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U02dah4 wrote:
Most actions as long as it doesn't specify infantry or character


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

IloveIceTea wrote:
A drop pod can be eligible to charge. It can make a charge roll. But it cannot move. It can trigger rules which activate when a unit is eligible to charge, or when it made a charge roll.

Can you tell me the Melee attack of a Drop pod in 10th?

It doesn't have one but how is that relevant It is the same if it is charged it can't make attacks in melee but it can be hit.

There are plenty of models with no melee they can still charge its not a requirement


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
As others have said, Drop Pods have a Move of “-“, which includes a special rule that it cannot move at all. Charging is made via a Charge move which involves moving a model. Therefore a Drop Pod cannot charge. QED.

"Charge move" causes you to move it Is not a "move" it does not derive from the "Move stat". therefore move stat of - has no bearing in the same way that deployment counts as moving but is not a move a "charge move" is not a move

From core rules move is defined "When a unit moves it can make a Normal move, Advance or
Remain Stationary."

A "charge move" is not on that list, you cannot advance during a "charge move" or fall back during a charge move therefore it is not a "move"

Core Rules wrote:Move (M): This is the speed at which a model moves across the battlefield. If a model has a Move of ‘-’ it is unable to move at all.

Note that it doesn't say "Is unable to make Normal Moves, Advance Moves, or Fallback Moves."
It says "unable to move at all."

That's not using a keyword. So you use the dictionary definition.

I'm not convinced U02 is arguing in good faith regarding the charging Drop Pod.

Many people are not making good faith arguments Fezzik does not argue in good faith hes a troll. While noone makeing arguments of the I would throw my toys out the pram/ make my opponent eat their drop pod/refuse to play are makeing good faith argument its just doubling doelwn on being unable to show their point. I mean theres no reference to the rules text in 90% of the posts. As with many of these arguments the - argument is irrelevant what we are really arguing about is does a charge move count as a move and by the core rules text it doesn't as cited earlier the only counter presented so far has been someone citing dictionary definition. Which I ignored largely because the dictionary doesn't define rules terms and so doesnt overrule what is written in the core rules a move is a normal move fallback or advance.

I have throughout made a good faith argument and clearly referenced my evidence

I stand by what I said throughout by RAW charge move is not a move therefore the unable to move at all line doesn't apply to it just like deployment. That is the only cited RAW to date

I have also stated as I did earlier when I said there was nothing more to add that it was likely not the RAI

I stand by both statements and have supported both

I think the RAW is badly written but if you want a complete answer grounded in the rules that's it

U02dah4 wrote:
Many people are not making good faith arguments Fezzik does not argue in good faith hes a troll. While noone makeing arguments of the I would throw my toys out the pram/ make my opponent eat their drop pod/refuse to play are makeing good faith argument. I mean theres no reference to the rules text in 90% of the posts

I have throughout made a good faith argument and clearly referenced my evidence

I stand by what I said throughout by RAW charge move is not a move therefore the unable to move at all line doesn't apply to it just like deployment. That is the RAW.

I have also stated as I did earlier when I said there was nothing more to add that it was likely not the RAI

I stand by both statements and have supported both

I think the RAW is badly written but if you want a complete answer grounded in the rules that's it

What does "unable to move at all" mean in common English?
And what part of "unable to move at all" references specific 40k mechanics and/or rules terminology?

That I would be unable to place it on the battlefield, move it across the battlefield, alter its position or remove it from the battlefield at any time in any way. If placed in reserve it must stay there permanently and may not even leave the box/storage tray as that would involve moving it. It would also rule out self propulsion.

Luckily the common English definition is irrelevant as far as core rules go they define move as normal move advance or fallback and strangely I can't find a dictionary definition of move that uses the word "fallback"

As to your second question "unable to move at all" references the specific 40k mechanic of "move" it's the third word in the sequence and kind of the crux of this whole argument.

You'll find it as a bullet pointed rule on pg 13 of the core rules (movement phase)

■ When a unit moves it can make a Normal move, Advance or
Remain Stationary.
■ Units that are within Engagement Range of any enemy
models can only Fall Back or Remain Stationary

EDIT : A charge move is a move, a drop pod cannot charge.

U02dah4 wrote:
That I would be unable to place it on the battlefield, move it across the battlefield, alter its position or remove it from the battlefield at any time in any way. If placed in reserve it must stay there permanently and may not even leave the box/storage tray as that would involve moving it. It would also rule out self propulsion.

Luckily the common English definition is irrelevant as far as core rules go they define move as normal move advance or fallback and strangely I can't find a dictionary definition of move that uses the word "fallback"

As to your second question "unable to move at all" references the specific 40k mechanic of "move" it's the third word in the sequence and kind of the crux of this whole argument.

You'll find it as a bullet pointed rule on pg 13 of the core rules (movement phase)

■ When a unit moves it can make a Normal move, Advance or
Remain Stationary.
■ Units that are within Engagement Range of any enemy
models can only Fall Back or Remain Stationary

That is only laying out the possible move options available in the Movement phase and is not comprehensive of what counts as moving in the rest of the game.

And, regarding the inane argument that not being able to move would prevent a model from being set up during the Reinforcements step, I will remind you that 'counting as having made a Normal move' does not equal 'having actually moved'.

Edit to Add: The Rules Commentary defines a Charge move as a "Move made in the Charge phase".

Hey, I'm not a troll, I'm an idiot. Get your facts straight.

U02dah4 wrote:
That I would be unable to place it on the battlefield, move it across the battlefield, alter its position or remove it from the battlefield at any time in any way. If placed in reserve it must stay there permanently and may not even leave the box/storage tray as that would involve moving it. It would also rule out self propulsion.

Luckily the common English definition is irrelevant as far as core rules go they define move as normal move advance or fallback and strangely I can't find a dictionary definition of move that uses the word "fallback"

As to your second question "unable to move at all" references the specific 40k mechanic of "move" it's the third word in the sequence and kind of the crux of this whole argument.

You'll find it as a bullet pointed rule on pg 13 of the core rules (movement phase)

■ When a unit moves it can make a Normal move, Advance or
Remain Stationary.
■ Units that are within Engagement Range of any enemy
models can only Fall Back or Remain Stationary

You are incorrect in multiple points here.

First off, Charge move is referenced multiple times in the rules as is Pile-In move and Consolidation move. What are these? According to the Rules Commentary (red emphasis added):

Charge Move: Move made in the Charge phase as part of a successful charge.

Consolidation Move: A 3" move that, if made, must see that unit end within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units and in Unit Coherency, or, if this is not possible, within range of the closest objective marker and in Unit Coherency. If a unit is able to end a Consolidation move within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units, each model that makes a Consolidation move must end closer to the closest enemy model, and in base-to-base contact with it if possible. Models that are already in base-to-base contact are not moved. If a rule modifies the distance a unit can Consolidate, it modifies the Consolidation move that every model in that unit can make.

Pile-in Move: A 3" move that, if made, must result in the unit being in Unit Coherency and within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. Each model that makes a Pile-in move must end closer to the closest enemy model, and in base-to-base contact with it if possible. Models that are already in base-to-base contact are not moved. If a rule modifies the distance a unit can Pile-in, it modifies the Pile-in move that every model in that unit can make.

You will note that all three definitions have the word move as one of the first 3 words of the definition. You will also note that move is not defined in the Core Rules nor the Rules Commentary.

As for Deep Striking your Movement '-' Drop Pod, that isn't a problem thanks that good old Rules Commentary (red emphasis added).

Count as Having Made a Normal Move: Reserves units always count as having made a Normal move in the turn they are set up on the battlefield. This is simply to clarify that they cannot move further in this phase but have not Remained Stationary; such units have not made a Normal move, however, so their arrival cannot trigger Stratagems or abilities that are used after a unit makes a Normal move.

Similarly, a unit that disembarks from a Transport that made a Normal move this phase also counts as having made a Normal move, but has not made a Normal move, so such a unit’s arrival cannot trigger Stratagems or abilities that are used after a unit makes a Normal move (see Embarked Units and Reserves).

So I think we have covered this pretty well. Drop Pods cannot make Charge moves as they cannot move.

I will note that barring a specific datasheet rule, units with a Move Characteristic of '-' may declare charges as the charge rules do not forbid it. They just always fail the charge because they are forbidden to move.

Move (M): This is the speed at which a model moves across the battlefield. If a model has a Move of ‘-’ it is unable to move at all.

Again we are arguing about what constitutes a move which is defined in the movement phase as normal move advance remaining Stationary or falling back you haven't disproved that

Charge moves, consolidate moves and pile in moves are rules that result in models "moving" but are not mechanically moves as defined in the movement phase I cannot consolidate and advance I cannot pile in and fallback they don't involve the move stat as in the speed a model can move across the battlefield, a model with 6" move does not pile in less than a model with 12" the movement stat has no bearing on these. So yes their rules utilise the word move and no it doesn't disprove my argument because my argument is they are rules that result in moves they are not moves

I do also make one last point under my definition it can't be selected to move therefore you don't get to select normal move fallback back advance or Remain Stationary etc. If your definition is about move as in distance on the table top do you not get yourself in a doom loop as in the drop pod can be selected to move it just can't move for any reason but remaining Stationary ie defined as a move so it can't remain Stationary so you have to move it but it's unable to move for any reason so you have to remain Stationary buy you can't do that because remaining Stationary is a move......

I appreciate you have tried to actually quote the points an actual earnest attempt to address the issue. However, unless you can quote a definition that links these two I'm going to interpret the RAW as moves as defined in the movement phase and so you don't get to select them and your going to interpret it as moves anything with the word move in it.

I concede the deployment point that was a counter argument to the dictionary definition argument which would include placing it on the table which the dictionary argument would imply - not a serious point that you can't deploy drop pods

However regardless of the badly worded RAW we agree on RAI so unless you can prove the one point you need to which you can't this arguments been done since I first said it was

I did only just notice under the movement phase definition that remaining Stationary is defined as a move

Please define “unable” “to” “at” and “all” from the 40k Core Rules. If every word has to be referencing a keyword, then you should be able to.

No ones said every word has to have a keyword

To date noone has suggested move is a keyword its not keywords are clearly defined and nothing to do with the situation

Move is however defined in the context of the rules as when you move you remain Stationary, normal move or advance.

If you take out the middle word those words mean nothing

Perfect example of a bad faith post

It’s on the same faith as yours.

If a game rule is not referring to other game rules, use the basic meaning of the words.
And I don’t believe the rules say “The only possible movement options are Remain Stationary, Normal Move, and Fallback Move.” It says those are moves, but does not say other things cannot be moves.

No I've clearly quoted the rules and explained my position you've offered no quotes.

The rule is permissive not restrictive

It says

■ When a unit moves it can make a Normal move, Advance or Remain Stationary.
■ Units that are within Engagement Range of any enemymodels can only Fall Back or Remain Stationary

So it doesn't say other rules can't be moves but if they are moves I can do these things

So unless your argument is I can charge and advance or pile in and normal move they are not moves

U02dah4 wrote:
No I've clearly quoted the rules and explained my position you've offered no quotes.

It says

■ When a unit moves it can make a Normal move, Advance or Remain Stationary.
■ Units that are within Engagement Range of any enemymodels can only Fall Back or Remain Stationary

So unless your argument is I can charge and advance or pile in and advance they are not moves

it doesn't say that other rules could result in moves if you can show me such a quote (note not the word move a rule saying that rules that don't derive from the move stat are moves as defined in the movement phase I would agree with your point) if not the original definition stands

The rule section that describes the Move characteristic is not drawn from the rules regarding the Movement phase. It is from the rules governing Datasheets. It simply says "If a model has a Move of "-" it cannot move at all." Nothing about the Movement phase.

The rules you are quoting do come from the part of the MRB that governs the Movement phase. Since there are types of moves other that those in the Movement phase you cannot just sit on that section and declare that you found a rules loophole. The Charge Phase section has Charge moves, and it says that you indeed "move each model a distance..."SInce the Datasheets section states that a model with a Move characteristic of "-" cannot move at all, you cannot make a Charge move.

U02dah4 wrote:
No ones said ever word has to have a keyword

To date noone has suggested move is a keyword its not keywords are clearly defined and nothing to do with the situation

Move is however defined in the context of the rules as when you move you remain Stationary, normal move or advance.t

This is where your argument is wrong. The rules for the types of movement you can use in the Movement phase are defined in Core Rules using very similar language as the other forms of movement I quoted from the Rules Commentary.

REMAIN STATIONARY
If a unit Remains Stationary, none of its models can be moved for the rest of the phase.

NORMAL MOVES
When a unit makes a Normal move, each model in that unit can move a distance in inches less than or equal to its Move (M) characteristic, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of any enemy models (pg 7).

ADVANCE MOVES
When a unit Advances, make an Advance roll for that unit by rolling one D6. Add the result in inches to the Move characteristic of each model in that unit until the end of the phase. Each model in that unit can then make an Advance move by moving a distance in inches less than or equal to this total, but no model can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. A unit cannot shoot or declare a charge in the same turn that it Advanced.

FALL BACK MOVES
When a unit Falls Back, each model in that unit can make a Fall Back move by moving a distance in inches less than or equal to its Move characteristic, and when doing so you can move it within Engagement Range of enemy models, provided it does not end that move within Engagement Range of any enemy models – if this is not possible, that unit cannot Fall Back.

However all types of movement are defined separate from how to move a unit. That is in the third paragraph of the Move Units section of the Movement phase rules.

Each time you move a unit, you can move any of its models you choose to. The controlling player chooses the order in which to move their models. Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of its base can be moved across an enemy model or cross the edge of the battlefield. It can be moved over friendly models as if they were not there if you wish, but it cannot end its move on top of another model. The only exception to this is when moving Monster or Vehicle models; such models cannot be moved over other friendly Monster or Vehicle models and must be moved around them instead. The distance a model moves is measured using the part of its base that moves furthest along its path. If a model does not have a base, measure using whichever part of that model moves the furthest.

These rules for moving units apply to all types of movement in the game, including those not performed in the Movement phase. Before you disagree, tell me how you execute a Charge Move, Pile-In Move, or Consolidation Move if not following the rule above.

This was answered back on page one.

Charge Move: Move made in the Charge phase as part of a successful charge.

If a model has a Move of '-' it is unable to move at all.

Ignoring these very clear statements does not a loophole make. There's an argument for being able to declare a charge with a drop pod, but the charge will fail as the drop pod is unable to move.


Moving on.