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 footfoe wrote:
Yeah I dont get you OP.

You're so much of perfectionist that you spend 3 hours in each model. But not so much of a perfectionist, that you're perfectly fine with showing up to a game with mostly grey models? I think your slow pace is an exaggeration, or your priorities are totally incoherent.

Your limited time excuses are invalid, as you clearly have time to play games. Use that time. You can keep up the social contact by bringing your brushes to the FLGS.

Then after that... its just 10 points. Rarely will that be the deciding factor. And if is.. then your opponent earned it by putting in effort that you didn't put in.

I don't like to play unpainted units, but I have a few. None of which are grey - most of which are 'in progress'. Of the three games I have played this year, i'd say around 60-70% of what was on my side of the table was painted, the rest at the very least zenithally undercoated if not in base coat stages.

Didn't realise I had to fully explain myself but hopefully that adequately puts your condescending comments to bed.

I say yea.

If you lose the game because of that score, you can console yourself that you 'won' on skill/list building. You can still play other people with unpainted/half painted armies at no penalty.

It's a painting hobby AND a wargame. The two should not be mutually exclusive.

Note that 'wargame' (or to be specific, 'tabletop miniatures wargame') in a lot of people's minds, includes painted minis. There are plenty of people who just paint - they might well be the majority. But tabletop miniatures wargaming is about spectacle. Someone rolling up to the table with unpainted minis is taking away from the experience.

Why should I start a game at a 10 POINT disadvantage because my OP has more free time than me? Or bought a pre-painted army? or paid a commissioner to do it for them?

The question you should be asking is why someone should be playing your half-painted army. That 10 points is an incentive for him more than a punishment for you. Painted minis is the standard. Standard expectations are NOT gatekeeping. As a social hobby, both players have some responsibility for the enjoyment of the hobby. You bringing a fully painted army makes the experience better for your opponent.

Ultimately you taking 4-5 hours per mini is a decision you made and you should be OK with the consequences of that. I've done much the same, and finally I broke down and speedpainted an army just for tournament play rather than taking 2-3 years to get to that level with my regular army.

Just so we’re all clear I totally respect everybody’s opinion on the rule, this was just a debate I got into within my own hobby circle and thought it was an interesting topic of discussion as we couldn’t agree on it either haha

Rereading my original post I undershot it might come across a bit aggressive

Outside a GW store or tourney?
As far as winning the game? I vote nay.
Paint, or don't, as pleases you.

Tournament wise? I dont give a crap what you do there.

In our AoS map based conquest campaign we do have a painted unit bonus though.
We implemented a scars system similar to the Crusade one. You can spend pts buy off scars.
If your unit is painted (any quality beyond primer) you can roll a dice. 5+ it heals a scar for free.

I feel that if I made an effort to go to a tournament I would put a lot of effort into the presentation of my army and seeing the paint schemes and stylings of other peoples armies would be at least 50% of the fun of attending such an event. For me.

So it should be down to the tournament rules what paint standards required to enter

But having a tournament that gives points for painting or deductions for not painting seems like a terrible idea as it’s not a reflection of the competition. It’s like giving a goal to the football team that the ref thinks has the nicest kit

I think its fine, I guess. On some level I like that it slows down the desire to chase the meta. Personally I just don't care. Success and failure is kind of a personal matter and if I "won" by 6 points only to "lose" when painting is added in... probably really enjoyed the game regardless and not going to feel to bad losing with the handicap. I'm likely going to feel "beat" when I "win" by the same margin.

It makes some people feel better about the funbucks they earned and other people take their funbucks far too seriously. I'm not going to get upset about it either way.

For those who are anti painting.

Once you start playing with fully painted models. You wont want to play with anything else. Paint your damn models. Learn to dry brush. It is very easy.

oh, it's this dumb thread again.

Friendly pick up games should never count.

Not everyone is a painter or even likes painting, i know some that loves building, and others just wants to collect, or even just play. Also newer players shouldn't be told they are at a disadvantage just b.c they want to play and learn a new game, they already have a hard enough time as it is, don't make it worst.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For those who are anti painting.

Once you start playing with fully painted models. You wont want to play with anything else. Paint your damn models. Learn to dry brush. It is very easy.

Tell you what, when you buy my minis for me, when you paint them for me, when you have the time and money to put in for me, THEN you get to tell me how to play.

Damn, makes me want to stop painting just to spite you. I've played with both, and I'm happy with either.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For those who are anti painting.

Once you start playing with fully painted models. You wont want to play with anything else. Paint your damn models. Learn to dry brush. It is very easy.

Been doing this for near on 35 years now and I can tell you your claim is not true for me.

Sure, I love fully painted stuff. And I've got plenty of it....
But MY hobby is playing.
Painting it all is just something I do at my own leisure.
Play 1st, everything else 2nd.

 John Prins wrote:


The question you should be asking is why someone should be playing your half-painted army. That 10 points is an incentive for him more than a punishment for you. Painted minis is the standard. Standard expectations are NOT gatekeeping. As a social hobby, both players have some responsibility for the enjoyment of the hobby. You bringing a fully painted army makes the experience better for your opponent.

Ultimately you taking 4-5 hours per mini is a decision you made and you should be OK with the consequences of that. I've done much the same, and finally I broke down and speedpainted an army just for tournament play rather than taking 2-3 years to get to that level with my regular army.

But painted minis are not the standard. They come unpainted. They can be a standard to people who like painted models, or to people who like painting. To someone who is only interested in gaming they are not something standard. And it very much is gate keeping. If you inform someone that probably will play one edition that, he will not only have to wait for a few months to have his army, but then have to spend even more money and time painting them. And then people with painted armies may just claim bs 10pts, because they didn't do edge high lights on this one stone on the base or because they decided to colour code their bases, but this suddenly makes the whole army unpainted, because only scenic bases count as fully painted. You are very much gate keeping people, specialy in a hobby which is already expansive enough to not come with add extre costs. Ah and as enjoyment of the hobby being the responsibility of both players, good luck with that, because as soon as people don't play against a friend, they will no longer care.

The rule is as much as incentive to paint, as not speaking and learning polish, or being catholic was in XIXth century here.

It's as much gate keeping as any other rule in the book.

Tell you what, when you buy my minis for me, when you paint them for me, when you have the time and money to put in for me, THEN you get to tell me how to play.

Okay, so since I bought and painted my minis I get to claim they have 2+ BS and their guns are Assault 4, S10, Ap -3, D2?
You can tell me how to play when you buy my minis for me, I guess.

Rihgu wrote:
It's as much gate keeping as any other rule in the book.

Tell you what, when you buy my minis for me, when you paint them for me, when you have the time and money to put in for me, THEN you get to tell me how to play.

Okay, so since I bought and painted my minis I get to claim they have 2+ BS and their guns are Assault 4, S10, Ap -3, D2?
You can tell me how to play when you buy my minis for me, I guess.

As long as I'm not forced to play a game with you, that's fine by me.

Let's not drag the social construct of "agreeing on a ruleset" into this. We're discussing aspects of the hobby, and whether or not they're mandatory. If you don't want to engage with that point, no point in me engaging with you at all.

 Octopoid wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
It's as much gate keeping as any other rule in the book.

Tell you what, when you buy my minis for me, when you paint them for me, when you have the time and money to put in for me, THEN you get to tell me how to play.

Okay, so since I bought and painted my minis I get to claim they have 2+ BS and their guns are Assault 4, S10, Ap -3, D2?
You can tell me how to play when you buy my minis for me, I guess.

As long as I'm not forced to play a game with you, that's fine by me.

Let's not drag the social construct of "agreeing on a ruleset" into this. We're discussing aspects of the hobby, and whether or not they're mandatory. If you don't want to engage with that point, no point in me engaging with you at all.

We are quite literally talking about agreeing on a ruleset here. The rules says a painted army gets 10 points. Anything else is a houserule. It is mandatory to get 10 points for having a painted army.

I don't understand why people don't get there are 3 distinct hobbies in this "hobby": building models, painting models and wargaming.

Some people love the building and painting part of the hobby but hate the actual game, should they be forced to play the game because it's a "part of the hobby"?

Some people love playing the wargames but have never been one for building and painting, why should they be forced to do that? Years ago, back in school, we used to play paper-hammer during lunch breaks because we wanted to try out stuff we didn't have and also didn't wanna have to drag what we did have into school, we all had fun and everyone was fine with it.

If you love all aspects of the hobby, good, that's fine, but maybe open your eyes to the fact that your way isn't the only way to enjoy the hobby.

How is 3 colours and based a hard concept for people to grasp as "painted". Nobody is demanding you edge highlight a model's purity seal or have a scenic base on them all. There are 129 videos on the Warhammer YouTube page SPECIFICALLY dedicated to Battle Ready painting. Loads of companies produce coloured spray to skip the basecoat stage and there's even contrast to rip the time it takes to paint a model in half. It's so easy to get around the "10pts for a painted army" rule it's a joke people are actually up in arms about it. For sake Necrons is as easy as, spray metal, wash, do eyes and pewpew bits, slap some mud on the base and hey presto, you're done.

 Gert wrote:
How is 3 colours and based a hard concept for people to grasp as "painted". Nobody is demanding you edge highlight a model's purity seal or have a scenic base on them all. There are 129 videos on the Warhammer YouTube page SPECIFICALLY dedicated to Battle Ready painting. Loads of companies produce coloured spray to skip the basecoat stage and there's even contrast to rip the time it takes to paint a model in half. It's so easy to get around the "10pts for a painted army" rule it's a joke people are actually up in arms about it.

Let me put it clearly: No one gets to demand that I paint my miniatures and have me take them seriously. If I want to show up with the "grey knights," that's my prerogative. I should not be punished for it, because painting is only a part of the hobby.

Again, when it's your time and money spent, you get to tell me how to play my miniatures. Until then, I'll happily just not play, if that's my option.

I don't know if it's been quoted in this thread or not, but can someone quote (or at least tell the page number) of the rule in question?

EDIT: Just to put this out there - it doesn't matter how easy or difficult, how cheap or expensive, how fast or how slow YOU find a part of the hobby to be, others will find it to be different than you do, and that doesn't make them wrong or mean they should be penalized for it.

 Gert wrote:
How is 3 colours and based a hard concept for people to grasp as "painted". Nobody is demanding you edge highlight a model's purity seal or have a scenic base on them all. There are 129 videos on the Warhammer YouTube page SPECIFICALLY dedicated to Battle Ready painting. Loads of companies produce coloured spray to skip the basecoat stage and there's even contrast to rip the time it takes to paint a model in half. It's so easy to get around the "10pts for a painted army" rule it's a joke people are actually up in arms about it.

You act like people aren't already paying for the privilege to play this game. Why can't people understand the concept that you shouldn't be able to tell people "you can't play with the models you have payed for" because you don't think they look nice.

 Octopoid wrote:

 Gert wrote:
How is 3 colours and based a hard concept for people to grasp as "painted". Nobody is demanding you edge highlight a model's purity seal or have a scenic base on them all. There are 129 videos on the Warhammer YouTube page SPECIFICALLY dedicated to Battle Ready painting. Loads of companies produce coloured spray to skip the basecoat stage and there's even contrast to rip the time it takes to paint a model in half. It's so easy to get around the "10pts for a painted army" rule it's a joke people are actually up in arms about it.

Let me put it clearly: No one gets to demand that I paint my miniatures and have me take them seriously. If I want to show up with the "grey knights," that's my prerogative. I should not be punished for it, because painting is only a part of the hobby.

Again, when it's your time and money spent, you get to tell me how to play my miniatures. Until then, I'll happily just not play, if that's my option.

I don't know if it's been quoted in this thread or not, but can someone quote (or at least tell the page number) of the rule in question?

Nobody is demanding that you paint your miniatures. If you're playing without house rules, you just don't receive 10 points. That's not much of a punishment. Of course, you can always agree to house rules, but keep in mind that your opponent doesn't have to play by them, and can refuse a game as much as you can refuse to game without them.

Why can't people understand the concept that you shouldn't be able to tell people "you can't play with the models you have payed for" because you don't think they look nice.

Who has said you can't play? Not getting 10 points != unable to play.

When did I say you can't play because they aren't painted? Oh, right I didn't and neither did GW.
You don't get 10pts in the game, oh no. Pick easy objectives (which BTW there are so many) so you don't have to worry about being 10pts down if you're playing against a painted army.
This narrative that people who don't paint their armies are some kind of folk hero fighting against the evil GW is utter nonsense.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I don't understand why people don't get there are 3 distinct hobbies in this "hobby": building models, painting models and wargaming.

Some people love the building and painting part of the hobby but hate the actual game, should they be forced to play the game because it's a "part of the hobby"?

Some people love playing the wargames but have never been one for building and painting, why should they be forced to do that? Years ago, back in school, we used to play paper-hammer during lunch breaks because we wanted to try out stuff we didn't have and also didn't wanna have to drag what we did have into school, we all had fun and everyone was fine with it.

If you love all aspects of the hobby, good, that's fine, but maybe open your eyes to the fact that your way isn't the only way to enjoy the hobby.

If you consider it to be three distinct hobbies, what about the people who love the 'wargaming' but hate the 'building models' part of the hobby? Are we obligated to accommodate them by allowing piles of bits on bases to be used as models?

I think if you can reasonably expect someone to build the models, it is equally reasonable to expect them to be painted to the very, very, very low standard required by the rules. And if that's too much, then they can still play- albeit with an extremely mild handicap that in most games won't matter, and only matters at the end, after the winner or loser by the game itself has already been determined.

I'm honestly completely fine with people not enjoying the painting aspect of the hobby, or trying things out before they're fully painted, or wanting to proxy an army they don't have. But you don't see people demanding to play with cardboard cutouts or fully proxied armies, and railing against even the most pillow-fisted of meaningless handicaps, like you do with unpainted models.

Why should there be a handicap at all, even (or perhaps especially) a meaningless one? Why does anyone get to tell me that my game should be penalized because I didn't choose to paint my miniatures?

This is a stupid rule that encourages elitist gatekeeping. No one has said I can't play, true, but it's pretty clear that my unpainted minis aren't welcome, so I'll take my wargaming time, money, and effort elsewhere.

*GW makes 40k to sell minis*
*GW puts rule in 40k to promote painting said miniatures*
Internet people: This is unbelievable, how could GW do this

 catbarf wrote:
If you consider it to be three distinct hobbies, what about the people who love the 'wargaming' but hate the 'building models' part of the hobby? Are we obligated to accommodate them by allowing piles of bits on bases to be used as models?

I think if you can reasonably expect someone to build the models, it is equally reasonable to expect them to be painted to the very, very, very low standard required by the rules. And if that's too much, then they can still play- albeit with an extremely mild handicap that in most games won't matter, and only matters at the end, after the winner or loser by the game itself has already been determined.

I'm honestly completely fine with people not enjoying the painting aspect of the hobby, or trying things out before they're fully painted, or wanting to proxy an army they don't have. But you don't see people demanding to play with cardboard cutouts or fully proxied armies, and railing against even the most pillow-fisted of meaningless handicaps, like you do with unpainted models.

I mean, I literally said I was fine with paper hammer if that's what people wanna do and the opponent is fine with it.

Don't get me wrong, if you wanna refuse a game with someone because you don't like their army because it's: unpainted, proxied, literally paper, etc. that's fine, you're entitled to play the game how you want and with who you want. But that same player should be fine to refuse a game that enforces the 10pts bonus for a painted army and I for one would never enforce the 10pt bonus rule if my opponent wanted to play with whatever.

If GW made a rule that said “You cannot paint a model until it wounds an enemy model or scores any Victory Points,” how would you feel about that?

That’s how I feel about “You have to paint your models to earn something in-game.”

Why does anyone get to tell me that my game should be penalized because I didn't choose to paint my miniatures?

Because they literally made the game. They made ALL of the rules! They tell you exactly how to play!
You can play with your miniatures by any rules you want, including rules you make up. If you're agreeing to a game of 40k, without house rules, you need to play by the rules that they set.

You can't play a game, lose by 9 points and then say, "oh, this entire time we've been playing under my house rule where there are no 10 points for painted models, so I actually win by 1"

just be up front. Ask your opponent, "hey, do you mind playing by a house rule where neither of us gets 10 points for having a painted army? I feel that it is unfair to me"

 Gert wrote:
*GW makes 40k to sell minis*
*GW puts rule in 40k to promote painting said miniatures*
Internet people: This is unbelievable, how could GW do this

If their intent is to promote painting the miniatures, they missed. What they've done is punish NOT painting the miniatures.

What if I have a hand tremor? What if I'm colorblind? What if I'm broke? What if I work two jobs? What if I don't like my painting style? What if I just don't want to paint my minis?

GW makes the minis and the rules, so they're perfectly within their rights to put this rule in. "Within their rights" doesn't mean "correct to do so."

I mean those are utterly different concepts with wildly different outcomes. Like not even close to the same thing. You've pointed at an apple and called it a whale.

Always play it painted.