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The Sunday Game came up and it was close fought as usual. However a couple of questions came up which i hope to clarify with your help.

I) A squad of plasma totting IG vets disembarks from their shaken chimera. They want to shoot a Deamon Prince so they deploy in a way that the 4 plasma weapons have LOS. However the rest of the squad has no LOS because of the Chimera. Now the DP is a monstrous creature so no cover save unless he is 50 % hidden. What's the correct thing to do? I told my opponent to take cover saves but he countered with the MC rule...

II) Can a squad embark on an immobile transport, move 12", and then disembark? In the heat of the moment we ruled it as no.

III) A manticore gets 2 shots with its cluster rockets. Firing directly you fire each separately or do you use the barrage blasts rule with the overlaping templates?

IV) Can a squad go to ground in the open to claim a cover save against indirectly firing barrage? We granted a 6+ but i wound value your opinions

V) Finally if i get the rules right an IG Commissar gets 4 attacks on the charge right?

I thank you for your attention

II) How do you move 12" in an immoble anything? Doesn't immoble mean not moveable?

If you're asking whether a unit can embark and disembark in the same turn the answer is No. BRB p66-67

1) cover is determined by the Firers point of View; if the Firers are Clear, then no Save.

2) 2 things; an immobile transport cannot move at all, and a squad cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn.

3)Directly should be the multiple Blasts rule, Indirectly should be the Multiple barrages. Technically there is no way to resolve the Manticore firing more than one blast as both rules assume multiple weapons firing not multiple blasts from the same weapon.

4) Yes Going to ground in the Open always gives you a 6+ cover save(although some weapons ignore cover entirely the general barrage rules just say to determine cover from the center whole).

5)That is correct, 2 base, +1 for 2 ccw, +1 for Charging. A Powerfist armed Commissar only has 3 Attacks on the charge, no 2 ccw bonus.

konst80hummel wrote:The Sunday Game came up and it was close fought as usual. However a couple of questions came up which i hope to clarify with your help.

I) A squad of plasma totting IG vets disembarks from their shaken chimera. They want to shoot a Deamon Prince so they deploy in a way that the 4 plasma weapons have LOS. However the rest of the squad has no LOS because of the Chimera. Now the DP is a monstrous creature so no cover save unless he is 50 % hidden. What's the correct thing to do? I told my opponent to take cover saves but he countered with the MC rule...

LOS is calculated from model to unit not unit to unit. So if model A in your unit has clear LOS no cover for that shot. If unit B can only see 50% of the deamon prince then the deamon prince gets 4+ cover. If model C can't see the deamon prince at all then he cannot fire.

konst80hummel wrote:
II) Can a squad embark on an immobile transport, move 12", and then disembark? In the heat of the moment we ruled it as no.

No...if the transport is immobile then it can't move at all period no matter who gets in it (I think SM have a guy that can fix immoble but don't quote me on that). I don't believe there is a rule saying your squad can't get in the transport and sit there firing out the fire ports though (assuming this isn't a drop pod which has it's own rules)

konst80hummel wrote:
III) A manticore gets 2 shots with its cluster rockets. Firing directly you fire each separately or do you use the barrage blasts rule with the overlaping templates?

There are not rules governing multiple blast plates how ever most people use the barrage blaste rule...figure this out pregame with your opponent

konst80hummel wrote:
IV) Can a squad go to ground in the open to claim a cover save against indirectly firing barrage? We granted a 6+ but i wound value your opinions

yup

konst80hummel wrote:
V) Finally if i get the rules right an IG Commissar gets 4 attacks on the charge right?

no clue...don't have IG codex

1. Half can see him in the clear. Half can't see him at all. None of them see him 50% obscured by terrain. Nope, no save.

2. No - no embarking and disembarking in the same turn. P66 (otherwise you could start embarked, move 12", get out, get in another transport and move another 12", etc) ETA - guys, pretty sure he meant a transport that hadn't moved.

3. The barrage rules say that you only use the multiple barrage/blast rules for multiple weapons in a unit firing. That is not the case with the manticore. That said, most people do play it using the multiple barrage/blast rules since it makes sense.

4. Yep It's specifically mentioned on p24.

5. Depends on weapons. Power fist - no(3) , power weapon - yes(4).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
How do you move 12" in an immoble anything? Doesn't immoble mean not moveable?

Thats my poor english for sure. I meant that it had not moved up to then in the movement phase. It wasn't Immobilised.

Also - the ones that cannot see cannot fire, so you simply declare they are not firing and they do not count *atr all* when you determine whether the MC is getting cover saves or not.

For your first question when the squad disembarks from the SHAKEN Chimera in order to fire, I don't think they can do that. Under the section the describes what the vehicle effects roll does to units inside transports it says specifically that they cannot fire, it doesn't mention unless they dismount.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

konst80hummel wrote:I) A squad of plasma totting IG vets disembarks from their shaken chimera. They want to shoot a Deamon Prince so they deploy in a way that the 4 plasma weapons have LOS. However the rest of the squad has no LOS because of the Chimera. Now the DP is a monstrous creature so no cover save unless he is 50 % hidden. What's the correct thing to do? I told my opponent to take cover saves but he countered with the MC rule...

Majority rules for cover saves. If half or more of a target unit is in cover or half or more of the shooters cannot see their target, the target gets a cover save. (It's in a handy boxout on p23, with a diagram)

konst80hummel wrote:II) Can a squad embark on an immobile transport, move 12", and then disembark? In the heat of the moment we ruled it as no.

A unit cannot voluntarily embark and disembark in the same player turn. (p66)

konst80hummel wrote:III) A manticore gets 2 shots with its cluster rockets. Firing directly you fire each separately or do you use the barrage blasts rule with the overlaping templates?

Seperate shots. Multiple barrages rules are used if a unit fires more than one barrage weapon. (p32)

konst80hummel wrote:IV) Can a squad go to ground in the open to claim a cover save against indirectly firing barrage? We granted a 6+ but i wound value your opinions

There's no requirement to be in cover to go to ground.

konst80hummel wrote:V) Finally if i get the rules right an IG Commissar gets 4 attacks on the charge right?

A Commissar will have however many attacks he has on his profile, +1 if he has two close combat weapons, and +1 on the turn he charges.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:For your first question when the squad disembarks from the SHAKEN Chimera in order to fire, I don't think they can do that. Under the section the describes what the vehicle effects roll does to units inside transports it says specifically that they cannot fire, it doesn't mention unless they dismount.

Shaken and stunned results prevent passengers firing from the vehicle in their next shooting phase. (p67) They can disembark and pewpew as normal.

Actually, the boxout on pg 23 says the opposite of what you think it says. Read the entry for squad E, which provides an apt analogy for firing at a unit that some firers see through cover, and some do not: "The players can very carefully count the Orks in cover from the point of view of each firer, or give E a cover save of +5 instead of +4"

This says to me that you can take the shortcut of reducing the cover save, of simply trace LoS of each firing model individually. The OP would have gained the most bang for his buck by tracing each LoS individually, thus granting no cover to plasma gun shots.

I) A squad of plasma totting IG vets disembarks from their shaken chimera. They want to shoot a Deamon Prince so they deploy in a way that the 4 plasma weapons have LOS. However the rest of the squad has no LOS because of the Chimera. Now the DP is a monstrous creature so no cover save unless he is 50 % hidden. What's the correct thing to do? I told my opponent to take cover saves but he countered with the MC rule...

all depends on how many are left in the squad. If it's a full squad (10 models), and only 4 can see the MC that means that less than 50% of the unit can see... that equals 4+ Cover for the Fresh Prince of Demons.

Case B on page 23 is exactly the situation mentioned above (since the example is only 40% can see the enemy in Case B and the situation above is 40% of the IG Vets could see the MC)

III) A manticore gets 2 shots with its cluster rockets. Firing directly you fire each separately or do you use the barrage blasts rule with the overlaping templates?

The Manticore is an Ordnance Barrage weapon which means that it can fire as Ordnance (directly) or Ordnance Barrage (indirectly), which has to be announced before the vehicle fires (page 58 BRB).

If it fired as Ordnance then Mutliple Large Blasts get to scatter as normal for each individual Large Blast (scatter die +2D6 minus BS / page 30 BRB).

If the Manticore is fired as an Ordnance Barrage weapon then you'd have to go with the rule for multiple barrage blasts (page 32 BRB).

mrfantastical wrote:If the Manticore is fired as an Ordnance Barrage weapon then you'd have to go with the rule for multiple barrage blasts (page 32 BRB).

No, you wont. Read the rule again, it talks about multiple Barrage Weapons, not a single multiple shot weapon.

Darkjediben wrote:Actually, the boxout on pg 23 says the opposite of what you think it says. Read the entry for squad E, which provides an apt analogy for firing at a unit that some firers see through cover, and some do not: "The players can very carefully count the Orks in cover from the point of view of each firer, or give E a cover save of +5 instead of +4"

This says to me that you can take the shortcut of reducing the cover save, of simply trace LoS of each firing model individually. The OP would have gained the most bang for his buck by tracing each LoS individually, thus granting no cover to plasma gun shots.

I think you are incorrect. I think the example "E" means to state you trace LOS from each model to see if more then half the unit is concealed. Repeat X 10 in this example, and IF the majority of the unit has LOS to the major of the enemy unit being in the open, then no cover save. This is a lot of math (Model A can see 3 of 10, B can see 6 of 10, C can see 10 of 10...repeat many many times over), so they give the -1 cover save as a time saver.

Majority rules for cover saves. If half or more of a target unit is in cover or half or more of the shooters cannot see their target, the target gets a cover save. (It's in a handy boxout on p23, with a diagram)

This is correct. I hate it to all hell and completely disagree with it from a logical point of view though because it bring up cases like....

5 man tactical squad with lascannon (combat squaded), in a building. The lascannon has perfect 100% LOS to an enemy Wraith Lord 18" away in the middle of a field, ZERO terrain within 12" of the Wraith Lord. The 4 marines are around a corner and cannot draw LOS. Wraith Lord gets a 4+ cover save? Never mind the bolters couldn't hurt it...or the fact you have perfect LOS with the weapon that can.

Am I understanding this right?

No, you wont. Read the rule again, it talks about multiple Barrage Weapons, not a single multiple shot weapon.

I stand corrected Gwar. You are the fine print King.

So the Multiple Barrage rule will never apply to the Manticore (or any other single model that can multi-shoot barrage blasts).

So fire each shot as normal. Yeah, Boyyeee!!!!!

Carnage43 wrote:5 man tactical squad with lascannon (combat squaded), in a building. The lascannon has perfect 100% LOS to an enemy Wraith Lord 18" away in the middle of a field, ZERO terrain within 12" of the Wraith Lord. The 4 marines are around a corner and cannot draw LOS. Wraith Lord gets a 4+ cover save?

No.

If the bolters can't see the target, they can't shoot at it. So in that case, only the lascannon is shooting. Since the lascannon has clear LOS, there is no cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrfantastical wrote:So the Multiple Barrage rule will never apply to the Manticore (or any other single model that can multi-shoot barrage blasts).

Not exactly.

As per the RAW in the rulebook, the Multiple Barrage rules only apply to multiple weapons firing.

In the Eldar FAQ, GW clarified that they should also apply to the Reaper Exarch's Tempest Launcher, which is a multiple shot Barrage weapon. While it doesn't say that this should be applied to any other multiple shot Barrage weapon, many (from my experience most) players take it as a precedent for what was intended, and apply it across the board.

Carnage43 wrote:5 man tactical squad with lascannon (combat squaded), in a building. The lascannon has perfect 100% LOS to an enemy Wraith Lord 18" away in the middle of a field, ZERO terrain within 12" of the Wraith Lord. The 4 marines are around a corner and cannot draw LOS. Wraith Lord gets a 4+ cover save? Never mind the bolters couldn't hurt it...or the fact you have perfect LOS with the weapon that can.

Am I understanding this right?

If you only fired the lascannon, you'd only check LoS and cover from the lascannon. If you fired lascannon and bolters you'd check LoS from all firing models to determine cover, and use the majority.

BRB page 22, under "Units partialy in cover" 4th paragraph. The one that begins with; "Of course being in cover depends on the position of the firer..."