Switch Theme:

Chaos knights (un)intentional cheese?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




 p5freak wrote:
Btw, still nothing that could be considered useful from you to add to this rules discussion.


That depends entirely on your goal here. If your goal is to figure out the best way to handle a rule issue in real games then their comments are relevant and the question has been answered: no, they do not stack. If your goal is to treat rule arguments as some kind of weird e-sport then obviously pointing out "this is how it works in real games" is off-topic and should be ignored.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




It holds zero weight here, as you know full well. For obvious reasons

Specific ordering stuff doesn't work. Gw faqs it away if they can be bothered, ie it's not as ridiculous as this.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:


Its directly from GW, and has more weight than anything you say.

Btw, still nothing that could be considered useful from you to add to this rules discussion.


So I decided to click your email and noticed this:

2. Go Upstream. If re-reading the rule doesn’t provide an answer, read any other rules that relate to the rule in question (we call this ‘following the question upstream’). For example, if the rule modifies to hit rolls, re-read the rules for modifiers and the rules for hit rolls. More often than not you will find the answer you seek upstream. You may also find the answer to your question in the Rare Rules section found on page 360 of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.


Some time ago I asked in what order those statements were listed. As the email from GW indicates, the direction of the "stream" is important. If the order in which you quoted them is the order in which they were written, then you've answered your own question: you can't stack the two of them.

GW did not put a 'reflex' in its rules explanation because it assumed you read them from front to back. You know, upstream to downstream.

As a game designer, it is tedious in the extreme to write rules that flow in reverse and doing them that way makes them awkward and repetitive.

What you seem to be arguing is that because GW didn't write them that way, you can exploit this loophole. Again, as someone who has to deal with writing rules, this is deeply annoying. The intent of the rule is clear and I have to wonder why you're so insistent on this particular interpretation.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Look no further.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
The intent of the rule is clear and I have to wonder why you're so insistent on this particular interpretation.


I would of course not be rude enough to accuse anyone directly of doing this, but every forum like this has at least one person who treats rule debates as an e-sport where the goal is to "win" a defense of the most absurd possible interpretation of the rules. If you look at their posting history you'll see a clear pattern of them coming up with weird loopholes and exploits and misinterpretations of the text, defending them to the death long after everyone has agreed on a more reasonable interpretation that every real player in a real game would use, and then accusing everyone else of losing the e-sport by not being sufficiently dedicated to their specific form of hyper-literal RAW. There's no point in taking them seriously and the only way to get them to stop their disruptive behavior is to refuse to engage in the debate with them.

Again, not saying this applies to anyone specifically, just discussing general patterns I've seen before.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Btw, still nothing that could be considered useful from you to add to this rules discussion.


That depends entirely on your goal here. If your goal is to figure out the best way to handle a rule issue in real games then their comments are relevant and the question has been answered: no, they do not stack. If your goal is to treat rule arguments as some kind of weird e-sport then obviously pointing out "this is how it works in real games" is off-topic and should be ignored.


Exactly. It’s a forum about how to play the game. Would that more folk remembered that!

Eh, let him continue his ad hominems… at worst it paints his pretence at being earnest in an ever-worse light, and at best it’ll get him a site holiday faster. I don’t know why someone who’s caused so many thread locks is allowed to post.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 p5freak wrote:


Its directly from GW, and has more weight than anything you say.

Btw, still nothing that could be considered useful from you to add to this rules discussion.


So I decided to click your email and noticed this:

2. Go Upstream. If re-reading the rule doesn’t provide an answer, read any other rules that relate to the rule in question (we call this ‘following the question upstream’). For example, if the rule modifies to hit rolls, re-read the rules for modifiers and the rules for hit rolls. More often than not you will find the answer you seek upstream. You may also find the answer to your question in the Rare Rules section found on page 360 of the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.


Some time ago I asked in what order those statements were listed. As the email from GW indicates, the direction of the "stream" is important. If the order in which you quoted them is the order in which they were written, then you've answered your own question: you can't stack the two of them.

GW did not put a 'reflex' in its rules explanation because it assumed you read them from front to back. You know, upstream to downstream.

As a game designer, it is tedious in the extreme to write rules that flow in reverse and doing them that way makes them awkward and repetitive.

What you seem to be arguing is that because GW didn't write them that way, you can exploit this loophole. Again, as someone who has to deal with writing rules, this is deeply annoying. The intent of the rule is clear and I have to wonder why you're so insistent on this particular interpretation.

Bad news, the strategem is on page 68 and then the Favours are on page 70~73. Which is the order needed for a NURGLE TZEENTCH Knight.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Southern New Hampshire

Core Book, page 280 indicates that the last part of mustering your army is using stratagems to upgrade units:

Core Book, Page 280 wrote:
2. MUSTER ARMIES

paragraph
table
paragraph
in-set
...
If either player has access to any Stratagems that are used before the battle that upgrade any units, these must be used now and the details of the upgrades noted on the player's army roster. Each player must then provide a copy of the army roster for their opponent to read through.


There. Definitive proof that stratagems are used AFTER you've otherwise created your roster.

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






You all got led on by the OP using you to find a justification to use this "cheese" he/she/they thought they found.

Reread both rules and you will see that the conditions for using the rules are fulfilled at different times:
FotDG: "...when you are mustering your army."
CbtG: "...before the battle, when you are mustering your army."

"Before the battle" is a specific timing, which is after list creation and before any prebattle stratagem are applied, noted on list, and then shared. You don't get to cherry pick the phrase "when mustering your army" and say they occur at the same time.

FotDG is like how allegiance marks work for CSM - it's an "add keyword" upgrade taken at list building.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/12/30 19:27:16


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 skchsan wrote:
You all got led on by the OP using you to find a justification to use this "cheese" he/she/they thought they found.

Reread both rules and you will see that the conditions for using the rules are fulfilled at different times:
FotDG: "...when you are mustering your army."
CbtG: "...before the battle, when you are mustering your army."

"Before the battle" is a specific timing, which is after list creation and before any prebattle stratagem are applied, noted on list, and then shared. You don't get to cherry pick the phrase "when mustering your army" and say they occur at the same time.


Its you who makes up rules which dont exist. Both literally say when you are mustering your army, which is at the same time. Mustering armies is step 2, the battle begins at step 14. Step 2 is before 14.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Southern New Hampshire

 p5freak wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
You all got led on by the OP using you to find a justification to use this "cheese" he/she/they thought they found.

Reread both rules and you will see that the conditions for using the rules are fulfilled at different times:
FotDG: "...when you are mustering your army."
CbtG: "...before the battle, when you are mustering your army."

"Before the battle" is a specific timing, which is after list creation and before any prebattle stratagem are applied, noted on list, and then shared. You don't get to cherry pick the phrase "when mustering your army" and say they occur at the same time.


Its you who makes up rules which dont exist. Both literally say when you are mustering your army, which is at the same time. Mustering armies is step 2, the battle begins at step 14. Step 2 is before 14.


And I gave you the specific timing during Step 2 when you would need to use a stratagem.

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 p5freak wrote:
Its you who makes up rules which dont exist. Both literally say when you are mustering your army, which is at the same time. Mustering armies is step 2, the battle begins at step 14. Step 2 is before 14.


Each player must then select a Battle-forged army. The points limit of each player’s army, and the number of Command points (CPs) each player starts with when they begin mustering their army, are shown in the table below.

Details of how to Battle-forge an army, use a points limit, select a WARLORD and what information a player’s army roster must contain can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.
... A Battle-forged army has a pool of strategic resources called Command points (CPs) with which to purchase one or more Detachments, into which every unit in that army must be organised. Any CPs that a Battle-forged army has remaining after purchasing Detachments can be spent to utilise Stratagems

The order of operation for mustering army & applying stratagem is:
1. check if your matched play mission calls for battle forged army
2. if yes, determine the battle size which determines the points cap and CP gain
3. spend CP to buy detachments, and organize your army in those detachments without going over the point limit in order to create a battle forged army (def: An army organised so all its units are in Detachments)
4. remaining CP can be used for stratagems that grant upgrades to units.

Mustering an army is a process that necessarily involves checking your points/CP limit, spending CP to buy detachments, and organizing your army within the allowed composition of the detachment. Think of it as you need grocery (mission calls for battle forged army) so you went grocery shopping and put all the groceries in your basket (organizing your army), but you have to finalize by paying at the cashier (buying detachments). Then, stratagem upgrades are the candy bars you grab off the shelf next to the counter bought with your leftover changes which you then put into your basket after buying it. You're mistaking the basket ITSELF to be the thing you're paying CP for, likely because apps like battlescribe do just that - behave like an online shopping cart. Take a look at in from another angle - if you can't fulfill the composition requirements for a particular detachment, you can't buy it with CP (because otherwise its not battle forged and cannot be used in the missions requiring a battleforged army). You can't buy superheavy detachment with just two super heavies. Following, if fulfilling the composition requirements of a particular detachment would put you over the points limit, you can't buy that detachment for the same reason. Meaning, you have to determine how many points your army is and which battlefield roles you can fulfill prior to selecting a detachment to purchase.

FotDG is an upgrade that increases the point cost of the unit the upgrade is applied to so it must be resolved prior during list building as to confirm that your army can indeed be battle forged - the rule doesn't allow you to "save" the points you need to buy the upgrade after you applied a stratagem (i.e. "my army is worth 1950 points currently. Now I apply CbtG, and then I'm going to purchase a upgrade that cost me points, which will bring me up to 2000 points"). That's simply not how organizing your detachment works. Units' point values are not something you "spend" at various points of "mustering an army" (i.e. "I have 2000 points to spend on units"). It's a limitation on whose sum determines whether the army is legal or not.

In order to begin using leftover CP's to upgrade your units via stratagems, you first need to finish purchasing detachments that comprise your legal battleforged army, add any command benefits, and use the resulting difference to pay for these upgrades. If you are adding points to your army after you've applied upgrades via stratagem, then you have violated the order of operation pertaining to purchase of detachments to organize your army to create a legal battle forged army to play the mission.


This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2022/12/31 21:49:34


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I see no "order of operations" in step 2 muster armies. You made that up. There is no fixed sequence how, when, what i can do when mustering my army.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except there is. And it's been shown to you multiple times.

Another p5 thread. This should just die.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Southern New Hampshire

 p5freak wrote:
I see no "order of operations" in step 2 muster armies. You made that up. There is no fixed sequence how, when, what i can do when mustering my army.


I have to wonder if you defend these indefensible positions this strongly face-to-face, or if you can only do so behind the safety of a screen. Thankfully, I can do something here that I can't do in meatspace. ::mashes the 'ignore' button::

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except there is. And it's been shown to you multiple times.

Another p5 thread. This should just die.


All i have seen is self made up stuff, no citation. Some makes sense in skchans post, but i can still use FotDG as a step 5 in his "order of operations".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/31 14:55:46


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except there is. And it's been shown to you multiple times.

Another p5 thread. This should just die.


All i have seen is self made up stuff, no citation. Some makes sense in skchans post, but i can still use FotDG as a step 5 in his "order of operations".

The fact you can't understand the sequencing is a "you" problem

You don't have cp to spend until after your army is battle forged. This is stated above. How you plan to use strats before you have any CP to spend is, well, a piece of made up nonsense impressive even by your usual low standards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/31 17:26:58


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 p5freak wrote:
Some makes sense in skchsans post
My job here is complete.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except there is. And it's been shown to you multiple times.

Another p5 thread. This should just die.


All i have seen is self made up stuff, no citation. Some makes sense in skchans post, but i can still use FotDG as a step 5 in his "order of operations".

The fact you can't understand the sequencing is a "you" problem

You don't have cp to spend until after your army is battle forged. This is stated above. How you plan to use strats before you have any CP to spend is, well, a piece of made up nonsense impressive even by your usual low standards.


CPs are gained during the mustering your army step, they are gained right after choosing the battle size. You must have CP before paying for detachments, because detachments costs CP. Without CP no detachments, without detachments no battle forged army. You then fill those detachments with units, then you use stratagems to upgrade units, and then you use FotDG.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As was pointed out, but you're oblivious to, you don't get to spend cp on strats until after your army is battleforged. Which is after you've spent points.

Still a you problem. Yet again.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

All that was pointed out to me was self made up stuff. There is nothing in the rules saying that i cant spend points after using stratagems.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Nothing says you can do so, either.

The rules state how to spend points on strats, which is after you've made your army battleforged. That's after you've already spent all the points you can spend.

Stop breaking rules, and continuing this thread. End.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
All that was pointed out to me was self made up stuff. There is nothing in the rules saying that i cant spend points after using stratagems.
"'The rules don't say I can't!'
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else." From the "How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate" article found here on Dakka: https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

The rules system is permissive, you need to have a rule that says you can.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Any CPs that a Battle-forged army has remaining after purchasing Detachments can be spent to utilise Stratagems - each of which represents a strategic or tactical asset available to your army.


To include a particular Detachment in your army, you must first spend a number of CPs equal to that Detachment’s Command Cost. If you do not have enough CPs for a specific Detachment, you cannot include it in your army. Then, you simply organise some or all of the units in your army so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed for that Detachment.



So, you spend points on all of the units in your army, then buy detachments and while buying detachments fill them with the units you spent points on.

Only after buying all of your detachments can you spend CP on stratagems. Therefore, you can only spend CP on stratagems after buying all of the units in your army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/01 23:15:31


I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame
https://www.youtube.com/@makethatgame
And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

The rules system is permissive, you need to have a rule that says you can.


FotDG says i can upgrade one unit when mustering my army. There is your permission. It doesnt say before or after stratagems have been used, so i can choose any point in time when mustering my army.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The rules system is permissive, you need to have a rule that says you can.


FotDG says i can upgrade one unit when mustering my army. There is your permission. It doesnt say before or after stratagems have been used, so i can choose any point in time when mustering my army.
That is not what that says. You have to take all of the rules into account. Rihgu has the breakdown.

You also don't get to spend cp on strats until after your army is battleforged. Which is after you've spent points.

You can not do what you are trying to do.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: