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Counter-Offensive + Paroxysm + Mass Hypnosis and Charging vs Cult of Strife + Emperor's Children  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Well, if you have chargers and non-chargers, and you want a non-charger to fight before a charger, you can Counter-Offensive off of your opponent's Counter-Offensive... but that's a very nichey niche.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

skchsan,
I still don't know why you are trying to claim my conclusion allows the 'Selected Unit to magically become 'Eligible.'
The Rule in debate literally states it only works on Eligible Units, which is defined via Charge status and Engagement range!

The issue I highlighted is another Rule literally states no Unit may be Selected if there is even one Unit with the 'charged' condition.
Nothing within Counter-Offensive allows us to ignore this restriction - even though that renders this Stratagem literally useless!

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 JinxDragon wrote:
skchsan,
I still don't know why you are trying to claim my conclusion allows the 'Selected Unit to magically become 'Eligible.'
The Rule in debate literally states it only works on Eligible Units, which is defined via Charge status and Engagement range!

The issue I highlighted is another Rule literally states no Unit may be Selected if there is even one Unit with the 'charged' condition.
Nothing within Counter-Offensive allows us to ignore this restriction - even though that renders this Stratagem literally useless!


We all know GW has some issues with writing rules in a technically perfect way. Can we at least agree that, Rules as INTENDED, Counter-Offensive is not intended to be a 2 CP point-sink?

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





 JinxDragon wrote:
skchsan,
I still don't know why you are trying to claim my conclusion allows the 'Selected Unit to magically become 'Eligible.'
The Rule in debate literally states it only works on Eligible Units, which is defined via Charge status and Engagement range!

The issue I highlighted is another Rule literally states no Unit may be Selected if there is even one Unit with the 'charged' condition.
Nothing within Counter-Offensive allows us to ignore this restriction - even though that renders this Stratagem literally useless!
No, I'm just trying to get you to read between the lines, as I cannot tell you how you should internalize the information provided.


 JinxDragon wrote:
DoctorTom,
I am saying there are certain Rules out there which forbid an otherwise 'Eligible Unit' from being 'Selected to Fight.'
Do we allow these Units to 'Be Selected to Fight' via the evocation of Counter-Offensive, because all it refers to is 'Eligible Units?'

All I have been trying to highlight this whole time is thus:
Both Yes and No will cause wonky results if we use strict Rules as Written....


As long as the ability itself does not redact your eligibility to fight (i.e. Judicar's Tempormortis), then Counter-Offensive can be used to push the unit's pecking order up to the same 'priority' as those who charged.

Note, the wording on counter offensive prohibits you from activating it before the charging player's first unit to swing ("... after enemy makes attack"). So, the charging player will always be able to activate his first unit first, at which time at your discretion, any and all subsequent units 'fighting first' due to having charged can be interrupted via counter offensive (FAQ notes 'always fight first' and 'fight last' rules cancel each other out, only. It does not cover this grey area where a unit is eligible but not able to be selected example).

Alternatively, you can also use counter offensive to take 'double turn' while alternating activating units to fight with. Let's say your opponent has a unit within engagement range of two of your units. You can attack first with one of your units, then activate counter offensive to attack with your second unit without giving your opponent to react to that first set of attacks from unit 1. So, you can use the strat to turn a duel into a 2-on-1.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 17:59:25


 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





 skchsan wrote:

Alternatively, you can also use counter offensive to take 'double turn' while alternating activating units to fight with. Let's say your opponent has a unit within engagement range of two of your units. You can attack first with one of your units, then activate counter offensive to attack with your second unit without giving your opponent to react to that first set of attacks from unit 1. So, you can use the strat to turn a duel into a 2-on-1.


This cannot be done. The stratagem is used after an enemy unit fights.
   
Made in us
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Rihgu wrote:
 skchsan wrote:

Alternatively, you can also use counter offensive to take 'double turn' while alternating activating units to fight with. Let's say your opponent has a unit within engagement range of two of your units. You can attack first with one of your units, then activate counter offensive to attack with your second unit without giving your opponent to react to that first set of attacks from unit 1. So, you can use the strat to turn a duel into a 2-on-1.


This cannot be done. The stratagem is used after an enemy unit fights.
Yes it does.
Counter-Offensive
Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

At any point in a fight phase, after the first charging unit has fought, the stratagem can be used on any unit that is eligible to fight to fight next. This includes when all of the charging units have fought and you are now taking turns activating eligible units to fight with.

Why would you spend 2 CP's to make it your turn to fight when it's already your turn to fight?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 18:31:02


 
   
Made in us
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Vanished Completely

Skchsan,
At this point I have to wonder how you think creating a third completely irrelevant option, that ignores all rules and logic, would do that?
If you read through this and other threads - We all agree on what the intention of this Rule is, all I have been doing is pointing out how... as written... it fails!

Why are you acting as if Game Workshop has written a flawless Rule here?
Multiple people have brought up multiple problems with Counter-Offensive - It clearly is a badly written Rule!
And they didn't even fix it when a Frequently Asked Question specifically addressed it... typical Game Workshop!


My advise at the very start still stands - if you want to use Counter-Offensive then you need to discuss it with your opponent.
No one is going to demand it be followed 'as written' for that would be useless, but they might not like it being used on Fight Last Units

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 18:43:48


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Regardless of side spats, the actual rules questions have been addressed and are clear, whether people like the wording or not.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 skchsan wrote:
Counter-Offensive
Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

At any point in a fight phase, after the first charging unit has fought, the stratagem can be used on any unit that is eligible to fight to fight next. This includes when all of the charging units have fought and you are now taking turns activating eligible units to fight with.

Why would you spend 2 CP's to make it your turn to fight when it's already your turn to fight?


Re-read the quote. It can be used after an ENEMY unit fights. If only your own units have fought, you cannot use it.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in us
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 Octopoid wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Counter-Offensive
Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

At any point in a fight phase, after the first charging unit has fought, the stratagem can be used on any unit that is eligible to fight to fight next. This includes when all of the charging units have fought and you are now taking turns activating eligible units to fight with.

Why would you spend 2 CP's to make it your turn to fight when it's already your turn to fight?


Re-read the quote. It can be used after an ENEMY unit fights. If only your own units have fought, you cannot use it.
Emphasis mine.

The stratagem does not restrict it to be played immediately after an enemy unit fights, RAW. As long as one enemy unit has fought in this fight phase, the stratagem can be played at any time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 18:58:03


 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 skchsan wrote:
 Octopoid wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Counter-Offensive
Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

At any point in a fight phase, after the first charging unit has fought, the stratagem can be used on any unit that is eligible to fight to fight next. This includes when all of the charging units have fought and you are now taking turns activating eligible units to fight with.

Why would you spend 2 CP's to make it your turn to fight when it's already your turn to fight?


Re-read the quote. It can be used after an ENEMY unit fights. If only your own units have fought, you cannot use it.
Emphasis mine.

The stratagem does not restrict it to be played immediately after an enemy unit fights, RAW. As long as one enemy unit has fought in this fight phase, the stratagem can be played at any time.


Sure, whatever. I tried.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Octopoid wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
 Octopoid wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Counter-Offensive
Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

At any point in a fight phase, after the first charging unit has fought, the stratagem can be used on any unit that is eligible to fight to fight next. This includes when all of the charging units have fought and you are now taking turns activating eligible units to fight with.

Why would you spend 2 CP's to make it your turn to fight when it's already your turn to fight?


Re-read the quote. It can be used after an ENEMY unit fights. If only your own units have fought, you cannot use it.
Emphasis mine.

The stratagem does not restrict it to be played immediately after an enemy unit fights, RAW. As long as one enemy unit has fought in this fight phase, the stratagem can be played at any time.


Sure, whatever. I tried.


Given that we've been talking about it after an enemy has charged you, and he had said "after the first charging unit has fought", he had already covered that. He's also right about getting to use it at any time in the fight phase after the first charging (enemy) unit has fought. Counter offensive states "Use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn". It does not say "use this stratagem after an enemy unit has fought." So, any time after that first attack, it can be used...as he pointed out, you can use it after one of your units goes so that you can have 2 units attack before he gets to attack with another unit.
   
Made in us
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Kansas, United States

I must have misunderstood. I apologize and retract my objections.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in us
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Just to clarify, these side bars are presented to highlight the fact that counter offensive is not as one-dimensional as it's being made out to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JinxDragon wrote:
Skchsan,
At this point I have to wonder how you think creating a third completely irrelevant option, that ignores all rules and logic, would do that?
If you read through this and other threads - We all agree on what the intention of this Rule is, all I have been doing is pointing out how... as written... it fails!

Why are you acting as if Game Workshop has written a flawless Rule here?
Multiple people have brought up multiple problems with Counter-Offensive - It clearly is a badly written Rule!
And they didn't even fix it when a Frequently Asked Question specifically addressed it... typical Game Workshop!
I'm not saying the rule as written isn't flawless or flawed. I'm merely rebutting against the claims that counter offensive doesn't do anything, or at least, it doesn't do what it looks like it can do.

Sure, the language used in the rules could afford some revision, but I think that applies to anything that's written out. But I do stand on the point that this rule as written isn't vague or ambiguous enough to a point where a valid, sound conclusion cannot be derived from.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 20:08:55


 
   
 
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