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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Niiai wrote:
Insectum7 I think maiby I am confusing you. I am arguing that the assault cannon is good on the razroback. Although it is not a blanket statement as there are options where the heavy bolter is better, it has longer range as is cheaper. I think you and I am in agrement and that we both do not think deerhunters argument about 15 points beeing overpriced is very good. Even though it is in fact 15 points more.

Yes, the assault cannon razorback is trash compared to the volkite redemptor, and that is because it is way undercosted. (If the twin heavy bolter is 15 points on the redemptor, and the volkite is better, perhaps it should cost 20 points or there about.)

When I state regular marines are tras compared to their primaris version I am talking about their troop choise. I would have thought this is obvius from the context as I am saying Blood Claws and Grey Hunters are good compared to their primaris equilant.. Bladeguard veterans and jump vanguard marines have very different roles, as one of them has 12" move, I would think you would understand this out from our conversation. But when you compare the Tactical Squad to the Interscessor squad the tactical squad is utterly trash. If you compare assault marines without jump packs with assault interscessors it becomes even worse as you do not fill your mandatory troops and you loose objective secure. Blod claws and grey hunters however are very comperable to both of them.
^Totally disagree about Intercessors vs. Tacticals. The upgrades that Tacticals can carry make them much more valuable, imo.

This is super abbreviated, but vs. Marines (for example)
10 Intercessors (200 points), Bolt Rifles
.666 x .5 x .5 x 20 = 3.3 wounds

10 Tacticals (200 points), Bolters + Grav Cannon
(.666 x .5 x .333 x 18) + (.666 x .666 x .83 x 2 x 4) = 4.9 wounds

Equal points. Same defense. Better offense. Plus that's not even adding the other two weapons, one Special, one Combi Weapon. In Rapid fire range Tacticals get:

10 Tacticals, Grav Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma, (220 points) Rapid Firing.
(.666 x .5 x .333 x 14) + (.666 x .666 x .83 x 2 x 4) + (.666 x .83 x .83 x 2 x 2 x 2) = 8.16 wounds

Even if the Intercessors are firing twice with the Strat, the Tacticals can out shoot them. You can also take them in min-sized squads with Heavy and Combi, further increasing their firepower density per-body. I LOVE Tacticals. As an Ultramarine successor, my Tacs moving and firing without penalty to the Heavy weapon, and if caught in close combat I can back out and blast 'em.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 00:44:27


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 wuestenfux wrote:
I know that a shooty platform should keep the enemy at arm's length, but just in case.
I'd be cautious to use a transport and use it only for shooty purposes, as you pay for the transport capability and do not use it.
Yeah, if you are only using the Razorback for dakka, look at just taking a Rapier Carrier with Quad Heavy Bolter. Heavy 12 for 75 points seems pretty good.
Actually, I wonder how that compares to the Volkite Relic Contemptor ... if you have the slots in your detachment anyway.

Doing some Mathhammer...ties probably go for Rapier Carrier since I am not including the Boltgun.

Volkite Relic Contemptor: Heavy 16 6 0 2 150 points
2x Rapier Carrier Quad Heavy Bolter: Heavy 24 5 -1 2 150 points, some boltgun too.

Surprisingly, against 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+ and 6+ armor saves, the Heavy Bolter comes out ahead for T3, T4, T5, & T7 and ties the Volkites for T6. Weight of shots I suppose.
But against effectively 1+ armor save, Volkites win every time.

When the target has -1 Damage the MW are amplified a bit.
Vs 2+ & 3+ armor save: HB wins T3 & T4, Volkites win out T5, T6 & T7
Vs 4+ armor save: HB wins T3 & T4, ties T5 & T7, Volkite wins T6
Vs 5+ & 6+ armor save: HB wins T3, T4, T5, & T7, Volkite wins T6

Of course, Relic Contemptor wins Durability and Mobility since it has Duty Eternal and 8" movement vs 4". Rapier Carrier doesn't explode though I suppose.
   
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Dakka Veteran




Razorback needs to be like 90 points minimum to even be considered. It's just not great.
   
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Been Around the Block




Last edition I played (3rd), Rhinos were +50 points and Razorbacks were +70. And 2 models could fire out of the top hatch on the Rhino. Drop pods were 30 and could carry a 5 Terminators or a Dreadnaught.
80 points with no hatch options or 110 for heavy bolters or 70 for a the drop pod (and it can't carry terminators) is a bit of a sticker shock for me.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Kaied wrote:
Last edition I played (3rd), Rhinos were +50 points and Razorbacks were +70. And 2 models could fire out of the top hatch on the Rhino. Drop pods were 30 and could carry a 5 Terminators or a Dreadnaught.
80 points with no hatch options or 110 for heavy bolters or 70 for a the drop pod (and it can't carry terminators) is a bit of a sticker shock for me.


In that edition an ass can razorback fired only 4 twin linked shots though, now 12. And AV11 was much easier to crack than T7 3+.

30ppm transports were always a bad idea in terms of game design, I hated my 30ppm ork trukks.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I agree, you need to make use to all the vehicles' ability. But simply protecting the infantries from one turn of shooting can be a good deal. When I play my SW I only have tanks and TWC as valid targets turn one. The opponent must crack the transports in order to damage the infantries. A transport can work even if it doesn't move.
I fully agree with this. I've been using Transports to keep my troops more protected from the initial opponent barrage since about 5th ed. I'll also use them to block LOS to troops behind them.


This is why I keep wanting to fit a Rhino/Razorback or 2 into my lists, that idea that I've got not only transport, but portable blocking. However, yeah, that was much easier to fit back at 30-50pts than 80. Also, and this one seems to vary so much:
Do your opponents count a Rhino as blocking LOS?

I feel like half players play that it blocks LOS and half play that you can fire through any tiny gap, so those tread gaps under the chassis render the tank essentially transparent to shooting. I'm not paying for a mobile wall that doesn't protect my units behind. I don't watch many pro game streams, but what few I have they never had a Rhino to see how big tournies play them.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 Blackie wrote:
Kaied wrote:
Last edition I played (3rd), Rhinos were +50 points and Razorbacks were +70. And 2 models could fire out of the top hatch on the Rhino. Drop pods were 30 and could carry a 5 Terminators or a Dreadnaught.
80 points with no hatch options or 110 for heavy bolters or 70 for a the drop pod (and it can't carry terminators) is a bit of a sticker shock for me.


In that edition an ass can razorback fired only 4 twin linked shots though, now 12. And AV11 was much easier to crack than T7 3+.

30ppm transports were always a bad idea in terms of game design, I hated my 30ppm ork trukks.


I always loved my 30 point trukks lol, much better than what we have now. Transports just seem like trash unless you get some sort of rule that actually lets you use the speed.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






bort wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I agree, you need to make use to all the vehicles' ability. But simply protecting the infantries from one turn of shooting can be a good deal. When I play my SW I only have tanks and TWC as valid targets turn one. The opponent must crack the transports in order to damage the infantries. A transport can work even if it doesn't move.
I fully agree with this. I've been using Transports to keep my troops more protected from the initial opponent barrage since about 5th ed. I'll also use them to block LOS to troops behind them.


This is why I keep wanting to fit a Rhino/Razorback or 2 into my lists, that idea that I've got not only transport, but portable blocking. However, yeah, that was much easier to fit back at 30-50pts than 80. Also, and this one seems to vary so much:
Do your opponents count a Rhino as blocking LOS?

I feel like half players play that it blocks LOS and half play that you can fire through any tiny gap, so those tread gaps under the chassis render the tank essentially transparent to shooting. I'm not paying for a mobile wall that doesn't protect my units behind. I don't watch many pro game streams, but what few I have they never had a Rhino to see how big tournies play them.
My opponents have always been on the "blocks LOS" side of things, which is pretty important. I'd also say that it's sorta rare that it explicitly comes up, too. There's often some scatter terrain that might be in the way, or the Rhino is at a bit of an angle, making LOS between the undercarriage spaces more difficult, or maybe people just have other targets they want to shoot at or forget that firing under the tank is even a possibility. It's a grey area for sure.

Personally I think there should just be a rule stating that you cant draw LOS under a tank. It's ridiculous that 'technically' you might be able to draw LOS under the tank between the tread wheels. I've considered putting LOS blocking chains or something on/under my Rhino chassis too, but that could definitely be in "modeling for advantage" territory, and I don't really want to be that guy. The rule bugs me so much I kinda want to do it out of protest. It's just awkward.

Edit: Land Raiders on the other hand, are pretty much giant frigging solid walls. I don't use them often, but you can hide Dreadnoughts behind them, no problem. It is occasionally very valuable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 18:11:46


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

bort wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I agree, you need to make use to all the vehicles' ability. But simply protecting the infantries from one turn of shooting can be a good deal. When I play my SW I only have tanks and TWC as valid targets turn one. The opponent must crack the transports in order to damage the infantries. A transport can work even if it doesn't move.
I fully agree with this. I've been using Transports to keep my troops more protected from the initial opponent barrage since about 5th ed. I'll also use them to block LOS to troops behind them.


This is why I keep wanting to fit a Rhino/Razorback or 2 into my lists, that idea that I've got not only transport, but portable blocking. However, yeah, that was much easier to fit back at 30-50pts than 80. Also, and this one seems to vary so much:
Do your opponents count a Rhino as blocking LOS?

I feel like half players play that it blocks LOS and half play that you can fire through any tiny gap, so those tread gaps under the chassis render the tank essentially transparent to shooting. I'm not paying for a mobile wall that doesn't protect my units behind. I don't watch many pro game streams, but what few I have they never had a Rhino to see how big tournies play them.


I always play true line of sight. A rhino would not ne able to block LOS I think. Although you would need to be able to see the model, not only the base. I do believe some guard tanks and the landraider can block LOS.

   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:


I always loved my 30 point trukks lol, much better than what we have now. Transports just seem like trash unless you get some sort of rule that actually lets you use the speed.


I didn't. Just like I didn't like 6ppm boyz. In fact the only edition in which I used to field lots of boyz was 3rd, when they cost 8 or 9. I hate spamming stuff and with the massive 2000 points standard battlefields are already too crowded with models, massive points drops would be nightmare.

30ppm trukks in old editions means losing 4 models in one turn, now they're much more resilient. Only in 3rd they were playable without spamming at least 8, but then only a few selected units could ride in a trukk. I can field 2-3 trukks now and one at least should always survive the alpha strike.

 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll also use them to block LOS to troops behind them.


Kind of tricky since you can draw los from under marine transports for example

2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll also use them to block LOS to troops behind them.


Kind of tricky since you can draw los from under marine transports for example
Welll. . .
A: Not everyone plays that way.
B: Some people genuinely forget or don't think about it.
C: Even a low crater is enough to block any gaps between the wheels of the treads.

Any gaps are so low that the tiniest scatter terrain will work.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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 Blackie wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:


I always loved my 30 point trukks lol, much better than what we have now. Transports just seem like trash unless you get some sort of rule that actually lets you use the speed.


I didn't. Just like I didn't like 6ppm boyz. In fact the only edition in which I used to field lots of boyz was 3rd, when they cost 8 or 9. I hate spamming stuff and with the massive 2000 points standard battlefields are already too crowded with models, massive points drops would be nightmare.

30ppm trukks in old editions means losing 4 models in one turn, now they're much more resilient. Only in 3rd they were playable without spamming at least 8, but then only a few selected units could ride in a trukk. I can field 2-3 trukks now and one at least should always survive the alpha strike.


I’ve always liked orks when you have 4 trukks blow up, but not have it matter because you have 5 more that just made their way through. It seems to be a weird mentality for the unstoppable green tide that a lot of ork players just don’t like pushing out a ton of boyz. In my lists I always (before 9th dex) ran 100 boyz minimum.
Cheap boyz means more toyz too.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Well, I hate spamming the same stuff and 8-9 trukks is something I'm not willing to accept as the only effective way to field trukks. These days I can field 2 or 3 (even 1 actually!) and be ok since I can get saturation by fielding lots of other vehicles, which wasn't a possibility in the past. I'm really glad about that.

For the same reason I never liked fielding 90-100 boyz. If you could bring 20-60 then you'll have budget for lots of toys, including boyz with different weapons/rules. In fact I consider kommandos, stormboyz, burnaboyz, lootas, tankbutas to be boyz as well, so a greentide I'm willing to field has 60-80 1W ork models at most, not necessarily boyz, then gretchins and multiwounds orks such as nobz, meganobz or flash gitz.

More cheap dudes simply bores me, especially if they are all of the same kind. It all feels very gamey.

Same reason why I hated bringing 5-6 razorbacks in 5th or beginning of 8th. I'm currently fielding 3 pretty much everytime and that already feels quite spammy to me .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 07:53:17


 
   
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Kaied wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
I know that a shooty platform should keep the enemy at arm's length, but just in case.
I'd be cautious to use a transport and use it only for shooty purposes, as you pay for the transport capability and do not use it.
Yeah, if you are only using the Razorback for dakka, look at just taking a Rapier Carrier with Quad Heavy Bolter. Heavy 12 for 75 points seems pretty good.
Actually, I wonder how that compares to the Volkite Relic Contemptor ... if you have the slots in your detachment anyway.

Doing some Mathhammer...ties probably go for Rapier Carrier since I am not including the Boltgun.

Volkite Relic Contemptor: Heavy 16 6 0 2 150 points
2x Rapier Carrier Quad Heavy Bolter: Heavy 24 5 -1 2 150 points, some boltgun too.

Surprisingly, against 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+ and 6+ armor saves, the Heavy Bolter comes out ahead for T3, T4, T5, & T7 and ties the Volkites for T6. Weight of shots I suppose.
But against effectively 1+ armor save, Volkites win every time.

When the target has -1 Damage the MW are amplified a bit.
Vs 2+ & 3+ armor save: HB wins T3 & T4, Volkites win out T5, T6 & T7


Vs 4+ armor save: HB wins T3 & T4, ties T5 & T7, Volkite wins T6
Vs 5+ & 6+ armor save: HB wins T3, T4, T5, & T7, Volkite wins T6

Of course, Relic Contemptor wins Durability and Mobility since it has Duty Eternal and 8" movement vs 4". Rapier Carrier doesn't explode though I suppose.


For me the rapier are 85 not 75 or i missed points change? but i realy like the rapier
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Well, I hate spamming the same stuff and 8-9 trukks is something I'm not willing to accept as the only effective way to field trukks. These days I can field 2 or 3 (even 1 actually!) and be ok since I can get saturation by fielding lots of other vehicles, which wasn't a possibility in the past. I'm really glad about that.

For the same reason I never liked fielding 90-100 boyz. If you could bring 20-60 then you'll have budget for lots of toys, including boyz with different weapons/rules. In fact I consider kommandos, stormboyz, burnaboyz, lootas, tankbutas to be boyz as well, so a greentide I'm willing to field has 60-80 1W ork models at most, not necessarily boyz, then gretchins and multiwounds orks such as nobz, meganobz or flash gitz.

More cheap dudes simply bores me, especially if they are all of the same kind. It all feels very gamey.

Same reason why I hated bringing 5-6 razorbacks in 5th or beginning of 8th. I'm currently fielding 3 pretty much everytime and that already feels quite spammy to me .


Sounds like you might like guard more?, my favorite part of orks was just plopping down 120 boyz in full kff and seeing my eldar opponent just kinda melt. Imo it’s marines that should be having 20-60 guys then their 2w, orks should be shooting for double at least.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:


Sounds like you might like guard more?, my favorite part of orks was just plopping down 120 boyz in full kff and seeing my eldar opponent just kinda melt. Imo it’s marines that should be having 20-60 guys then their 2w, orks should be shooting for double at least.


I certainly like guard but orks are my favorite army since 3rd edition. And guard tends to be much more skew oriented than orks, they're basically just soldiers and tanks while they can't really avoid using 60-120 cheap guys unlike orks.

The thing is I like armies with variety. So lots of ork infantries are ok, but not the repetition of same dudes. Stormboyz, burnaboyz, kommandos, lootas, boyz, gretchins plus the nob sized units, bikes, vehicles, etc.... I seek a combination of those in my lists, not simply 120 boyz and supporting stuff. That's why I love the current ork codex, a huge chunk of it is competitive and we can avoid skew with no problem. My favorite part with orks has always been bringing bikes, dreads, kanz, trukks, wagons, buggies AND a good number of infantries, while SM armies had a much lower model count.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/16 07:32:29


 
   
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taetrius67 wrote:
For me the rapier are 85 not 75 or i missed points change? but i realy like the rapier
Wahapedia and Battlescribe both have it at 75 points for quad heavy bolter and graviton cannon configuration, and another 35 points for Laser Destroyer or Quad Launcher. What source are you using?
   
 
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