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I ran into an issue with the flamer template. Lets see, we have a tower and behind this tower are 5 eldar dire avengers. Now, there is a speeder on the side of the tower and it can see 1 dire avenger hanging off the side of the tower. The firing arch on the template is blocked in a way where the speeder can only see the 1 avenger and you can't "at least i assume" shoot fire through a solid wall. His argument was that he's supposed to get as many models as possible under the template as stated in the rules so he basically ignores the building as if he were shooting through thin air and covers up all 5 avengers, instead of just the one that's out in the open. I don't know about you guys, but i think that the building shouldn't let you position the template on people that are behind it regardless of the wording on the rule.

You place the template so it covers as many models in the squad, ignoring anything in the way (except friendly models or models in CC, of course)

Your friend was correct.

Oh man, that's so messed up lol.

Remember you are playing a liquid over a solid surface, it will lap around and flow - its not a stream of solid projectiles, or a laser.

Its the rules. Your friend did it right. Lots of rules don't make sense in a real life situation, but those are the rules we play with regardless.

Your friend was correct(possibly); remember that the Flamer does not trump the 45* fire arc of any given weapon mounted on a vehicle(as the Flamer does not state that it does), so as long as his vehicle was angled correctly this would have worked, fi the Template was firing out at a hard angle however this would not work.

One time I was playing my battle-buddy Jim and he was using his Rhino as a screen for his Emperor's Champ and squad. They ran from out in the open to behind the Rhino, which was between them and my close-combat dreadnought. I pointed the flamer at the rhino and "just happened" to hit some of the Emperor's Champ's guys, too...

I thought it out like this: the dreadnought saw them run into cover, and knew how far they probably didn't get. If he got some, he got some; if not, then he misjudged, like missing a charge.

You need to be careful about the positioning of the dread in that case. You need to cover as much of the veicle as possible wiht the template, you cannot deliberately clip a small portion to hit more models in another squad.

The dreadnought and the squad could not have been more across from each other. it wasn't a mere clip of the Rhino, almost 1/3 of the template was covering the Rhino. Jim was whining that I was intentionally using the Rhino to illegally target his minis, as they were no in LOS, even though they had been. Logically, someone who saw them running towards cover would think they were in said cover. The flamer is not a precision tool for snipers, it is used to flush out troops in cover...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:T to illegally target his minis, as they were no in LOS, even though they had been. Logically, someone who saw them running towards cover would think they were in said cover. The flamer is not a precision tool for snipers, it is used to flush out troops in cover...

Don't use logic in that fashion for 40k – it turns it into fools tool.
As we've said if you were covering as much of the rhino as physically possible you were targeting legally, done and dusted.

If you were targeting bit of the rhino because your omnipresence allowed you to look through the eyes of one specific guy in the middle of a giant battle... well... really mate?

By the sound of it, it seems like you did not fulfill the requirement to cover the rhino. It could be those marines hiding behind the Rhino snuck in around the dread when it was turned, maybe a stray rocket distracted it from them or the dread occupant sneezed. I am not sure, but the only way to hit them is to position yourself in a manner that covering the most of the rhino also tags some marines.

I think his targeting of the Rhino is legal.

If I'm interpreting what he's saying he's doing with that Dread correctly, it should look something like this:


blue=dread, gray=rhino, red=marines, green=template

in which case, the requirement of "must cover as much of the vehicle as possible without touching any friendly models" is in fact met. As much of that template as possible is covering the Rhino. The fact that the bulk of the template is covering the Marines is a byproduct of its placement on the Rhino.

Remember that a Dreadnought's HF only has a 45 degree firing arc.

But it isn't (imo) you could cover much more of the vehicle by firing the template at an angle of about 40 degrees.

calypso2ts wrote:You need to be careful about the positioning of the dread in that case. You need to cover as much of the veicle as possible wiht the template, you cannot deliberately clip a small portion to hit more models in another squad.

What he said, I got screwed at hard boyz this year from a guy with a seer council and destructor, his target was a wave serpent that had a squad of dire avengers on each side.
Dire avengers - Wave Serpent - Dire Avengers
He put the templates down so they were just grazing the tank so he could obliterate both squads to the sides. I asked if he was sure that was how it worked and he said positive, needless to say that one turn of roasting 2 troop choices cost me the game in the end and after a long ride home and a peek at the rules I was not a happy guy. It was my own fault for not looking it up at the time though. You have to watch it especially at hard boyz, people will do anything to win sometimes.

You can cover more of the Rhino than that by shooting on an angle. But that first situation is pretty crazy.

IG88 wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:You need to be careful about the positioning of the dread in that case. You need to cover as much of the veicle as possible wiht the template, you cannot deliberately clip a small portion to hit more models in another squad.

What he said, I got screwed at hard boyz this year from a guy with a seer council and destructor, his target was a wave serpent that had a squad of dire avengers on each side.
Dire avengers - Wave Serpent - Dire Avengers
He put the templates down so they were just grazing the tank so he could obliterate both squads to the sides. I asked if he was sure that was how it worked and he said positive, needless to say that one turn of roasting 2 troop choices cost me the game in the end and after a long ride home and a peek at the rules I was not a happy guy. It was my own fault for not looking it up at the time though. You have to watch it especially at hard boyz, people will do anything to win sometimes.

I realise you took the responsibilty for not looking something up on the spot that you were unsure of... But you still say 'some people will do anything to win', what do you mean? Cheat? or maybe he's never been asked about it before or he just really didn't remember correctly (the number of times I have LD test backwards idk).

ChrisCP wrote:But it isn't (imo) you could cover much more of the vehicle by firing the template at an angle of about 40 degrees.

Ordo Dakka wrote:You can cover more of the Rhino than that by shooting on an angle. But that first situation is pretty crazy.

Not exactly. Speaking in terms of area coverage, moving the template at an angle will skew the top line and reduce the bottom line coverage. You'll get maybe a couple of square millimeters extra coverage, nothing more. Maybe not even that.

Seriously, if you want to, move that template around and calculate the area covered at various angles.

The gain from placing it at an angle is miniscule, if it's even there. It may be greater coverage by a few millimeters, but it could just as easily be less coverage depending on the exact angle... but honestly I could just as easily argue that since nobody at the table is a mathematician, working on sight alone, the coverage is identical.

That assumes your proportions are correct in the drawing as well and if the HFlamer happen to be on the left arm etc etc etc.

The important point here is what was TRYING to be done was to hit mainly the squad with the Rhino as a secondary target.

It is POSSIBLE to hit the squad, with clever positioning of the dread as you illustrate, but the actual rules point is he cannot position the template to maximize squad hits, he must maximize vehicle coverage.

40* would take you outside the Fire arc of the flamer; 45* fire arc does not mean 45 to either side, that would be 90*.

You only have a 22.5* wiggle room to either side of straight on with any weapon. From what was said and the Drawing(which accurately represents the description imo) it was done right; you might actually be able to get a little more of the vehicle and drop the right-most clipped model by angling to the left.

calypso2ts wrote:That assumes your proportions are correct in the drawing as well and if the HFlamer happen to be on the left arm etc etc etc.

The important point here is what was TRYING to be done was to hit mainly the squad with the Rhino as a secondary target.

It is POSSIBLE to hit the squad, with clever positioning of the dread as you illustrate, but the actual rules point is he cannot position the template to maximize squad hits, he must maximize vehicle coverage.

My proportions may be off, true, but the point remains that with only ~22 degrees movement right or left you're not going to get that much more vehicle, if, like I said, any more vehicle at all.

I firmly believe this is legal template placement.

I think the big point here is that while it is possible to hit secondary targets, you won't be able to maximize them since you actually have it dictated for you how to fire the weapon. The other thing to remember is that the flame template need to cover as much area as possible, not as much length as possible, and this can be a bit hard to calculate on the fly so covering a large amount of targets on the other side may simply be scoring you TFG points.

Mahtamori wrote:I think the big point here is that while it is possible to hit secondary targets, you won't be able to maximize them since you actually have it dictated for you how to fire the weapon. The other thing to remember is that the flame template need to cover as much area as possible, not as much length as possible, and this can be a bit hard to calculate on the fly so covering a large amount of targets on the other side may simply be scoring you TFG points.

Scoring TFG points by following the rules.

That is something I will never be able to understand. It's like calling someone a rules lawyer because they won't let your Tactical Marines assault after firing their bolters.

Oh, no, what I meant was not being bothered doing the math and simply sticking the template down in the, for you, most advantageous area.

Take the diagram Saint Hazard posted, if you move that template some 20-30 degrees to the left the area gain on coverage is pretty damned huge. So placing it like the diagram is certainly an illegal move according to RAW.

Gwar! wrote:Scoring TFG points by following the rules.

This happens all the time, I got harassed for asking a Drop Pod that DS into terrain to take a Dangerous Terrain test...of course, my Soul Grinders had been testing all day....

Mahtamori wrote:Oh, no, what I meant was not being bothered doing the math and simply sticking the template down in the, for you, most advantageous area.

Take the diagram Saint Hazard posted, if you move that template some 20-30 degrees to the left the area gain on coverage is pretty damned huge. So placing it like the diagram is certainly an illegal move according to RAW.

...does GW need to start putting scientific calculators in their starter sets?

I see no reason to have to actually calculate the area of the filled template at zero degrees versus at twenty degrees, versus three hundred and forty degrees. Eye it. If the opponent is happy with how much of the template is filled, you're good to go.

This brings me back to my argument that because the perimeter of the filled area of the template is now at an angle when it's at twenty degrees, you can't say for sure that it's more or less than the filled area at zero degrees, without actually calculating the filled area.

Also, can't you turn the dreadnought in the shooting phase to face the target? I can't remember the exact rules on walkers, but seem to remember you turn them in the shooting phase. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, this could be used to your advantage when gaining the proper angle for the template.

SaintHazard wrote:
Also, can't you turn the dreadnought in the shooting phase to face the target? I can't remember the exact rules on walkers, but seem to remember you turn them in the shooting phase. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, this could be used to your advantage when gaining the proper angle for the template.

Yes, you may rotate the dread in the shooting phase. So they effectively have a 360 degree fire arc. The 45 degree arc is only important for when you are trying not to expose your rear armor.

Kolath wrote:The 45 degree arc is only important for when you are trying not to expose your rear armor.

Or have an immobilized dread, or whatnot. . .

Well then there you go. Rotate the Dread counter-clockwise so that at its maximum 22 degrees to the right, the template covers the same amount of Rhino as it does maximum 22 degrees to the left, but still gives you an angle on the troops behind the Rhino.

Problem solved.

(Or just accept my original answer, that works too)

You can't hit a model you can't see

General_Chaos wrote:You can't hit a model you can't see

...no, you can't target a model you can't see. If a blast marker scatters onto a unit out of line of sight when not firing a Barrage weapon, does it automatically miss? No, it doesn't. Similarly, a flamer template doesn't automatically miss a unit out of line of sight, you just can't target that unit.

The Dread is not targeting the infantry behind the Rhino. He's targeting the Rhino, and consequently also hitting the infantry. Which is 100% legal.