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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Rihgu wrote:
Vehicles are hilariously non-viable. You can shut down an entire armored company turn 1 with a heavy support squad and some kheres assault cannons.

It truly is the contemptors and infantry edition.


This has always been true of 7th edition based rule sets.




 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





stratigo wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Walkers had vehicle stats since 2nd 40K.


Except Wraithlords/Eldar Dreadnoughts, which went from vehicle stats to Monstrous Creatures between 2nd and 3rd for reasons.


Eldar Dreadnoughts had vehicle stats in 2nd. They gained the monster stat in 3rd because the devs thought Eldar would turn out way too flimsy otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rihgu wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
This thread is about meta changes since 2.0 dropped, not homebrew.

My group plays 30k at NOVA, and as such they play 30k as they'll play it at NOVA (differs per event but usually Zone Mortalis, or Centurion). Even if I suggested that we make up our own houserules, it still wouldn't fly because they wouldn't be able to play NOVA using the ruleset they're familiar with.

AND! If we implemented that houserule, then it would make Contemptors useless, too. Who would be happy? The people running pure infantry?
Certainly wouldn't help the people running vehicles OR contemptors.

Think for one second, please. If you're going to present an idea so sanctimoniously at least make it a good idea.


What?! You don´t even know what you are talking about. Walkers had vehicle stats since 2nd 40K. Research first before you write such nonsense.

And Contemptors will suck? Maybe SM are the wrong faction for you. I suggest playing Tyranids and you won´t be bothered by any kind of vehicle statline.


I am aware that dreads had vehicle stats before (I have played for a long time myself), but this thread is about how Horus Heresy 2.0 has changed the meta compared to Horus Heresy 1.0. In Horus Heresy 2.0, Contemptors don't have Vehicle stats. Therefore, making Contemptors Vehicles would be a house rule and off topic, and would make the play group's ruleset wholly incompatible with the event most of them play in.

Vehicles are terrible in Horus Heresy 2.0, ergo, making that house rule would make Contemptors terrible in Horus Heresy 2.0. There are no Tyranids in Horus Heresy in 2.0, so this is another laughable suggestion.

You seem like you've stumbled into the wrong thread - are you sure I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about?


Vehicles having vehicle stats is the most normal thing in the world and thus perfectly fine. Funny how people always complain when units are terrible but when they are too good like dreads in HH 2.0 everything is fine. Dreads only got the monster stat treatment because marketing wants to sell a lot of dreads during HH 2.0. It´s not rocket science to figure that one out.

And yes you should definitely play Tyranids as your hatred towards vehicles is way off the charts.


Walkers play better as monsters then they do vehicles. They're more dynamic and they come on round bases. It was always hard to figure out what direction they are actually facing, especially if any hobby effort went into them at all. And they acted different in combat then any other vehicle too

They're overtuned, but, like, that's not because they shifted from vehicles to monsters, but because they gave them stats too close to 9th edition. They need 1 or 2 less wounds or so.


It´s not hard to figure out the facing. You just apply a white line at the base rim to show into which direction the model looks. From there you can easily figure out any kinds of LOS areas your group uses (e.g. 90° or 180°).

Walkers are not living creatures and thus shouldn´t be able to move around freely like ordinary infantry. They are supposed to be cumbersome and sluggish like shown in the first Dawn of War video game. What is really obnoxous is the fact that dreads get a saving throw AND an invulnerable save in comparison to vehicles which get none of those. It´s just immersion breaking to see how weaker armoured walkers shrug off shots without issue while tanks with considerable amount of more armour plating struggle.

If HH 2.0 would be a story walkers would benefit from plot-armour (pun intended).
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Strg Alt wrote:



It´s not hard to figure out the facing. You just apply a white line at the base rim to show into which direction the model looks. From there you can easily figure out any kinds of LOS areas your group uses (e.g. 90° or 180°).

Walkers are not living creatures and thus shouldn´t be able to move around freely like ordinary infantry. They are supposed to be cumbersome and sluggish like shown in the first Dawn of War video game. What is really obnoxous is the fact that dreads get a saving throw AND an invulnerable save in comparison to vehicles which get none of those. It´s just immersion breaking to see how weaker armoured walkers shrug off shots without issue while tanks with considerable amount of more armour plating struggle.

If HH 2.0 would be a story walkers would benefit from plot-armour (pun intended).



Exalted and couldn't agree more, it's the dreadnought mary sue edition and it's obnoxious indeed. Dreadnoughts are exactly as the name implies, slow and ponderous, they're not some anime character or spartan 360 no scoping. You see the same silliness with the change of javelins to "cavalry", they're now apparently all seeing in 360 vision and just as likely to want to get into fisticuffs as shoot something... why a high speed attack craft that hover would want or choose to get into close combat or why anyone thought this was an improvement is beyond me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/08/11 15:42:00


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Strg Alt wrote:
Walkers are not living creatures and thus shouldn´t be able to move around freely like ordinary infantry. They are supposed to be cumbersome and sluggish like shown in the first Dawn of War video game.
The same could be said of Terminators - cumbersome and sluggish.
What is really obnoxous is the fact that dreads get a saving throw AND an invulnerable save in comparison to vehicles which get none of those.
Invuln makes sense because the Dreads literally have energy shields - but I agree that vehicles should also have armour saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Dreadnoughts are exactly as the name implies, slow and ponderous, they're not some anime character or spartan 360 no scoping.
Same can be said of Terminators though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/11 19:45:06



They/them

 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






ERJAK wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
Vehicles are hilariously non-viable. You can shut down an entire armored company turn 1 with a heavy support squad and some kheres assault cannons.

It truly is the contemptors and infantry edition.


This has always been true of 7th edition based rule sets.


It's somewhat exacerbated by Lascannons having Sunder, loss of Armoured Ceramite, and a few other things. Like in HH 1.0 my friend could bring an armoured company and I could pretty reliably destroy most of his tanks over the course of the game but at least there was a game. It feels like anti-vehicle has been amped up pretty drastically (making lascannons and melta more effective alone probably accounts for that).

And in return, they don't do nearly any damage back, except against other vehicles.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Armored ceramite was just the "Oh you brought melta? You're a fething idiot" upgrade.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader






Yea I'm not saying Armoured Ceramite was good but losing it certainly does make vehicles a lot more vulnerable.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





It's sad that tanks are useless because I would love an Iron Warriors parking lot army. However, I would be crazy to do that because an army of havocs or HS squads is so much more efficient. It's much harder to take out 10 guys than it is to blow up a tank with a lascannon shot. I feel like anyone who takes a bunch of tanks against 3x heavy support squads and 2-3 dreads is going to get tabled. I want to play that game just to see what happens.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 03:55:12


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Walkers are not living creatures and thus shouldn´t be able to move around freely like ordinary infantry. They are supposed to be cumbersome and sluggish like shown in the first Dawn of War video game.
The same could be said of Terminators - cumbersome and sluggish.
What is really obnoxous is the fact that dreads get a saving throw AND an invulnerable save in comparison to vehicles which get none of those.
Invuln makes sense because the Dreads literally have energy shields - but I agree that vehicles should also have armour saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Dreadnoughts are exactly as the name implies, slow and ponderous, they're not some anime character or spartan 360 no scoping.
Same can be said of Terminators though.


Sure and deciding to arbitrarily buff them too just because gw wants to sell them in boxes of 10 now isn't helping this edition much either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
stratigo wrote:
Armored ceramite was just the "Oh you brought melta? You're a fething idiot" upgrade.


It still only justified itself on larger vehicles, not exactly stepping over myself to put in on sabres.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 07:35:29


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Its not an arbitrary buff when most Termintor units got mulched way too easily. Terminators getting 2 wounds is entirely justified.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Gert wrote:
Its not an arbitrary buff when most Termintor units got mulched way too easily. Terminators getting 2 wounds is entirely justified.


No, it just renders the more elite legios specific two wound terminators less cool, that's all it does. Healthbar 40k is what killed 8th.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Crablezworth wrote:
No, it just renders the more elite legios specific two wound terminators less cool, that's all it does. Healthbar 40k is what killed 8th.

Terminators don't go down to a single wound from small arms fire now. That is objectively a good thing and aligns with their background. That very small pool of Legion-specific Terminators that had 2 wounds still has all their unique rules and equipment that made them desirable in the first place.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crablezworth wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Its not an arbitrary buff when most Termintor units got mulched way too easily. Terminators getting 2 wounds is entirely justified.


No, it just renders the more elite legios specific two wound terminators less cool, that's all it does. Healthbar 40k is what killed 8th.


The most popular moment the game had ever been up to that point killed it, yep. Totally

It sounds more like you are grumpy your parking lot lists don’t stomp any more.
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





Terminators have 2 wounds? That's pretty sweet. I'm against normal Space Marines having 2 wounds, like it is in 9th, but Terminators earned that second wound.

And, as much as I do dislike 9th, it is extremely successful, and I think pretending that it's dead is a fool's errand.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





It has been successful in pushing me to other games the same way 7th did... I'm playing Infinity, 30k, about to start AoS, did a Necromunda campaign, finishing my Titanicus battlegroup, basically everything but 40k because the 700 stratagems and constant rules churn are just too much to keep up with. I didn't even have my army painted before my chapter approved was invalidated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/12 16:45:40


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean I’m not a huge fan of 9th at the moment either, but It is unquestionably successful. Way more then pre 8th editions
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

"dead to me" -eyeroll, heavy sigh-

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





stratigo wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Its not an arbitrary buff when most Termintor units got mulched way too easily. Terminators getting 2 wounds is entirely justified.


No, it just renders the more elite legios specific two wound terminators less cool, that's all it does. Healthbar 40k is what killed 8th.


The most popular moment the game had ever been up to that point killed it, yep. Totally

It sounds more like you are grumpy your parking lot lists don’t stomp any more.


8th 40K most popular? 8th saw the AOSification of 40K. Tanks shooting bullets from antenna straight through multiple terrain pieces at the opposition is one of it´s most infamous features. Coupled with stupid strategem gotcha mechanics turned it into a laughing stock of a tabletop game.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Strg Alt wrote:
8th 40K most popular? 8th saw the AOSification of 40K. Tanks shooting bullets from antenna straight through multiple terrain pieces at the opposition is one of it´s most infamous features. Coupled with stupid strategem gotcha mechanics turned it into a laughing stock of a tabletop game.

And? Just because you personally didn't like it doesn't mean 8th and 9th aren't massively popular games.
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

 Gert wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
8th 40K most popular? 8th saw the AOSification of 40K. Tanks shooting bullets from antenna straight through multiple terrain pieces at the opposition is one of it´s most infamous features. Coupled with stupid strategem gotcha mechanics turned it into a laughing stock of a tabletop game.

And? Just because you personally didn't like it doesn't mean 8th and 9th aren't massively popular games.


Same reason why general pop music is most popular, changes constantly and comes & goes in fads-sell to the lowest common denominator and biggest market=$$$$

GW is a model company first (now) that happens to have a game attached by their own admission. they do not care if the game side is popular/good as long as the models sell, given the brand recognition and market share they are selling loads of models even if you don't see it being played much in your area (almost nobody here plays 9th anymore, most of the former big 9th ed players have switched over to other games)




GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






It's just factually incorrect to say 8th was a dead game when all the evidence points to the contrary, and as much as 9th is in a pit of refuse it's still immensely popular.

HH 1 might chug on in smaller communities and individual friend groups but HH 2 has been well received by the wider community and that's not just because of the cheaper entry point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/13 13:58:42


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Just watched the following batrep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h60aGlqjTQ

Mechanicum vs. Death Guard HH 2.0

Interesting fact: MBT of Mechanicum (Krios) has a AP3 large blast with Breaching. So after gimping most of the legion´s blast templates you will have a rough day trying to reach the Martians´ line on foot. People´s fears about the Mechanicum were true as they are able to mass murder marines at range.
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just watched the following batrep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h60aGlqjTQ

Mechanicum vs. Death Guard HH 2.0

Interesting fact: MBT of Mechanicum (Krios) has a AP3 large blast with Breaching. So after gimping most of the legion´s blast templates you will have a rough day trying to reach the Martians´ line on foot. People´s fears about the Mechanicum were true as they are able to mass murder marines at range.

Interesting, I didn't notice that despite reading two different reviews of the Liber Mechanicum. I believe it should have been explicited more, it is indeed quite interesting to see !

   
Made in us
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge




Has my meta changed... well, I have opponents now. For 5 years the meta was very small, I mean it was mainly people who could use their 40k army in both 30k and 40k so Knights but really only the plastic knights and Armigers or custodies or militia using cadians. I was the only marine player. So now I have over 10 marine players. Possibly more!!! So I think that may be the best part!!!

[/sarcasm] 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Strg Alt wrote:
Just watched the following batrep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h60aGlqjTQ

Mechanicum vs. Death Guard HH 2.0

Interesting fact: MBT of Mechanicum (Krios) has a AP3 large blast with Breaching. So after gimping most of the legion´s blast templates you will have a rough day trying to reach the Martians´ line on foot. People´s fears about the Mechanicum were true as they are able to mass murder marines at range.


Josh's army was a hard counter for the death guard though.

not sure if they're fully OP or not, or this was just a big mismatch. I mean, that admech army looked kinda optimized anyways.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





I'm still waiting for the upgrade sprue for the heavy weapons box with the lascannons and autocannons. I do have a five-man squad of Marines with missile launchers, but that will be just to tide me over or if I'm low on points while making a list.

I am curious about why the rules were written so that the Mhara Gal reduces the strength of any Gal Vorbak or other Corrupted units within six inches. I can understand why they affect psykers, but why would their presence hurt other daemons?

Come here for all the best Warhammer and fandom AI-generated art: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerAI/ 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Yeah I need the MM/HF weapons so I feel for anyone in the same boat.

As for Mhara Gal, maybe that their connection to the material plane is so tenuous/unstable that they affect other daemons connections close by as well?
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

The Mhara Gal's affect on daemons/Corrupted units is explained in the fluff for it's Accursed ability:

A baleful vortex of empyreal forces is centered upon the accursed Mhara Gal, like a moving sinkhole on the face of reality incarnated into its twisted form, and the echoes of this tormenting force drive even its allies away from it in reeling horror. The radiations of fear and horror that the war machine generates are particularly abhorrent to psykers and even daemonkind, who must shun this warp abomination lest the black fire at its core consume thei soul stuff.


So, basically it's very presence can consume a daemon's "soul stuff".
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The Mhara Gal's affect on daemons/Corrupted units is explained in the fluff for it's Accursed ability:

A baleful vortex of empyreal forces is centered upon the accursed Mhara Gal, like a moving sinkhole on the face of reality incarnated into its twisted form, and the echoes of this tormenting force drive even its allies away from it in reeling horror. The radiations of fear and horror that the war machine generates are particularly abhorrent to psykers and even daemonkind, who must shun this warp abomination lest the black fire at its core consume thei soul stuff.


So, basically it's very presence can consume a daemon's "soul stuff".


Soul stuff?! A fine example for bad writing.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Yeah, they probably could have come up with a better term.
   
 
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