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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That was battery powered. If you haven't looked at Imperial Vehicles lately, they have gas canisters and smoke stacks on them. Not battery powered. I mean, models not = to fluff, but I always thought it was dumb there were smoke stacks on futuristic sci-fi vehicles.


are you familer with the concept known as a Hybrid?


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Land Raiders also have auxiliary reactors.... What they are meant to do and how they are powered, who knows, they could be a form of fusion.

Also, the standard engine is an adaptable thermic combustion, in universe it could be possible that a fuel doesn't require an oxygen supply (the writers can sort of make up whatever they want).

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't think anyone has said they regularly use land raiders etc in zero gee.just that they can operate in vaccum. VERY differant things.

A vehicle could work just fine in vaccum. we pulled it off in the 60s for god's sake!




You'll notice that that is not a tank.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Flipsiders wrote:
There's a huge difference between customizing power armor for space and making entire tanks usable in a vacuum. Driving a tank on top of a ship isn't just stupid because it's a tank. It's stupid because everything a tank could do, either a mounted gun or a spacecraft could do better.


Ah, no. That's like claiming that everything a tank could do, an aircraft could do better. And the world is pretty much filled with counter examples that come down to:
1. The surface vehicle is less complicated than the aircraft or spacecraft.
2. If something goes wrong with a surface vehicle, you can get out and walk, without having to deal with crashing first.
3. All sorts of areas that you can get a surface vehicle into that you can't get a spacecraft or aircraft into.

And the reason why you have a tank instead of a mounted gun is pretty simple: Suppose you've got a leech on your back. Firing mounted guns at surface boarders is like using a handgun to remove the leech (the handgun held by your hand being the "mounted gun" being used by the ship).

   
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Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

 solkan wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
There's a huge difference between customizing power armor for space and making entire tanks usable in a vacuum. Driving a tank on top of a ship isn't just stupid because it's a tank. It's stupid because everything a tank could do, either a mounted gun or a spacecraft could do better.


Ah, no. That's like claiming that everything a tank could do, an aircraft could do better. And the world is pretty much filled with counter examples that come down to:
1. The surface vehicle is less complicated than the aircraft or spacecraft.
2. If something goes wrong with a surface vehicle, you can get out and walk, without having to deal with crashing first.
3. All sorts of areas that you can get a surface vehicle into that you can't get a spacecraft or aircraft into.

And the reason why you have a tank instead of a mounted gun is pretty simple: Suppose you've got a leech on your back. Firing mounted guns at surface boarders is like using a handgun to remove the leech (the handgun held by your hand being the "mounted gun" being used by the ship).



So, let's be clear here. The situation that's being discussed is as follows: The defending force is manning an extremely large spaceship. The attacking force sends infantry to board the ship (you mentioned that mounted guns wouldn't be useful in this situation, and I agree). We are now discussing whether the defending force should use tanks on the surface of the spaceship, in the vacuum of space as a form of defense. The next step is to address the three ways in which real-life tanks can be superior to real-life aircraft:

1. Given what vehicles look like in 40k, this obviously isn't an upside.
2. This point is somewhat defensible. However, since this is a zero-gravity environment, it's arguable that one could simply eject from their aircraft and fly down after it, presumably with the help of some propulsion device. There's a counterargument there that if the larger spacecraft is in motion, it would speed away from the ejected pilot in accordance with Newton's laws of motion. However, the same could also be said for a tank which malfunctions and loses its magnetic traction function, which would subject it to the same zero-gravity environment as said pilot. There's also the possibility of the tank being hit by space debris, which spacecraft would be more capable of avoiding. With these factors in mind, I would argue that a tank and a small spacecraft are about equally unsafe in this fighting environment.
3. If you built a spaceship with non-breathable areas that are large enough to drive a tank into, I have some questions about your spaceship.

I only just thought of this, but the one argument I could see for using ground vehicles on a battle across a spaceship would be if you were a member of the offensive party, rather than the defensive one. It would be helpful to drop off such vehicles with transport aircraft such as Thunderhawks, then use them to drive into areas such as hangars and infiltrate deeper into the ship. Under those specific circumstances, which I imagine would occur somewhat regularly, I'll grudgingly admit that vacuum-sealed tanks would be extremely helpful. However, using tanks on the outside of spaceships in order to defend them is still utter nonsense.


Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Flipsiders wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I don't think anyone has said they regularly use land raiders etc in zero gee.just that they can operate in vaccum. VERY differant things.

A vehicle could work just fine in vaccum. we pulled it off in the 60s for god's sake!




You'll notice that that is not a tank.


you'll notice that doesn't matter when the point is to prove vehicles operating in the vaccum is possiable

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

It's canon that land raiders can operate in space and underwater as they are hermetically sealed. No need to speculate. Logically they would have hybrid electric systems.

Considering the energy density required to power a lasgun, there's no reason why they wouldn't


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Tthe soviets just needed more time to work out the bugs for a rocket powered tank

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/29 01:20:01


Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Lets be honest now. This is super scifi space drama. If the writers of the narrative want a vehicle or fighting force to work or not work in a vacuum they'll make it so they can.

I believe in one of the ultramarine vs Word Bearers Horus Heresy novels there was a skirmish on the hull of a battle barge. It even had a helmetless Guilliman wander into the fight after he'd been earlier yanked into space by an explosive decompression. How long he stayed out there is uncertain though, buuuuut that is a Primarch, they have plot armour thicker than an orks skull.

Boltguns possibly would work in space. They are miniature rockets by nature so I guess it depends on what sort of propellant/fuel they use.

It gets real interesting when you talk about Xenos races though.
Necrons, well yeah that's a gimmie.
Eldar? I'd imagine they have the wargear considering they're a space faring race, and most of their tech uses grav or magnetic impulsion to function
Tau, again super advanced, battlesuits would likely excel in vacuums.
Nids? Well, a sizable chunk of their species live in the void at all times so i'd imagine they'd have variants for that sort of fighting.
Would Daemons require oxygen? I mean, probably not. They can break a handful of physical laws at whim right?
Orks though? Maybe they'd have forcefield generators carry around bubbles of air or even grav. In a novel or two they have had non-voidworthy ships kept functioning with small bubble generators. (evilsunz rising)
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Flipsiders wrote:

3. If you built a spaceship with non-breathable areas that are large enough to drive a tank into, I have some questions about your spaceship.
To stage and land any fighter craft?

Any cargo areas that don't require active life support.

The counter to your point is why have a pressurized atmosphere in any area where it's not needed?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Longtime Dakkanaut




This is an extremely niche example, but there are novels that show craftworlders venting (or at least sucking air out of) sections of the craftworld to suffocate or vent invading imperials. So if you're a space marine with a cracked helmet making his way through a craftworld biodome, you might find yourself glad that the rhino is vacuum sealed.

More commonly, I could see marines fighting in areas full of poisonous gas or other environmental hazards. Their vehicles might be sealed to keep threats like that out and end up being void-proof as a side-effect.


EDIT: Also, don't they frequently return to their ships via thunderhawk? If the cargo door to your thunderhawk is damaged and your helmet is long gone, you'll probably be grateful for a void-sealed rhino to hide in during the flight through space back to your battle barge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 02:02:21


 
   
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Les Etats Unis

BrianDavion wrote:

you'll notice that doesn't matter when the point is to prove vehicles operating in the vaccum is possiable


The discussion isn't about whether it's possible, it's about whether one would ever need to drive a tank in space in the first place.

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:

3. If you built a spaceship with non-breathable areas that are large enough to drive a tank into, I have some questions about your spaceship.
To stage and land any fighter craft?

Any cargo areas that don't require active life support.

The counter to your point is why have a pressurized atmosphere in any area where it's not needed?


If one expects their enemies to drop upon them out of space and invade, wouldn't it be more practical to maintain an atmosphere in breachable areas than to only field tanks and Space Marines? Cargo Bays in particular would likely require extra security.

Again, the fact that vacuum-sealed Rhinos would be helpful for boarding missions is unfortunately reason enough to put in the effort, but I'll still argue there's no advantage to their use when on the defensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 03:07:08


Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





This is 40K we're talking about. I don't think you're likely to have fun with the universe if you insist that everything be practical. So much of 40K and a lot of other sci fi universes are so laughably impractical it's part of the appeal.

Could you imagine trying to account for the amount of resources wasted on things that are either frivolous or pointless as ornamentation or things such as religious paraphernalia. In a universe where resources are often stated to be in short supply. (if you're not part of the wealthy class at least)
   
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Les Etats Unis

cody.d. wrote:
This is 40K we're talking about. I don't think you're likely to have fun with the universe if you insist that everything be practical. So much of 40K and a lot of other sci fi universes are so laughably impractical it's part of the appeal.

Could you imagine trying to account for the amount of resources wasted on things that are either frivolous or pointless as ornamentation or things such as religious paraphernalia. In a universe where resources are often stated to be in short supply. (if you're not part of the wealthy class at least)


Here's the final paragraph in the comment which started this debate in the first place:

 Flipsiders wrote:
Now, since we're talking 40k, I'll always be in favor of stupid, hilarious lore being added to the setting. But if you're fine with driving tanks on spaceships yet still have an issue with the Arkhan Land joke, you need to get your priorities in order.


A lot of people think that 40k should be even remotely realistic in terms of history and warfare, when the setting's clearly not designed with that in mind. If 40k was realistic, I'd switch to Infinity.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Flipsiders wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

you'll notice that doesn't matter when the point is to prove vehicles operating in the vaccum is possiable


The discussion isn't about whether it's possible, it's about whether one would ever need to drive a tank in space in the first place.


the fact that in the 1960s we saw a need for a vehicle on the moon indicates there is a need

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






BrianDavion wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

you'll notice that doesn't matter when the point is to prove vehicles operating in the vaccum is possiable


The discussion isn't about whether it's possible, it's about whether one would ever need to drive a tank in space in the first place.


the fact that in the 1960s we saw a need for a vehicle on the moon indicates there is a need
+1

Ore-rich moon has valuable mining facility on it, and has been taken over by heretical forces. Anti-air/space defenses force a ground attack. Land Raiders silently carve their way across the moons surface to besiege the facility and return it to His holy service.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

you'll notice that doesn't matter when the point is to prove vehicles operating in the vaccum is possiable


The discussion isn't about whether it's possible, it's about whether one would ever need to drive a tank in space in the first place.


the fact that in the 1960s we saw a need for a vehicle on the moon indicates there is a need
+1

Ore-rich moon has valuable mining facility on it, and has been taken over by heretical forces. Anti-air/space defenses force a ground attack. Land Raiders silently carve their way across the moons surface to besiege the facility and return it to His holy service.


right I didn't think I needed to explain why there might be settylements on worlds without atomspheres in warhammer 40lk... I kiiinda assumed that was self evidant

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






^not posted for you necessarily.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Insectum7 wrote:
^not posted for you necessarily.


yeah just noting I'm a little suprised some people don't seem to understand this

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Flipsiders wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I don't think anyone has said they regularly use land raiders etc in zero gee.just that they can operate in vaccum. VERY differant things.

A vehicle could work just fine in vaccum. we pulled it off in the 60s for god's sake!




You'll notice that that is not a tank.


That was more of a delivery issue. Even if they thought they needed to, there was absolutely no way they could've sent an AFV onto the moon. With 60s tech anyway
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




All this is really making me hope they don't cancel "Space Force"! It was getting really good with the two groups of astronauts basically going to war on the moon.
   
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Exalted Beastlord




 Flipsiders wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are Astartes capable of fighting in space? Not like floating around, but maglocked to the hull of their ship for instance? Can they even discharge their weapons in space? Is there any precedence for it? Obviously they could go hand to hand, but I doubt a Chainsword would work, as it's a fuel based engine design? So knives out?


yes space marines can work 100% well in space. even the basic rhino and land raider IIRC can operate in vaccuum.


Who the hell is running around with land raiders in space?


Definitely blood angels, since they do aerial drops of the bloody things.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Flipsiders wrote:
The discussion isn't about whether it's possible, it's about whether one would ever need to drive a tank in space in the first place.


Wouldn't the condition in which a tank would be driven in space or more accurately in a vacuum space would the same than within atmosphere: to provide cover and fire support for infantry, destroy fortifications, etc.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

I’m no physicist but all this could a tank drive in space and all this moot. The reference was to land raiders working in vacuum. So not in space. But on a surface with no atmosphere. No atmosphere and no gravity are not the shame thing surely? I may be wrong and am prepared to be told so.
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Ships must have some kind of artificial gravity generators; I don't recall anyone inside floating around in zero-g... Could that extend to the exterior hull and maybe a little further?

Otherwise, magnets are the easiest answer.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 Tiennos wrote:
Ships must have some kind of artificial gravity generators; I don't recall anyone inside floating around in zero-g... Could that extend to the exterior hull and maybe a little further?

Otherwise, magnets are the easiest answer.


We know grav/anti grav is a thing. It’s not unreasonable to have something fitted to tanks to let them roll normally anywhere. Also reasonable to assume some of the ship’s internal gravity effects the hull.

The underlying tech already exists in the universe. Rule of Cool impacts how it fits into any story.

   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Andykp wrote:
I’m no physicist but all this could a tank drive in space and all this moot. The reference was to land raiders working in vacuum. So not in space. But on a surface with no atmosphere. No atmosphere and no gravity are not the shame thing surely? I may be wrong and am prepared to be told so.
Hehehe. . .

Technically a Land Raider floating in Space could spin itself around a bit by driving it's treads. It's got turrets and sponsons that swivel about too, and is more armored than the various fighter craft. Kick 'em out the airlock to deploy as point defense and reel 'em back in later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/30 22:25:32


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

The whole Space part of Space Marine I guess. They are Space Marines after all?

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






With Astartes, it’s probably worth remembering they’re capable of scrapping it out as-is in pretty much any atmosphere, not just Earth Standard and Vacuum.

Power armoured is fully sealed, and it’s own movement boosting nature means even underwater they can move better than most - though almost certainly still not as freely as on land.

Irradiated wasteland? Good to go. Toxic smog cloud? Good to go. Highly acidic precipitation? Good to go.

It’s standardised so they don’t need to put on specialised kit. Wherever they get sent, if something needs it’s head kicked in, they’re ready, willing and able without having to worry about exactly what kit they might need for the engagement - their power armour does it all.

Of course, when not an environment their enhanced biology can breathe freely in, their engagement time is somewhat more limited, due to oxygen reserves. Even being recycled, it’s still more finite than an atmosphere.

But to revisit one of my favourite 40K concepts? I do wonder if they might have adapted jump pack equivalents for deep sea fighting. I don’t think it’s ever been stated one way or the other.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But to revisit one of my favourite 40K concepts? I do wonder if they might have adapted jump pack equivalents for deep sea fighting. I don’t think it’s ever been stated one way or the other.
You would think that if they work in a vacuum (i.e. not reliant on atmosphere) there's a decent chance they'd work in the water too. I know they have what looks like air intake vents and all that. . . but void capable Thunderhawks do too. The aesthetics are goofy but the function might be there.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

(Images in spoiler tags)

Marines absolutely fight in the void. Power armour from MkII onwards is repeatedly described as being void sealed.

Here is Imperial Fists veteran legionary Gunther (on the left). During the Battle of Phall (one of the largest void battles of the Horus Heresy), he was participating in a boarding action on an Iron Warriors grand cruiser by using his jump pack to cross the gap. From this we can infer that Space Marine jump packs also work in the void of space, and it is additionally reasonable to assume his chainsword and bolt pistol function effectively in space.

Spoiler:


In the image below, Executioners are fighting on the airless moons of Khymara against Howling Griffons forces. Note the presence of Dreadnoughts and tanks- several Howling Griffon vehicles are also noted as having fought on the surface of Khymara, including Land Raiders (image link below). From this we can see that Dreadnought, Land Raider, and Rhino based vehicles can fight in vacuum.



This is apparently variably referred to in the background, but basic power armour features thrusters that can be used for manoeuvring in low or zero G environments. These are the two vents on either side of the backpack. The Death Guard Marine on the left below is noted as using a prototype Anvilus-pattern backpack that provides greater manoeuvrability in void operations (at the expense of worse rad shielding).

Spoiler:


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/02 15:48:27


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
 
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