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Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:


Kasrkin did have rules specific to their models and lost them. People got by with "counts as" for some time, but now Scions exist and the generic catch-all of the "Stormtrooper" is gone.

So all you are mad about is the unit that hasn't had rules for ten years, still doesn't have rules. Ok.

Spoiler:

You want to argue for Tanith? I'll back you on that. Their camo-cloaks are "part of their culture and background"...but also would have an in-game effect.

So only things that give units in-game benefits should be allowed as indicators of the regiment? If building, painting, and army customisation wasn't a huge part of the hobby that would make sense, but they are so it doesn't.

Spoiler:

Funny how you ignored the part on the page across from that:
If serving together for extended durations, attached units tend to adopt their foster-regiment's uniform and unit markings. This not only helps to avoid friendly-fire incidents, but also aids in promoting comradeship with the soldiers they will be fighting and dying alongside.
[spoiler]
That's out of context. The paragraph is about support companies such as heavy weapon platoons or armour platoons. So not a Mordian infantry regiment suddenly changing its uniform to Catachan because they server together for a couple of months.

[spoiler]

What you seem to be either wilfully ignoring or just outright failing to grasp?

Armies need a distinctive visual language. Guard do not have that. That is literally the whole premise behind what I've proposed time and time again.

You can tell if someone is running Scions currently. Why? Because they have a distinctive look to them.
You cannot tell if someone is running Conscripts, Infantry Squads, or Veterans unless they actively make an effort to differentiate things. And you people want individual regiments represented? Do you not understand how ridiculous this is?

The simplest and most effective way to get this across, in the end, is by actively differentiating units. Look at a DKoK force. One can identify the different units easily. Grenadiers have more plating, cabling to their hellguns, and the 'skull' faceplate attached to their masks while the 'standard' Korpsman is just rocking a lasgun, flak armour, and a no-frills gasmask.

Or, and hear me out here, paint your models. GW literally has examples of Cadian Whiteshield Conscripts with markings to show their role.

Spoiler:

You do know that Officio Prefectus isn't just the Commissars, right?
And that nothing stops these things from being dual kits, right? Or from there being rules allowing for those units to be given a different keyword based upon the <Regiment> of your Warlord?
Oh yeah, and not everyone has Conscripts or Commissars. Commissars were, prior to the Cruddacing, supposed to be a rare sight in Cadian forces with their officers instead being trained by the Schola Psykana to know what to look for in Sanctioned Psykers.
Of course, they also didn't have a PDF--instead having the Interior Guard, full-fledged Guard Regiments that rotated on-world, but that's a whole other story.

Prior to the "Cruddacing"? You mean like in the early 2000's when the Ghosts series and a bunch of other books were written that clearly had Commissars attached to regiments as a standard? Sure the Prefectus isn't just Commissars, it has MP's as well who are not frontline troops and therefore will not be seen in the 40k AM army list. If you want to take an army of MP's go ahead nobody is stopping you.

Spoiler:

Sure there can be.

Flak Jackets/Vests: 6+ save.
Flak Armour: 5+ save.

So some AM units will have as much protection as Orks and Cultists. Sure, Ok. I'm sure problems with AM will be solved by adding more things that nobody will take.

Spoiler:

I'd suggest you go pop a read of "Legion" by Dan Abnett, because the Lucifer Blacks are definitely "mentioned". They even made it into the Beast saga post-Heresy.

The Lucifer Blacks were not a specialist regiment nor were they Solar Auxilia. The Gene-Five-Two-Chiliad was also just a regiment that so happened to use genetic manipulation to make its soldiers strong.

Spoiler:

The infantry regiments of Cadia are known as Shock Troops...

The infantry regiments of Catachan...


I can go on if you want. Hell even the Vostroyan lore doesn't preclude there being other regiments, it's just mentioned that it's "seen as an honor to serve in the tank crews and Firstborn infantry regiments".

Again, you've taken the Vostroyan passage out of context. The entire reason the regiments are called Firstborn is that they are made up of firstborn children as punishment for failing to support the Imperium during the Heresy. The population is fine with this as it is seen as a repayment of their sins and a great honour. All Vostroyan soldiers are still first born children.
As for the rest, all you need to do is go to the GW webstore and the names on the boxes of the miniatures are "Cadian Shock Troops", "Catachan Jungle Fighters" and "Steel Legion Squad". The regiments might not all be Infantray regiments but they are still Shock Troops or Jungle Fighters.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

If we are wishlisting I would chip in with the squad needs to be stronger and I don't like the bare bones fielding of squads - that is something Conscripts should be for.

My squad mix would be...
No change to guardsman stats.
Change to orders to make them faster and smoother - e.g. first rank fire, second rank fire now has the lasguns auto hit from weight of fire rather than doubling shots

Troops
Frags
Infantry Squad 65 points
1 Sarge - Lasgun or Las pistol and choice or close combat weapon (standard points)
9 Guardsmen
-1 may be a marksman and exchange his lasgun for a sniper rifle (free)
-1 may be a vox operator and carry a vox (free)
-1 may be a gunner and carry a special weapon or heavy stubber (free)
A heavy weapons team may be added to the squad for 10 points + cost of weapon (this takes the squad to 12 men and the limit of a Chimera)

Veteran Squad 65 points
Frag and Krak
Sarge - may carry pistol and CC weapon or lasgun, boltgun, shotgun or autogun.
4 veterans with lasgun, shotgun or autogun
Up to 5 veterans may be added for 5 points each
-1 may be a specialist and exchange his lasgun for a sniper rifle or demolition charge and lasgun/laspistol (free) or heavy flamer (10 points)
-1 may be a vox operator and carry a vox (free)
-3 may be a gunner and carry a special weapon or heavy stubber (Flamer, Grenade launcher, heavy stubber free, plasma and melta +5 points)
A heavy weapons team may be added to the squad for 13 points + cost of weapon (this takes the squad to 12 men and the limit of a Chimera)

Conscripts Squad 100 points
Frags
Training Sarge (regular Sarge) - Las pistol and choice or close combat weapon (standard points)
19 Conscripts
Up to 10 conscripts may be added at 4 points each

Elites
Frags
Special Weapons Squad 40 points
3 Guardsmen
3 Guardsmen with special weapons or Heavy stubbers

Fast Attack
Recon squad 40 points
Frag and krak
1 sarge - Lasgun or Las pistol and choice or close combat weapon (standard points)
2 guardsmen (spotters)
-1 may be a vox operator and carry a vox (free)
3 guardsmen (specialists) with sniper rifles or demolition charges and lasguns/las pistols
Recon:- May set up a minimum of 12" from enemy models after deployment has finished.

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons squad 20 points
Frag
3 heavy weapons teams with heavy weapon (at normal costs)
Dig in - A heavy Weapons squad that has not moved this game was dug in before the battle started and until it moves counts as being in light cover
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Kanluwen wrote:


Armies need a distinctive visual language. Guard do not have that. That is literally the whole premise behind what I've proposed time and time again.

You can tell if someone is running Scions currently. Why? Because they have a distinctive look to them.
You cannot tell if someone is running Conscripts, Infantry Squads, or Veterans unless they actively make an effort to differentiate things. And you people want individual regiments represented? Do you not understand how ridiculous this is?

The simplest and most effective way to get this across, in the end, is by actively differentiating units. Look at a DKoK force. One can identify the different units easily. Grenadiers have more plating, cabling to their hellguns, and the 'skull' faceplate attached to their masks while the 'standard' Korpsman is just rocking a lasgun, flak armour, and a no-frills gasmask.

Nah. My version would have it like this:
"I see greatcoats and autoguns, I guess they're using Conscripts! That probably means Valhallans!"
"I see armoured torsos, shoulderpads, and lasguns. I guess they have plain old Infantry Squads! That probably means Cadians!"
"I see fancy armor and uniforms...uhoh, that's Prefectus territory! Probably Mordians!"
[


This. A thousand times this.

Building guard infantry lists is so soul crushingly boring under the current paradigm. You've got one kit worth of models for almost everything except Ogryn. Said kit can do three different things, confusing your opponent and yourself, and you have functionally 3 regular infantry units spread to a bunch of data sheets and 3 surviving auxillia options. I don't even count scions, as you loose a ton unless you take them in their own detachemnt. They're functionally their own armies at this point, and more power to the people who like that army, but they aren't guard.

Giving guard visually and mechanically distinct infantry units to provide some actually variety to the army would be a godsend. Abandon the modern idea that every unit has to fit into every regiment, give us interesting, distinct options that you can use for your regiment if they fit. Or you want to be a soulless minmaxer, I don't judge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 20:53:34


 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

You've been around long enough to know a few of the things I would have done, including going out of my way to try to develop "iconic units" for the big Regiments.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

That doesn't answer my question though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

That doesn't answer my question though.

Oh, should I dip into an alternate universe then where they kept Kasrkin as a unit?

Cool! Here's what I got from my multiversal trek:
They are a Regimental keyworded unit, with no alternate deployment methods like Scions have, Vox-Casters, and a Troop choice exclusive to Cadians. Oh yeah and they have access to Heavy Stubbers and Heavy Flamers, like the DKoK Grenadiers do!


Here on Earth Prime though, who knows what they would be, other than Cadian keyworded...which alone is a huge difference to Scions. If one goes and compares them to the DKoK Grenadiers? You can see what likely would have been the role of Kasrkin.

But no matter what, the "unique rules for Kasrkin" were that they were a Cadian Stormtrooper unit minus the alternate deployment methods and a Troops choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 23:22:03


 
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

 Kanluwen wrote:

Is this a serious question?

Yes, I haven't played since 4th Ed when I was running Preatorians; never used stormtroopers back then, but the new Stormtroopers seem to me like they have everything the old ones had and a bunch extra. What I remember is stormtroopers being an option that every regiment could draw upon, but which only the Cadians had dedicated models to represent their version. (If you wanted Catachan Stormtroopers, you kitbashed the infantry box with converted Hot-Shot lasguns using Voxcaster backpacks to make the power cells for example; I think that may have been an official White Dwarf conversion even.)

To me, the Scions re-brand seems like one of GW's better moves while I was away; so far as I could tell all they did was flesh out and add things rules and lore wise. 4th edition era lore mentioned that most stormtroopers were attached in to other armies usually, but then spent most of it's time focusing on Catachan Devils and Cadian Kasrkins, who were described even at the time as being kinda the exception to the normal stormtroopers. Hence I asked.


Kasrkin, when first introduced, were a Troop choice in the Cadian Shock Army list from the Eye of Terror book. They were Stormtroopers minus the whole "Covert Operations" bend. No Deep Strike or Infiltrate, whole squad rocked Hellguns with Sgt optionally being able to take a Hellpistol+ccw instead of Hellgun if you wanted, a vox-caster on a model, and two Kasrkin could take flamers, grenade launchers, meltaguns, or plasma guns while the whole squad could get Melta-Bombs and could grab a Chimera as a Dedicated Transport.


So, right now you can do all of that less the melta-bombs and the rifle on the Sgt (I think everyone would like rifle on Sgt option back, I'm with you there.) You gain deepstrike, but you don't have to use it if you don't want to.


Cut to the Doctrines book!
Cadians had the Grenadiers and Storm Trooper Squads doctrines, allowing for you to take 3x units of Storm Troopers as Troop choices with no DS/Infiltrate and another 3x units of Storm Troopers as Elite choices with the DS/Infiltrate options. Also the start of the "no model, no rules" era as the Storm Trooper Squads lost "hellguns on sergeants" options that early.


You can take as many as you want as troops now though? You haven't lost this, just every other guard army has gained it. Yeah, they don't benefit from your Cadian doctrine if you take them in that detachment, but they're still BS3 AP-2 4+SV troops.




If you don't feel like your Kasrkins are sufficiently supported, you can sell them for a lot of money on ebay, plenty of us would love to run them with the Scions/Stormtrooper rules.

Not enough money to make me want to let go of some my beloved models to some goons on eBay who are just gonna use them as proxies for Scions because they're cheapskates.


Kasrkins are selling for $15CDN a model on ebay. Scions sell for $10CDN per model new. People buying Kasrkins aren't using cheap proxies for scions, they're paying a 50% premium to use the old stormtrooper models they love with the new stormtrooper rules.



Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Oh, should I dip into an alternate universe then where they kept Kasrkin as a unit?

Cool! Here's what I got from my multiversal trek:
They are a Regimental keyworded unit, with no alternate deployment methods like Scions have, Vox-Casters, and a Troop choice exclusive to Cadians. Oh yeah and they have access to Heavy Stubbers and Heavy Flamers, like the DKoK Grenadiers do!


Here on Earth Prime though, who knows what they would be, other than Cadian keyworded...which alone is a huge difference to Scions. If one goes and compares them to the DKoK Grenadiers? You can see what likely would have been the role of Kasrkin.

But no matter what, the "unique rules for Kasrkin" were that they were a Cadian Stormtrooper unit minus the alternate deployment methods and a Troops choice.

So they were just worse Stormtroopers. Ok. And despite you complaining consistently about Kasrkin not having rules, you've not thought of anything you would do to add them back into the AM list.

Let's say you keep the Scion profile and just give them access to the Cadian Reg Doc. That means your Kasrkin would be getting re-rolls of 1 to hit if they didn't move and re-roll all failed hits if they didn't move and were given the "Take Aim" order. So firstly you've given them one of the best doctrines and if you kept them as a troops choice there would never be any reason to take Guardsmen ever again because they are objectively inferior. Good job you've invalidated Guardsmen and made Cadians the only faction with insanely powerful infantry.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

That doesn't answer my question though.

Oh, should I dip into an alternate universe then where they kept Kasrkin as a unit?

Cool! Here's what I got from my multiversal trek:
They are a Regimental keyworded unit, with no alternate deployment methods like Scions have, Vox-Casters, and a Troop choice exclusive to Cadians. Oh yeah and they have access to Heavy Stubbers and Heavy Flamers, like the DKoK Grenadiers do!


Here on Earth Prime though, who knows what they would be, other than Cadian keyworded...which alone is a huge difference to Scions. If one goes and compares them to the DKoK Grenadiers? You can see what likely would have been the role of Kasrkin.

But no matter what, the "unique rules for Kasrkin" were that they were a Cadian Stormtrooper unit minus the alternate deployment methods and a Troops choice.

Sorry but that's a LOL worthy thing to complain about. Scions as they are just work 100% great as a substitute (like you'd rather have a Heavy Stubber than the Volley Hotshot for a unit wanting to be up close). I'm sorry you can't live with that?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

For me, it's more the Regiment thing than anything else. I've made that abundantly clear.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




If the lack of default visual differentiation between Infantry Squads and Veterans is a dire existential problem, surely it's also a problem for Dominions/Celestians, Trueborn/Bloodbrides/Haemoxytes, Vanguard Veterans/Veteran Intercessors, Paladins/Purifiers, etc?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
For me, it's more the Regiment thing than anything else. I've made that abundantly clear.

But how much does that matter? Consider the fact that any extra Officers you'd want would tag along with them for Orders, so the Scion officer would be purchased regardless. The Cadian relic is honestly kinda bad and entirely matchup dependent. The most I see really is their specific Warlord Trait.

I don't see Keyword really being relevant nor the rules.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

It matters about as much as anything does when it comes to player preferences and theme.

It's a big reason why I've argued for a "Grenadier" unit in the past for Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RevlidRas wrote:
If the lack of default visual differentiation between Infantry Squads and Veterans is a dire existential problem, surely it's also a problem for Dominions/Celestians, Trueborn/Bloodbrides/Haemoxytes, Vanguard Veterans/Veteran Intercessors, Paladins/Purifiers, etc?

Dominions/Celestians actually have their own identifying helmets in the kit. You know that right?
Vanguard Veterans compared to Assault Marines have very different loadout possibilities as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 00:55:43


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Gert wrote:

So they were just worse Stormtroopers. Ok. And despite you complaining consistently about Kasrkin not having rules, you've not thought of anything you would do to add them back into the AM list.

Let's say you keep the Scion profile and just give them access to the Cadian Reg Doc. That means your Kasrkin would be getting re-rolls of 1 to hit if they didn't move and re-roll all failed hits if they didn't move and were given the "Take Aim" order. So firstly you've given them one of the best doctrines and if you kept them as a troops choice there would never be any reason to take Guardsmen ever again because they are objectively inferior. Good job you've invalidated Guardsmen and made Cadians the only faction with insanely powerful infantry.


Yes, because everyone knows that all units cost the same amount of points, this totally makes sense.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

That doesn't answer my question though.




This is literally the only time Kasrkins had their own rules. They were basically the same as the 3rd or 3.5 edition codex Stormtroopers. I don’t understand that guys point.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Haven't read the full Kanluwen exchange, but yeah. Seems like kasarkin are basically just storm troopers with a meltabomb option.

I do think there's some merit to the point that not every army needs to have an unusual gimmick. "Vanilla" guard should be as fun and viable as catachans or cadians. That said, the thing that I tend to like about guard in novels is the quirks they carry from their homeworld. It might be nice to have some generic datasheets to help represent feudal worlders with prim weapons and plate armor, mounted units including variants for those worlds that ride weird mounts like flying birds or chonky armored beasts or what have you. Maybe a regiment trait that lets your sergeants be equipped with off-brand exo armor. That sort of thing. The majority of the guard's forces should be copy-pasted to make supplying them easy, but you really don't get the sheer diversity of humanity from their current rules.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
Haven't read the full Kanluwen exchange, but yeah. Seems like kasarkin are basically just storm troopers with a meltabomb option.

I do think there's some merit to the point that not every army needs to have an unusual gimmick. "Vanilla" guard should be as fun and viable as catachans or cadians. That said, the thing that I tend to like about guard in novels is the quirks they carry from their homeworld. It might be nice to have some generic datasheets to help represent feudal worlders with prim weapons and plate armor, mounted units including variants for those worlds that ride weird mounts like flying birds or chonky armored beasts or what have you. Maybe a regiment trait that lets your sergeants be equipped with off-brand exo armor. That sort of thing. The majority of the guard's forces should be copy-pasted to make supplying them easy, but you really don't get the sheer diversity of humanity from their current rules.


Feudal World troops would be very easy to implement. GW just have to bring back laspistols and chainswords as options for Infantry Squads, a player could then play as either Catachan then saying "this is my dudes but with Catachan rules, or they could use the custom regiment traits Lord's Approval and Slum Fighters. As for cavalry, just bring back Rough Riders. Then you could just proxy the riders with xeno-mounts.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
mr_stibbons wrote:


Yes, because everyone knows that all units cost the same amount of points, this totally makes sense.


Scions are 10pts cheaper than an infantry squad base. Giving them access to the Cadian doctrine makes them an objectively better troops choice because they have Hotshot Lasguns, Carapace Armour and better BS, even if you take away the Drop Troop ability they're still objectively better.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
mr_stibbons wrote:


Yes, because everyone knows that all units cost the same amount of points, this totally makes sense.


Scions are 10pts cheaper than an infantry squad base. Giving them access to the Cadian doctrine makes them an objectively better troops choice because they have Hotshot Lasguns, Carapace Armour and better BS, even if you take away the Drop Troop ability they're still objectively better.


If there was a generic Grenadiers squad with no Militarum Tempestus keyword and <Regiment> instead of <Tempestus Regiment>. If they lost Aerial Drop and Infantry Squads went back down to 50 points. That’d be alright.

The Grenadiers would lose all access to the Militarum Tempestus stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and their own doctrines. So they loss a lot to just get an AM regiment doctrine.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Except they don't lose strategems because they get regular AM ones and basic troop units don't get Warlord traits or relics. For 5pts less I'm getting half the men with double the firepower. Getting access to the doctrines would make a Scion type unit so much better.
For example:
<Steel Legion> Grenadiers would gain Industrial Efficiency meaning their rapid fire weapons get the effect of rapid fire at 18" rather than 12". This is far superior to Storm Troopers where you have the chance of an extra shot in half range if you get a 6+ to hit.
   
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Right behind you.

Jarms48 wrote:

Spoiler:


This is literally the only time Kasrkins had their own rules. They were basically the same as the 3rd or 3.5 edition codex Stormtroopers. I don’t understand that guys point.

That they had rules to lose was the point, to be honest.

I made an initial off-the-cuff comment about how Kasrkin have no purpose aside from being "pretend Scions" now in reply to comments made that implied new units or attempts to make a visually distinctive Guard roster would "invalidate" people's armies. It's why I also made a comment about how Valhallans never had "special rules for their models"--meaning rules that actually were specific to the Valhallan Ice Warrior models, not regimental traits/doctrines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Haven't read the full Kanluwen exchange, but yeah. Seems like kasarkin are basically just storm troopers with a meltabomb option.

Correct, other than also being Troops and specific to the Cadian army list from Eye of Terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jarms48 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
mr_stibbons wrote:


Yes, because everyone knows that all units cost the same amount of points, this totally makes sense.


Scions are 10pts cheaper than an infantry squad base. Giving them access to the Cadian doctrine makes them an objectively better troops choice because they have Hotshot Lasguns, Carapace Armour and better BS, even if you take away the Drop Troop ability they're still objectively better.


If there was a generic Grenadiers squad with no Militarum Tempestus keyword and <Regiment> instead of <Tempestus Regiment>. If they lost Aerial Drop and Infantry Squads went back down to 50 points. That’d be alright.

The Grenadiers would lose all access to the Militarum Tempestus stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and their own doctrines. So they loss a lot to just get an AM regiment doctrine.

Amusingly enough, GW has given us the perfect way to solve things by virtue of them "bringing back" hotshot lasguns.

Hellguns for Grenadiers vs Hotshot Lasguns for Militarum Tempestus. Hellguns being an assault-classed profile and not simply "lasguns" opens some design space up for what Grenadiers can be that doesn't just make them Scions by another name.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/07 12:26:02


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Except they don't lose strategems because they get regular AM ones and basic troop units don't get Warlord traits or relics. For 5pts less I'm getting half the men with double the firepower. Getting access to the doctrines would make a Scion type unit so much better.
For example:
<Steel Legion> Grenadiers would gain Industrial Efficiency meaning their rapid fire weapons get the effect of rapid fire at 18" rather than 12". This is far superior to Storm Troopers where you have the chance of an extra shot in half range if you get a 6+ to hit.


They lose all of the Tempestus stratagems which are far better than the AM ones. Scions get both MT and AM stratagems if you weren’t aware. Also they lose the Tempestus WL traits like Keys to the Armoury for that awesome reroll 1 bubble.

Sure, the steel legion one (as well as disciplined shooters) are the most extreme ones but they lose a lot to get that. Also with 50 point infantry squads again you’re missing the opportunity cost of essentially getting double the models for 5 points more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 12:46:19


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanu, what exactly in terms of unique rules did Kasrkin really have?

It's hard to say what they would have now, but the big thing is simply they would be "Cadian" keyworded units rather than "Militarum Tempestus".

You've been around long enough to know a few of the things I would have done, including going out of my way to try to develop "iconic units" for the big Regiments.


If bringing them back they would clearly be elites (they are literally the elitesof Cadia) and not have the drop troops rule. Give the sarge a melta bomb if you like. What else would change about them?

I like the idea of having a hellgun (assault rather than rapid fire) instead of hotshot, would fit with not having drop troops ability (have to hoof it instead).
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Scions are the elites of the Guard, yet a Troops choice...

If bringing Kasrkin back? They would fit as a Cadian specific unit.
Catachans could nab themselves the Catachan Devils(a similar concept of elite troopers exemplifying their chosen ideals), Armageddon the Ork Hunters, etc.

If we just want to bring the concept of "regimental, heavy armored troops" in--then we just make Grenadiers an option as Troops.

Also, obligatory "every sergeant/officer type needs to be able to carry a lasgun".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 13:29:50


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






They're a troop's choice because Scions are technically a different army to standard AM. Legacy of them being their own codex before the amalgamation of 8th Ed.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Nope. Doesn't fly.

Scions were Elite choices (and in Platoons no less!) in C: AM 6/7E.
Squads as Troops in C: MT

They could have been left as Elites minus the Platoon bit, seeing as how we have alternate Detachments that let you take an HQ and Elites.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 14:00:50


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

It wouldn't make much sense for Kasrkin to be Troops if Veterans are Elites.

I don't think we need a specific datasheet for Kasrkin, we just need more customisable Veterans. Veterans with carapace armour and hotshot guns is essentially Kasrkin and you've done it without shunning other regiments.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




what if certain regiments had access to certain slot abilities?

for cadians, they're Scions count as troops, but for say, Catachans or Vostoyans, they are elite slots. Then again, Catachans can get veteran squads as troops, and Vostoyans get command squads as troops, etc.?
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
It wouldn't make much sense for Kasrkin to be Troops if Veterans are Elites.

Veterans as Elite is garbage anyways. Veterans as a unit concept is garbage.

I don't think we need a specific datasheet for Kasrkin, we just need more customisable Veterans. Veterans with carapace armour and hotshot guns is essentially Kasrkin and you've done it without shunning other regiments.

But you SHOULD be shunning other regiments. Not every regiment fields a Kasrkin/Grenadier equivalent. The ones we knew about were Cadians, Death Korps, and the Terrax Guard. Then you have the full on carapace armored regiments like the Harakoni Warhawks, Vostroyan Firstborn, and the Terrax Guard crossed over into this category as well.

Kasrkin as Troops works if one has followed the lore of Kasrkin. Each of the Kasrs had its own full on regiments of Kasrkin(we're talking heavy weapons operators, special weapons teams, the works), which could be deployed en masse during things like the Black Crusades. One full Regiment stayed at the Kasr as an honor guard for the High Command of that Kasr, the rest would be broken up when new regiments were founded from those Kasrs as honor guard/shock elements for the regimental command structures.
   
 
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