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I had a friend of mine want to run a blood angels army in a 2 on 1, 4000pt game (2 2k armies vs a 4k pt army, being the one w/ the most models I played the 4k).

When building armies the question came up of using storm ravens. He had no converted models. He wanted to use a Mageknight Black Powder Rebel tank for one (It makes a decent conversion for his battlewagon) and a RC Tank (about 5 inches wide and almost 15 inches long) as proxies. I said no, and he went on to make a Deathcompany based army w/ 11 or so Dreads in it and 20 death company (no scoring units). His ally played a gunline space marine army. I Ran 2 2k armies so as to use the same slots as my opponents. One army had khan w/ a command bike squad and a pair of land raiders w/ termies. and the other was a vulkan based pod list.

The objective was a sieze ground mission and deployment was spearhead. Not to go into a lengthy Battle Report, I'll just give the basics. By turn 2 the turn 1 Ironclad Dread pod had survived and assaulted his marines near one point. I had bikes closing in on a second squad. and my command bike squad had outflanked and joined combat w/ the SM player's vanguard vets (LC and Storm Shields w/ packs). And I dropped a pod w/ 10 Sterngaurd + Lysander in the middle of the BA's Death company and Dreads. By turn 3 I had tarpitted the BA's entire army w/ Lysander (Most of the dreads were DC w/ rage and Lysander was surrounded by about 15 DC models. none of which had power weapons. so The dreads just had to sit there and watch). The BA player then wanted to quit the game but his ally and I talked him into continuing. At the end of the next turn I had killed off all of the SM players troop choices and Lysander was finally dead. I had 3 points. and was contesting the 4th.

The BA player then got mad said he quit. and proceded to start getting mad at me for not letting him use the stormravens and for talking him into continuing when he had no chance of winning.. He must have Yelled at me (not quite yelling but a pretty one sided conversation where i just sat there quietly picking up my Pieces and putting them away.) for about 10 minutes. At the conclusion of his rant He said he should be able to take a landspeeder and call it a Storm raven since there was no mini released yet.

I've played games where things hadn't gone my way but I never quit because I know the other guy is usually having fun and I could always turn the game around. In fact the BA player had defeated my in a 2k point game the previous day (he used orks vs my space marines), he didn't complain at all.

For some background, we are generally loose on proxies(none of us are rich),in this particular match I only had 1 drop pod model so I used CD's as place holders and Moved the model between them if anyone needed to check line of sight or distance. Both me and the opposing SM player fielded a Deadnaught w/ a marine as a thunderfire cannon. But generally we try to keep the models being proxied about the same size as their counter parts.

So to get to the whole point of this post (finally), What is generally accepted model for a stormraven? And do I owe the BA player an apology for not letting him use the storm raven?

conversions and proxies in a friendly game are down to what you agree on, if your using proxies it would have been fair to let him use proxies aswell, although try to stick to the same size if possible. I for one would have refused a 15" long stormraven...

I'd agree with your friends on what you could use as proxies, make a list of examples and stick to it...

For a suitable proxy just use a valkarie, or a valkarie flying base would do for short term in friendly games.
http://www.amesburygames.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/petesstormraven_web3.gif
Something like this seems the most fitting conversion.

People tend to use Valkyrie sized things. But there is no model so technically you cannot field them in your Army ever. So if you do have them it will always be a proxy of some sort. In a nice friendly game I would just allow pretty much anything Valkyrie sized.

Aramoro

By your account it seems that the whole issue is that the BA player was miffed that you denied his use of the Stormraven, so he came up with a list that, in his mind, was going to be cheese and mop the floor with you. Yet, when you broke his "cheese" list he got super pissed. I think it has less to do with the Stormravens and more to do with that guy putting his DC list up on a pedestal and then reacting badly when it failed to perform like he wanted it to.

To answer your question though, most of the awesome Stormraven conversions I have seen have been based on IG Valkyrie models and no you don't owe him an apology IMO, the reason you have to agree on a counts-as is because both of you have to interact with the model. If one side or the other is given an advantage because of a counts as, or it would just be a pain to use, then it's much better to say so up front than to let it go and not be satisfied with the game. Also, even if any apology was owed I think it would be tossed right out of the window the moment the guy threatened to ragequit on the game because it wasn't going his way

Exactly. We have several players who have converted valkyries as storm ravens. A proxy or 2 are OK amongst friends, but you need to be careful as it is not your opponent's job to remember what all of your models are actually supposed to be either. But Mr. 15 inch-Take-it-for-All-It's-worth, you might want to ask him if you need to call the waaaambulance.

Personally I hate proxies with a passion. I certainly would not have allowed your drop pod CDs.

That said, where there's no official model you need to cut people a little slack.

Were his proxies that bad compared to yours? At least they were models unlike your CDs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brettila wrote:Exactly. We have several players who have converted valkyries as storm ravens. A proxy or 2 are OK amongst friends, but you need to be careful as it is not your opponent's job to remember what all of your models are actually supposed to be either. But Mr. 15 inch-Take-it-for-All-It's-worth, you might want to ask him if you need to call the waaaambulance.

15" long storm raven isn't okay but OPs CDs for drop pods is?

Scott-S6 wrote:15" long storm raven isn't okay but OPs CDs for drop pods is?

The CD's were just placeholders so if/when they had to interact with the Drop Pod they could move the model in to interact with it. So in this case I would think that it's definitely better using CD's as placeholders and playing musical chairs with the actual model, than using a model that everyone can't agree on.

It's too bad a friendly game had to degenerate into an argument. If the proxy was unacceptable, it seems to me everyone could have agreed to a list change of some sort. Ah well...

Things every BA player should know about the Stormraven:
1) No official model
2) People generally accept a proxy if it is Valkyrie sized
3) IT IS AWESOME!
4) Everyone is jealous of it's awesomeitude
5) Armor 12 is unassailable



If you are AWESOME, you can put something together like dayve110 linked to. If you are not nearly as awesome, you can do something cheesy like me...


This picture is not a claim at modeling prowess. It is a sample of something even the most sloped fore-headed chump (me) can do to pacify the people jealous of the Stormraven. See points 3, 4, and 5 above.

Someone locally did an AMAZING conversion of a Stormraven from a Valkyrie kit, along with some random other bitz for the weapons. But, hell, even just using a Valk would be enough for me, given the lack of a released model. I can't complain that you're not using a model that doesn't exist, after all...

I do want to note that using CDs for drop pods and then denying him his Stormraven proxy is sketchy behavior on your part. I understand why you did it, but it does give the appearance of unfairness.

Scott-S6 wrote:Personally I hate proxies with a passion. I certainly would not have allowed your drop pod CDs.

That said, where there's no official model you need to cut people a little slack.

Were his proxies that bad compared to yours? At least they were models unlike your CDs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brettila wrote:Exactly. We have several players who have converted valkyries as storm ravens. A proxy or 2 are OK amongst friends, but you need to be careful as it is not your opponent's job to remember what all of your models are actually supposed to be either. But Mr. 15 inch-Take-it-for-All-It's-worth, you might want to ask him if you need to call the waaaambulance.

15" long storm raven isn't okay but OPs CDs for drop pods is?

As Tychron pointed out I had the actual model for the drop pod. The only other Proxy was the weapons on some of my bike squads and the dread playing a TFC (the opposing SM player was using the exact same proxy himself). His DC Dreads were Deff Dreads. Which isn't too bad given they use about the same sized base. Generally we don't mind infantry proxies Because neither of us has built up nearly enough bits (though I am pretty close to being spot on w/ WYSIWYG on my tac squads).

@ mastershou: The question of the proxy came up while he was still making his list.

As for another general question, How would one field one of these in a tournament? TO's Discretion?


Thanks for your opinions guys.

This may just be me, but that's a lot of proxies - too many for me to try to remember throughout a game - especially a game of that size. I personally would not have accepted 1) CDs as placeholders for drop pods, even if you have a model to move around, 2) a dreadnought proxied as a thunderfire cannon, beside the base they share no traits, size, shape, or otherwise, and if the cannon is destroyed you have to remember the marine attached to it is a techmarine (which means you gotta remember his specific wargear, etc), or 3) any of the proxies he was suggesting for the Stormraven.

But again, that may just be me. I'm personally quite anal about WYSIWYG and don't like proxies at all, but I'll accept some things from my opponents without argument.

As for whether or not you owe him an apology, you two had decided that the proxies you fielded were okay but his suggested proxies for the Stormraven were not. You'd agreed to this before the game started. It's not your fault his altered army list failed. You owe him nothing.

Also, isn't a thunderfire cannon cheaper than a dreadnought (dollarswise)? Obviously if you already had the dreadnought, that's fine, but that still makes that proxy seem kind of... out of place.

Generally people kitbash Valkyries and Land Raiders to make Stormravens. They generally will be accepted.

SaintHazard wrote:2) a dreadnought proxied as a thunderfire cannon, beside the base they share no traits, size, shape, or otherwise

TFC doesn't have a base. They have nothing in common whatever.

Scott-S6 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:2) a dreadnought proxied as a thunderfire cannon, beside the base they share no traits, size, shape, or otherwise

TFC doesn't have a base. They have nothing in common whatever.

Oh, my bad. Well, what he said.

A 15" model is way less acceptable than any of the other proxies. I would be fine with a proxy as long as it is relatively the same size. A valk for a storm raven would be fine. A land speeder or predator or 15" car would NOT be.

I just got done playing a game at the Local gaming store and saw a thunderfire cannon for the first time not in a box. I somehow always thought they were bigger. Depending on how certain ebay auctions go I may or may not have one come next week.

Tychron wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:15" long storm raven isn't okay but OPs CDs for drop pods is?

The CD's were just placeholders so if/when they had to interact with the Drop Pod they could move the model in to interact with it. So in this case I would think that it's definitely better using CD's as placeholders and playing musical chairs with the actual model, than using a model that everyone can't agree on.

You didn't bring any kind of model for most of your drop pods, just placing a marker instead.

And you think this is better than what the BA player did in bringing two models, regardless of what you think of their suitability.