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I guess knights but knights don't belong in 40k anyway IMHO

 Blndmage wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Don’t you have a social obligation to be polite?

Small PL 40k games work.

Sometimes work for some factions. Some factions are already petering out at 2K, while some can't even get going under 1500 or so. The faction you're playing is going to heavily influence whether smaller games work.

What factions don't work at 1,500 and lower?

The lower it goes, the more factions run into more trouble. Knights and Custodes are the obvious ones that can run out of points before they get up and going. I think they even said Knights weren't designed for below a certain point total. A knight army that doesn't have bodies = Half +1 Objective are already looking uphill.

Breton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Don’t you have a social obligation to be polite?

Small PL 40k games work.

Sometimes work for some factions. Some factions are already petering out at 2K, while some can't even get going under 1500 or so. The faction you're playing is going to heavily influence whether smaller games work.

What factions don't work at 1,500 and lower?

The lower it goes, the more factions run into more trouble. Knights and Custodes are the obvious ones that can run out of points before they get up and going. I think they even said Knights weren't designed for below a certain point total. A knight army that doesn't have bodies = Half +1 Objective are already looking uphill.

I play 25PL games vs Custodes frequently, and they're tough, but not unbeatable.

Knights maybe but again knights barely belong in 40k let alone lower point 40k outside of specific scenarios

 Blndmage wrote:


I play 25PL games vs Custodes frequently, and they're tough, but not unbeatable.

36PL is a Shield Captain on a bike, 5 Allarus Custodians, and 3 Vertus Praetors. Also I was referring to "up and running" not necessarily "good". By "up and running" I meant doing their fluffy thing, being emblematic of their (sub)faction. 2-3 units and an HQ isn't enough for anyone to iconically be their (sub)faction. The smaller the game, the harder it is for high PPM armies to get that thematic thing going.

Breton wrote:
36PL is a Shield Captain on a bike, 5 Allarus Custodians, and 3 Vertus Praetors.

Wow. Talk about not reading the room.

Maybe you are not supposed to take those units to a 25PL Combat Patrol? I can assure you that Custodes have other units that fit within 25 PL that will do just fine in that format. It's not like you need the maneuverability of Jet Bikes on a Combat Patrol battlefield.

Breton wrote:
Also I was referring to "up and running" not necessarily "good". By "up and running" I meant doing their fluffy thing, being emblematic of their (sub)faction. 2-3 units and an HQ isn't enough for anyone to iconically be their (sub)faction. The smaller the game, the harder it is for high PPM armies to get that thematic thing going.

I don't think that holds up for all high ppm armies. In some cases, the opposite is kind of true. My main army is Iybraesil. If my entire army in a 25PL game is 4 units and half of them are howling banshees, then I'm definitely leaning into Iybraesil's strong reliance on banshees. And having half my units be banshees is a lot easier/more viable in smaller games than in larger ones where the rule of 3 and the need to deal with lots of big enemy guns get in the way. Similarly, my Alpha Legion (using Death Watch or Raven Guard rules depending on the day) feel much more in their element launching a "sneak attack" against an enemy combat patrol rather than sprinting towards an enemy artillery line.

I could see armies that favor mechanized warfare or the use of expensive monsters and vehicles might have a bit more trouble strutting their stuff in low points games, but it doesn't strike me as a universal thing.

 alextroy wrote:

Breton wrote:
36PL is a Shield Captain on a bike, 5 Allarus Custodians, and 3 Vertus Praetors.

Wow. Talk about not reading the room.

Maybe you are not supposed to take those units to a 25PL Combat Patrol? I can assure you that Custodes have other units that fit within 25 PL that will do just fine in that format. It's not like you need the maneuverability of Jet Bikes on a Combat Patrol battlefield.

Talk about not reading the posts, let alone the room: Yet again: I didn't say good. I said emblematic/iconic/thematic/etc - or what I called "up and running".

The Adeptus Custodes are not famous for their jetbikes. They are famous for the not-so-humble Custodian Guard. Captains on Jetbikes and Vertus Praetors are regularly used because they are very effective, not because they are the iconic units.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Breton wrote:
Also I was referring to "up and running" not necessarily "good". By "up and running" I meant doing their fluffy thing, being emblematic of their (sub)faction. 2-3 units and an HQ isn't enough for anyone to iconically be their (sub)faction. The smaller the game, the harder it is for high PPM armies to get that thematic thing going.

I don't think that holds up for all high ppm armies. In some cases, the opposite is kind of true. My main army is Iybraesil. If my entire army in a 25PL game is 4 units and half of them are howling banshees, then I'm definitely leaning into Iybraesil's strong reliance on banshees. And having half my units be banshees is a lot easier/more viable in smaller games than in larger ones where the rule of 3 and the need to deal with lots of big enemy guns get in the way. Similarly, my Alpha Legion (using Death Watch or Raven Guard rules depending on the day) feel much more in their element launching a "sneak attack" against an enemy combat patrol rather than sprinting towards an enemy artillery line.

I could see armies that favor mechanized warfare or the use of expensive monsters and vehicles might have a bit more trouble strutting their stuff in low points games, but it doesn't strike me as a universal thing.

Howling Banshee are not really high PPM. They're the "high-priced" Elite Unit for similar PPM as the "basic" space marine. The basic troop Guardian is roughly half the points of a SM basic troop, and SM are one of the lowest PPM of what I'd call "high PPM" - though some Aeldari subfactions can do it when their lean-into units are sufficiently higher than average.

I mean even if you don't do full Demi-Company - The generic SM Chapter Generic/Iconic Mixed Arms First Born Force - 1 Chap/Cap, 1 LT, 10 Tacs, 10 Ass, 10 Dev are 41 PL. - the Full Demi Company is 61.

Iyanden with two Wraith- blade (and/or) guard units? that starts at 20 PL, before you get the HQ and Troops, add the Wraithlord and its 28. Even Saim-Hann Wind riders have it easier.

DeffKoptas are PL 8, and I'd say that's about where the line is. At PL 6 or less you can generally have two iconic units, and an HQ+ Troops. At 7+ it gets difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
The Adeptus Custodes are not famous for their jetbikes. They are famous for the not-so-humble Custodian Guard. Captains on Jetbikes and Vertus Praetors are regularly used because they are very effective, not because they are the iconic units.

The Jetbikes and the Terminators get special rules for ObSec, just like Ravenwing Bikes and Deathwing Terminators. I don't follow the Custodes so I'll take your word for it, but the rule books really imply that's their iconic look.

Edit to add: Tried to search "iconic Custodes forces" and didn't get much beyond news they're getting (and already got a while ago) a Battleforce. The only things in the battleforce that wasn't their Troop or HQ unit was the bikes and Terminators - admittedly they're pretty short on datasheet variety. And - 3 Terminators plus a min unit of Jetbikes are still 21 PL before you add the HQ and/or Troops.

My friend runs this list:

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [24 PL, 1CP, 485pts] ++

Configuration +
Battle Size [3CP]: 1. Combat Patrol (0-50 Total PL / 0-500 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Aquilan Shield

Game Type: Open

HQ +
Shield-Captain [7 PL, -1CP, 130pts]: (Aquilan Shield): Praesidius, (Aquilan Shield): Revered Companion, 3. Superior Creation, Stratagem: Victor of the Blood Games, Swift as the Eagle, Warlord . Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: Praesidium Shield, Sentinel Blade

Troops +
Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 250pts] . 5x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield

Elites +
Vexilus Praetor [6 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: 4. Impregnable Mind, Misericordia, Praesidium Shield, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes, Vexilla Imperius

++ Total: [24 PL, 1CP, 485pts] ++

It's a tough list to fight.

 Blndmage wrote:


It's a tough list to fight.

Yeah, that's kind of proving my point - Beyond the bare minimum 1HQ, 1 Troop there's room for only one "option" to lean into any sort of flavor/theme iconic to the (sub)faction.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
In the past, I've really enjoyed 40k variants with smaller armies be they Zone Mortalis, 7th edition's Combat Patrol, or even just smaller games of 40k. Boarding Action sounds really cool, but I haven't been able to get my hands on the book for it yet.

For those of you who also enjoy smaller games, what's your preferred set of rules for games involving a handful of squads?

Old kill teams/combat patrol circa 4th edition.
.5-12 models
.experience progression
.wound chart (wounds carry over to the next game I.E. chest wound=-1 toughness, leg wound=-1" movement etc...)
.no named characters, monsterous creatures or flyers
.no vehicles with an armor above 33
.3 models in your team can have a special skill as long as it does not change the unit type or weapon performance(move through cover, relentless, feel no pain etc..)

I had fun with the Fantasy version. I did a Steam Tank and some Free Company - but at a certain point you kind of have to say that's not 40K, its Kill Teams Prequel Episode 2 or some such.

Breton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:


It's a tough list to fight.

Yeah, that's kind of proving my point - Beyond the bare minimum 1HQ, 1 Troop there's room for only one "option" to lean into any sort of flavor/theme iconic to the (sub)faction.

I'm not sure you're quite understanding the faction here, but custodes forces fluff for the vast bulk of their subfactions are built off the back of custodian guard to one degree or the other. The HQ and the troops here are very representative of what that army is about, moreover they could have taken the guardians in a unit of 3 iirc and freed up points to swap out the vexilla but have made a choice to follow a theme of the rank and file heralds of the Emperor type force

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:


It's a tough list to fight.

Yeah, that's kind of proving my point - Beyond the bare minimum 1HQ, 1 Troop there's room for only one "option" to lean into any sort of flavor/theme iconic to the (sub)faction.

I'm not sure you're quite understanding the faction here, but custodes forces fluff for the vast bulk of their subfactions are built off the back of custodian guard to one degree or the other. The HQ and the troops here are very representative of what that army is about, moreover they could have taken the guardians in a unit of 3 iirc and freed up points to swap out the vexilla but have made a choice to follow a theme of the rank and file heralds of the Emperor type force

1 "Main HQ" and 1 "Main Troops" is (almost) always going to be representative of any (sub)Faction, but that's not really "up and running" - it's fairly cookie cutter for all factions. A Farseer and Guardians is... nobody and everybody. Add in some Wraithguard and it's Iyanden. Add in some Vypers and Windriders and it's Saim-Hann. Captain and Tac Squad. Add an assault squad and a Dev Squad, maybe you have UM. Add in Terminators and it could be Dark Angels. Add in some Bikes it could be White Scars. Add in some Vanguard Vets and you could have Blood Angels. Warboss and Boyz, add in some buggies and you could have Evil Sunz. Add in some Lootas and maybe you have Deathskulls.

And you're right, I don't follow the Custodes fluff much - I'm assuming this group or that group leans into Land Raiders and Dreads or Terminators and Bikes. Maybe one leans into Silence and Rhinos. The stuff beyond the the basic HQ and Troop Unit that is (relatively) special and unique to that (sub)faction. Custodes don't have a lot of options so they may not have a lot of subfaction flavor, but even their faction flavor beyond HQ + Troop is Best Terminators and (Almost) Only Imperium Jet Bikes.