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So a regular gaming partner and I came across this conundrum when playing a game between his IG and my Eldar. He argued that because his Ordnance Barrage does not need LoS to my Harlequin's with the Veil of Tears, he can fire indirectly and still target my Harlies. I'm not really so sure, because the Harlequin's Veil Of Tears doesn't say anything about line of sight, it just states that if I am not within the "spotting distance" that they may not fire.

I'm pretty damn sure I'm right, but he simply couldn't see it that way.

From what I understand, RAW would indicate that if it doesn't mention LoS then it doesn't apply. Sounds like he was arguing that it should be treated the same as Night Fight rules, which barrage units can ignore, but they lose their BS for scatter reduction.

VoT requires any unit attempting to TARGET the harlies to test for spotting distance. Barrage still rquires you to target the unit, therefore you must test for spotting distance, and if you dont meet the distance you cannot fire.

LOS is irrelevant for VoT

I'll agree that you have to test to shoot anything, including barrage, at Harlies.

Leonus, it's even worse than that. They also have to add an additional die to the scatter, ie a Barrage or Ordnance Barrage can fire at a target it cannot "see" but will roll 3d6 scatter if it doesn't get a hit.

You can't, they still have to roll 2d6x2.

What they can do, is target a nearby unit and have it scatter on you. Like say that unit of Pathfinders directly behind the harlies.

Which is why harlies shoujld be well away from any other unit you have, including their falcon....

Agreed. You will still have to test for VoT.

VoT and Shrouding are just nightmares imo.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:You can't, they still have to roll 2d6x2.

What they can do, is target a nearby unit and have it scatter on you. Like say that unit of Pathfinders directly behind the harlies.

Learned this lesson a couple of years ago at a tourney.

Worth noting though, if you put the center hole on another target and some of the harlies are covered, no VOT test would be required.

Can somone explain this please or aleast just give the reasons why

I know of plenty of weapons that require no LOS , IE the firer does not need to be able to see his target .

yet VOT says he needs to take the test a, sorry but it makes no sense

Now correct me if i am wrong but if i can fire at a unit hid behind a building that at no time has moved nor has any other unit in my army seen or had a LOS on them,with a weapon that requires no LOS IE they cant see them

why then would the harlies if hid behind a building and with no unit being able to draw LOS get to use the VOT ?

The whole point of a weapon that requires no LOS is that it can fire at things it cant see

So please explain so i can get my head round it thanks

Vot is a psychic shield that fuzzes your brain when you try to target them.

Thats why.

The magic space elves have a power which makes a unit attempting to target them lose track of them and fail to do so.

The honest answer is so that people can't cheese their way around the special ability and obliterate the unit with infuriating ease. Their special ability makes them hard to shoot at, and that's exactly why they have that rule. Cheesing around it would just be, well, cheesy.

Simply put, you don't know where they are so you cannot shoot them unless you pass the Veil test. You do know about that unit behind the building through some sort of battlefield recon platform.

Lol
i will put this down to another of GW rules that are stupid

the unit hid in a building in my example had not been seen at all by anyone in my army nor by any recon yet i can fire at them

The harlies that have not been seen by anyone in my army and are hid i cant shoot at lol

the point being you have a weapon that needs no LOS yet the harlies somehow effect the wepon and make it need a LOS LO

The more i play this game the dafter the rules become lol

No, it doesnt make you need LOS, it confuses your brain / targetting system such that, unless you are close, you cannot perceive them.

well got to say thats a different spin on it and since i dont play Eladar and dont have the codex i cant argue that ,other than to say i cant remeber the rule being explained like that in there codex sotnihg along the lines of shrouding them making them hard to see but i could be wrong

snakel wrote:Lol
i will put this down to another of GW rules that are stupid

the unit hid in a building in my example had not been seen at all by anyone in my army nor by any recon yet i can fire at them

The harlies that have not been seen by anyone in my army and are hid i cant shoot at lol

the point being you have a weapon that needs no LOS yet the harlies somehow effect the wepon and make it need a LOS LO

The more i play this game the dafter the rules become lol

The veil wording is based off when target the unit, blasts must be placed center over a model, therefor you are targeting them.

Fluff doesn't equal rules, otherwise it'd be fine to just place blast markers into the middle of nowhere.

while i accept the ruling as with many other odd rules in this game my question was not based on fluff

the rule is contradicting of another rule its that simple

i have no intetion of persuing this argument to somehow vindicate what i think should or should not be ,but you have to agree this is a case of one codex supperseeding another

cetain codex say that certian wepons need no los to a target yet the eldar codex says they do

for example tau seeker missiles no LOS needed and unlimited range

The rule stands as is but i asked the original question because i was at a loss to understand it

Veil of Tears is described to terrify and confuse anyone who wish to target them. It has to do with Eldar's sense of humour. They'll find a human skull genuinely funny, since it's obviously laughing. Very morbid.

Do note that it is perfectly fine to target someone else and then have the shot dump down on the Harlequins due to scatter dice, however.

In general it's supremely more powerful than night-fighting.

@ snakel: it's all about the fluff if you want to justify it messing with targeting. If not, well, just think of it "if I fail my check I will automatically miss as if I shot too far outside my weapon's range". It essentially limits all weapon ranges to the VOT check.

Snakel - sigh. it really isnt overriding another rule. It does not require you to need LOS (LOS is a defined term in 40k, and is not the same as spotting distance) when you otherwise dont. It is syaing that, in order to spot the Harlies you need to be within a certain distance. Your unit DOES need some battlefield information to target a unit out of LOS - remember this game is an abstraction, so your Barrage weapon could have a spotter unt further on the field, etc.

snakel wrote:
cetain codex say that certian wepons need no los to a target yet the eldar codex says they do

It's not a problem of rules superceding other rules. It'd just that VoT and Barrage are two DIFFERENT rules. There are many weapons that don't require LoS. Weapons with Barrage, or Tau seeker missiles, for example.

Fluff-wise, you can still target hidden enemies, since we assume that some sort of recon system/the indivdual model's scanner can tell where the enemy is.

On the other hand, VoT is a DIFFERENT rule, that makes it difficult for anybody to ever target the Shadowseer, with any weapons at all.

Fluff-wise, the VoT makes people 'forget' or 'not notice' the Harlequin squad, even if they appear on your scanner, even if they're standing in plain sight.

Different things.