Power Armor, use Space Marine-lite weapons, and, while not as physically strong as Space Marines or Custodes, their faith "powers" allow them to achieve feats and "miracles" that even Space Marines would not be able to achieve.

And Custodes wear powered armour, use Space Marine+ weapons (bolt weapons) and while not as weak as Astartes, their more restrictive and close range arsenal level the playing field.

Allowing the same level of augmentation for females removes the need for the Sisters of Battle.

Disagree, on the sole basis that the same could be said for why you don't need Custodes. The point is that the augmentation is incredibly costly to becoming an Astartes, so it's hardly like every Sororitas recruit would survive. Should Scions not exist, because Space Marines do? Custodes?

I feel it is a more profound statement that an all female nun order is the best class of soldier that regular humans have to offer.

They can be both. I don't see how having women recruits into the Astartes devalues the Sororitas.

Custodes are the Emperor's personal bodyguard and are listed in the fluff as being very rare and few in number.

And Sisters are unaugmented zealots directly answerable to the Ecclesiarchy, and are listed in the fluff as being much more numerous than Astartes. Just as different from Astartes as Astartes are to Custodes.

Space Marines offer a large degree of customizability, decades of lore, and a rather large amount of model support. They are advertised as being the "heroes of the 41st millennium."

Exactly. I'd say that not being able to have female-presenting heads rather hampers that customisability. Their gender is not the important part of their identity, so should be left neutral. And exactly as you say - offer customisability, much more lore and background material, and model support - Sisters don't. There's very clearly a niche there that Sisters don't occupy, so reducing Sisters to "the women in power armour" does both Astartes and Sororitas a disservice.

Sororitas bring a Cadre of women in power armor with faith powers and heavy religious iconography. Up until recent years, they've been badly maligned in the fluff and in model support.

Agreed. Not the same thing as Space Marines at all then - so why would having female presenting Astartes step on any of those toes?

If female Space Marines are created, then all the Sororitas have to offer are those faith powers and religious zealotry and iconography.

That's still more than what the Custodes offer and the Scions do though.

The very fact that you don't specify the gender of Space Marines or Custodes in your "selling points" of those factions tells me that you don't see their gender as essential to their identity - but you *do* for Sisters. However, if aside from the whole "women in power armour" part, you see the only difference between Sisters and Astartes as their faith, aesthetic, zealotry (as well as levels of augmentation, model support, background, and prominence in marketing - all of which you skipped over!) and you think that's too similar, then I don't see how you can't also think that about Custodes and Astartes.

I mean, aside from their power armour, how are they different? Augmented differently? Yep. Different aesthetics? Yup. But guarding the Emperor? I don't know, the Imperial Fists are pretty big on the whole Terra guarding part. Doesn't sound all that different to me.

Seriously, Sisters, even without bringing their gender into it, are much more distinct from Astartes than Custodes are from Astartes.

I hate to say this, but given recent trends, I don't see those alone appealing to a large enough audience to warrant both Sororitas and female Space Marines.

Recent trends? You mean the massive outpouring of love for Sisters, and the resurgence of women Astartes projects and conversions that came with the Primaris release? There's definitely an audience out there, and I don't think for a second that adding women Astartes would take away from the Sisters release.

Let me put it this way: Space Marines, more than most other factions, are meant to be "your dudes", correct? Say female Space Marines are released tomorrow. You could say that your female Space Marines are similar to Black Templars, and model them with tons of religious iconography, correct? Well, now you have stronger Sisters of Battle, minus the faith powers.

In which case, Your Dude Space Marines could be coloured in gold, have lots of aquila and eagle imagery, and carry power glaives and halberds. Oh, and they fanatically guard the Emperor.

Don't really need those Custodes any more, do you?

No, absolutely not - Space Marines are the most popular faction, the flagship - that is a niche that Sisters simply cannot replicate. Their method of warfare, entirely different. Their gameplay and stats - entirely different.

Honestly, I'm kinda at a loss with how badly you're underselling the Sisters, because it really just sounds like you see their gender as their only selling point.

Again, I don't see faith powers, religious zealots, and/or religious iconography appealing to a broad enough audience on their own.

But you see being gold and having pointy sticks being enough? Because, really, how much more different are the Custodes?

Speaking of this topic, I think I just stumbled onto another female marine sculpt from back in the day. I mean, just look at that chest plate

This one's from Bryan Ansell's personal collection

The full blog can be found at
http://eldritchepistles.blogspot.com/2013/07/bryan-ansells-rogue-trader-space.html

This will be my last response, as I feel I know where this will lead; for our collective sanity, it would be best to stop here.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If female Space Marines are created, then all the Sororitas have to offer are those faith powers and religious zealotry and iconography.

That's still more than what the Custodes offer and the Scions do though.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. As far as I see it, the religious zealotry and iconography of the Sisters is equivalent to the gold, special weapons, Space Marines++, and bodyguard duty of the Custodes and the "Spec Ops" of the Scions.

To move things around to address a bit coherently (I hope?)

and you think that's too similar, then I don't see how you can't also think that about Custodes and Astartes.

I kinda do though? You asked:

Let me put it this way: Space Marines, more than most other factions, are meant to be "your dudes", correct? Say female Space Marines are released tomorrow. You could say that your female Space Marines are similar to Black Templars, and model them with tons of religious iconography, correct? Well, now you have stronger Sisters of Battle, minus the faith powers.

In which case, Your Dude Space Marines could be coloured in gold, have lots of aquila and eagle imagery, and carry power glaives and halberds. Oh, and they fanatically guard the Emperor.

Don't really need those Custodes any more, do you?

In that instance, put them on Terra (or give the Imperial Fists Gold Armor, Dark-Age tech, and spears), then yeah, in my opinion, that kills the design space of the Custodes, making them irrelevant. History and fluff can always be retconned, and with GW, it often is, so while I enjoy it, I don't consider it.

I will say though that if GW does something like this, I won't be happy.

Now, onto Sisters:

The very fact that you don't specify the gender of Space Marines or Custodes in your "selling points" of those factions tells me that you don't see their gender as essential to their identity

Nice trap you got there.

"Essential"? Questionable for sure, but it is currently a key part of their identity. I would have thought this would have been a bit obvious given 40k descending from a largely male-viewpoint focused and oriented time period in popular media. I got bored enough in my college media classes so I won't bore you with further explanation of the history of 80's-90's media and GW's initial market.

- but you *do* for Sisters.

Key is in the name, Sisters of Battle, not Zealots of Battle or Clergy of Battle.

Also, I feel that, because all current Space Marines are male, and that's part of what they are currently, Sisters of Battle being all female means that them being female is an essential part of who they are. Recall from when GW first made and released them, wasn't a part of their decision to make them to have women in power armor as a contrast to the Space Marines being (augmented) men in power armor?

I like the Sisters of Battle as they are now. I like that GW is releasing more models for them. I bought the Sisters box when it was announced specifically because they were so maligned and ignored for many years.

I like that being "women in power armor" is an essential part of who the Sisters of Battle are. As I said early in this thread, I think that them being regular "women in power armor" and also being the best un-augmented human soldiers in the galaxy is a very powerful feminist statement, far more so than "Space Marine Women" would be.

However, if aside from the whole "women in power armour" part, you see the only difference between Sisters and Astartes as their faith, aesthetic, zealotry (as well as levels of augmentation, model support, background, and prominence in marketing - all of which you skipped over!) and you think that's too similar, then I don't see how you can't also think that about Custodes and Astartes.

I do though.

Seriously, Sisters, even without bringing their gender into it, are much more distinct from Astartes than Custodes are from Astartes.

As I said, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. If you leave aside gender, I feel what Sisters and Custodes each bring, while yes different from each other, are none the less equivalently different from Space Marines.

Space Marines offer a large degree of customizability, decades of lore, and a rather large amount of model support. They are advertised as being the "heroes of the 41st millennium."

Exactly. I'd say that not being able to have female-presenting heads rather hampers that customisability.

...and? What makes this such a big issue? I'd compare not having robot, skeleton, or Tau heads also hampers customizability, but I don't think you'd appreciate that comparison.

And exactly as you say - offer customisability, much more lore and background material, and model support - Sisters don't. There's very clearly a niche there that Sisters don't occupy, so reducing Sisters to "the women in power armour" does both Astartes and Sororitas a disservice.

I'll answer this one with the next response. Though I will add here that, announced recently, were a Sisters version of a Predator, Sisters version of a Centurion, a Sisters version of a Lieutenant, and a Sisters version of Vanguard Veterans. I think these add a lot more similarity between the two.

Sororitas bring a Cadre of women in power armor with faith powers and heavy religious iconography. Up until recent years, they've been badly maligned in the fluff and in model support.

Agreed. Not the same thing as Space Marines at all then - so why would having female presenting Astartes step on any of those toes?

Because, in my opinion, faith powers and heavy religious iconography are not enough of a difference then.

Let's assume female Space Marines are announced tomorrow. Let's list what both they and Sisters would bring to the table (ignoring fluff as my explanation above).

Female Space Marines would bring:
Augmented human
Female in Power Armor

Sisters of Battle currently bring:
Unaugmented human
Female in Power Armor
Faith Powers
Religious Iconography

So, religious iconography can be added to a kit of female Space Marines with enough hobby skills, so that could potentially scratch one difference right there.

Female Space Marines would be augmented, while Sisters would not be. So, that kinda makes Sisters worse? At least from a perspective of someone not familiar with lore/fluff of 40k?

What would be the significant difference that Sisters have that would appeal to new players or current players of other factions? Their Faith Powers? My answer on that below:

I hate to say this, but given recent trends, I don't see those alone appealing to a large enough audience to warrant both Sororitas and female Space Marines.

Recent trends? You mean the massive outpouring of love for Sisters, and the resurgence of women Astartes projects and conversions that came with the Primaris release? There's definitely an audience out there, and I don't think for a second that adding women Astartes would take away from the Sisters release.