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chaos0xomega wrote: Oddly, that rationale doesn't make much sense. Hedonism can be expressed via sadism, and what could be more sadistic than wiping out an entire species to extinction, just because you can?
And that's why all the other Chaos Gods don't really like Slaanesh - any excess they lean into can also be belief for Slaanesh.
That said don't forget that Eldar are famous for their hubris, even in the 41st millennium. Even before the fall chances are they never thought humans would ever amount to an actual serious threat. Eldar were THE power in the Galaxy at that time. They'd fought off the Necrons; they'd tamed the Webway. They had a full pantheon of Gods behind them and they were simply superior on every front. They had a huge empire, robots and machines to do their every bidding (even war) and no reason to have any fear.
So what if humans were building a bit of an empire, if it ever got big enough to be an annoyance the Eldar could crush it for fun. Indeed some might have wanted to wait for when the humans would have put up a more "sporting fight" before being obliterated. Meanwhile those who were drifting from the more extreme Eldar of that era, were fleeing to the rim (which is why the Exodites were able to somewhat survive the fall as a faction).
It's important to remember that Eldar had whole planets as palaces; they were not locked down in a cold war nor a real war on multiple fronts. They were in a vastly more powerful position than the Imperium of Man is in the 41st era.
The Fall of the Eldar was also unexpected and mindbogglingly instant for the sheer scale of how much it destroyed them.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
DAoT humanity rivalled the Eldar in power. It is likely they couldn't wipe out humanity, nor was there any need to.
Mankind was disunified, but if the Eldar began wiping mankind out that would unify them real quick. Sure, the Eldar might have had technically more advanced technology, in practical terms the playing field was even.
DAoT humanity could extinguish stars, create black holes, and had other similarly powerful technology. Maybe they couldn't fully beat the Eldar, but they could destroy far more than the casual cruelty of wiping a species out would be worth.
Plus whats better? Wiping out a species "For the Lulz" on the risk that they get angry, unify, and come after you with horrifically advanced weaponry equal to your own OR just casually raiding them for slaves indefinitely?
If you want the rush of wiping out a sentient species you can just go find some random alien species somewhere and kill them with no risk. Humanity is better as an unlimited source of general amusment, not a grand scale murder target "just because".
Plus not all the hedonists in the Eldar empire would be xenocidal murderhobos. But it would take all of them to even think about wiping out humanity. So it would be a minority goal even in the best case scenario.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/29 21:57:32
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
It's a lot of effort though, and personal pleasure came first for the pre-Fall Aeldari.
Why get caught in a protracted conflict when you can send out raiding parties to bring back slaves instead? It's less manpower intensive and its fun as well.
A war means masses of troops and the effort to destroy a race isn't just the drop of a hat even for the Aeldari at the height of their power.
What if the other races unit against them?
How could they have all their raves and torture parties if there was a war to think about?
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
That's not true at all. North Korea has nuclear capability. The US has nuclear capability. But if there was a conflict, there's a very clear winner. Not only that, but it's well within the possibility that it could be "trivial" (in a purely kinetic sense, political consequences aside).
Isolated technological capability is very different than the potential breadth of available resources.
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
That's not true at all. North Korea has nuclear capability. The US has nuclear capability. But if there was a conflict, there's a very clear winner. Not only that, but it's well within the possibility that it could be "trivial" (in a purely kinetic sense, political consequences aside).
Isolated technological capability is very different than the potential breadth of available resources.
Thats a bad comparison. DAoT mankind is not to the Eldar what NK is to the US in terms of nuclear capability.
I would say a better comparison would be France to Russia. Yes, Russia could obliterate France. France would however have more than enough nukes to destroy all Russian population centers so its not worth it. In the same way, its not worth it for the Eldar to destroy DAoT humanity. It would ruin them.
North Korea has nuclear capability only in the most rudimentary fashion. There was nothing rudimentary about the DAoT humanity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/30 03:36:34
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
The DAOT humans couldn't enter the Webway, that was why the Golden Throne project was such a big deal. Pre-Fall Eldar were monstrously powerful psykers who could exist in a dimension humanity couldn't touch and strike basically anywhere from that dimension. I think it is highly unlikely humanity at its peak would have been able to survive a determined war of extermination with the contemporaneous Eldar civilisation, and the Eldar probably would have not suffered much for it.
There is a reason the Necrons went into hiding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/30 13:02:29
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
And Necrons had insanely powerful planet and sun destroying tech and more as well. Eldar at their height were unchallenged in the Galaxy. They didn't sprawl huge population centres over every planet they could like humans do, but the Eldar were masters.
If they will it, it was so. Also don't forget that Pre-Fall the Eldar were more than happy to use robots for everything. They wouldn't even have to risk their own lives on the battlefield unless they wanted too. They could have shifted production into overdrive and built vast armies whilst at the same time using the webway to surgically strike at the humans.
A really big gun is useless if you can't find a target and a huge risk if the foe you fight against is more than capable of manipulating you into shooting yourself in the foot with said weapon.
Without the Fall chances are the Eldar would have come for humanity at some point. With the fall they left a huge powervoid in the Galaxy which humanity was able to exploit to expand into
I think narcissism would have been strong attribute of the pre fall eldar that had been corrupted by excess. They werent going to club together to go on a crusade against humans who were at the top of their game.
Why bother when you can go next door and eat your neighbours
They were not fools at the height of their fall. Remember for Eldar excess is super easy for them but its not just pleasure or pain or such; almost anything into excess is possible for them. Which is why Slaanesh has no real focus just the purity of excess in any and all forms.
So the Eldar could well have united (even if just long enough to eliminate the threat) and indulged in the excess of war.
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
The DAOT humans couldn't enter the Webway, that was why the Golden Throne project was such a big deal. Pre-Fall Eldar were monstrously powerful psykers who could exist in a dimension humanity couldn't touch and strike basically anywhere from that dimension. I think it is highly unlikely humanity at its peak would have been able to survive a determined war of extermination with the contemporaneous Eldar civilisation, and the Eldar probably would have not suffered much for it.
There is a reason the Necrons went into hiding.
Yes, the Eldar could hit and run with impunity from the Webway. But they still had planets. You can't move or hide planets trivially, and nothing is going to protect a planet from having its star blown up or a black hole generated on top of it.
Mankind could have done serious damage. Maybe not win, but definitely do a lot of damage. It would not have been a one-sided affair. And for the people at the top it would have been risky. Why risk your peak civilization just to exterminate technically weaker, but still hideously strong, opponents?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/01 00:13:36
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
The DAOT humans couldn't enter the Webway, that was why the Golden Throne project was such a big deal. Pre-Fall Eldar were monstrously powerful psykers who could exist in a dimension humanity couldn't touch and strike basically anywhere from that dimension. I think it is highly unlikely humanity at its peak would have been able to survive a determined war of extermination with the contemporaneous Eldar civilisation, and the Eldar probably would have not suffered much for it.
There is a reason the Necrons went into hiding.
Yes, the Eldar could hit and run with impunity from the Webway. But they still had planets. You can't move or hide planets trivially, and nothing is going to protect a planet from having its star blown up or a black hole generated on top of it.
Mankind could have done serious damage. Maybe not win, but definitely do a lot of damage. It would not have been a one-sided affair. And for the people at the top it would have been risky. Why risk your peak civilization just to exterminate technically weaker, but still hideously strong, opponents?
Do you know what it would have taken to deploy a human sun-killer weapon? Because it's quite possible that it would never have achance to deploy.
Imagine a nuclear weapon, capable of destroying a city, but having no way to get it to the target without being intercepted and destroyed.
According to what? Iirc the Eldar at their height were peerless.
When both civilizations can create/destroy stars and blackholes it is difficult to say they are not at least on the same power level in an actual conflict.
Even if the Eldar are "more powerful", its not really a clean thing to say they could trivially destroy humanity when humanity is capable of doing some hideously powerful things as well.
The DAOT humans couldn't enter the Webway, that was why the Golden Throne project was such a big deal. Pre-Fall Eldar were monstrously powerful psykers who could exist in a dimension humanity couldn't touch and strike basically anywhere from that dimension. I think it is highly unlikely humanity at its peak would have been able to survive a determined war of extermination with the contemporaneous Eldar civilisation, and the Eldar probably would have not suffered much for it.
There is a reason the Necrons went into hiding.
Yes, the Eldar could hit and run with impunity from the Webway. But they still had planets. You can't move or hide planets trivially, and nothing is going to protect a planet from having its star blown up or a black hole generated on top of it.
Mankind could have done serious damage. Maybe not win, but definitely do a lot of damage. It would not have been a one-sided affair. And for the people at the top it would have been risky. Why risk your peak civilization just to exterminate technically weaker, but still hideously strong, opponents?
Do you know what it would have taken to deploy a human sun-killer weapon? Because it's quite possible that it would never have achance to deploy.
Imagine a nuclear weapon, capable of destroying a city, but having no way to get it to the target without being intercepted and destroyed.
Or fighting against a race who can predict the future who can potentially look far enough that they can attack and secure resource deposits in specific space sectors that deny you the resources that you would need to build the sunkiller for that sector of space. Suddenly you don't have the resources to build one so you never actually have one to use. You don't realise this because the Eldar conducted those raids before you even thought of building your sun killer.
If Eldar go to war and they've no fear of the Warp they can use such methods with impunity.
How can you fight a race who can not only predict your major movements; but also attack from the Webway and escape into it. Who can strike at leaders, generals, key infrastructure and hit very deep into your boarders. Eldar with a functional Webway and no warp fear and a large active population can destroy any notion of you having a "front line" against them. You can't build a wall of spaceships to shield you.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Given that the Eldar were 99.99% wiped out by partying too hard, I would not put great stock in their ability to predict the future prior to the Fall and only slightly more after it.
The Eldar get hyped up way too much. Their future prediction abilities are honestly kinda trash. Most of the time they get shown in the fluff it backfires or doesn't work. The Eldar are objectively bad at predicting the future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/02 14:49:21
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I was working on a project involving obscure lore, and found that Necromunda had the so called Grey Men. I lost my notes what on they are, but they were part of an Old Necromunda Supplement.
Segersgia wrote:I was working on a project involving obscure lore, and found that Necromunda had the so called Grey Men. I lost my notes what on they are, but they were part of an Old Necromunda Supplement.
JNAProductions wrote:I believe it's when someone fields an unpainted Xenos army.
’The Greys’ are ’Type 2 EBEs’ officially.
On the subject of why the Eldar didn't swat the imperium thing; i was under the impression that the Eldar knew they and humanity were a creation of the ’old ones’ given psychic ability so they could effectively fight the C’tan and their Necron footsoldiers on the ’old ones’ behalf.
If that's true they would see ’Oomies as the next project of ’the old ones’ that needed to evolve their psychic potential instead of being born with it already enabled.
Perhaps they see humanity as "the mentally deficient cousin" species who just needs some time to grow up a bit and develop their full psychic potential with the big E holding their hand - eventually coming to a peaceful unity with the eldar along with a quiet apology about being such psychotic weirdos in the past. The eldar (elder?) species would have to recognise that they weren’t perfect either - proven by their own fall from grace and the fact they failed in their primary purpose; to protect the ’old ones’.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
The eldar (elder?) species would have to recognise that they weren’t perfect either - proven by their own fall from grace and the fact they failed in their primary purpose; to protect the ’old ones’.
The eldar hadn't "fallen from grace" at that point in time. They also presumably didn't think that the old ones were dead given that their pantheon (which seems to be related to the old ones in some way) was "alive" and well up until Slaanesh gobbled them up.
But the idea that the eldar pantheon/old ones might somehow have discouraged the eldar from wiping out the orks and humans is an interesting thought. We know the eldar kept the threat of the necrons in the back of their mind well enough to start trying to attack tomb worlds post-fall. So being reluctant to throw away weapons created to fight the 'crons (in the forms of orks and "failed" projects like humanity) might make sense. Like, regardless of whether or not pre DAoT humanity could pose a real threat to the eldar (probably not), there was still a period of time where humanity was absolutely easy pickings for the eldar and yet went unpicked. Maybe they were hoping humanity was on track to eventually develop into a weapon that could be used against the 'crons. Heck, given that the Emperor exists and that his goal (sometimes) seems to be helping humanity evolve to be more like him, they might even have been right.
Maybe the Emperor is an example of what the Old Ones were hoping humanity would become. That even sort of fits into the different "soul behaviors" we see in uplifted species.
Orks: One gestalt soul (the Waagh) spread across lots of bodies.
Eldar: Individual powerful souls. We had a thread a while back theorizing that eldar reincarnation was basically a mechanism for leveling-up their psychic abilities over time.
Humans: Lots of bodies that eventually start doing the fusion dance to produce super duper powerful Emperor-style souls?
As for alien grays... I actually sorta kinda have a real answer. Did you know that "little gray men" is actually a misquote from the "Hopkinsville Goblins Incident"? The people involved actually described small green humanoids that they even described as goblin-like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly%E2%80%93Hopkinsville_encounter
So uh. Yes. The "alien greys" in 40k are ork grots.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
"all officials appeared to agree that there was no drinking involved"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Yes and no. They were around when the emperor was conquering the galaxy, but were systematically eradicated because they are Xenos. One of the Beast Arises books mentions it. I believe the first book?
They live in Andromeda.
