Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, I have a unit of meltagun veterans to help with my army's anti-tank. (Currently, I have 2 vendettas, a vanquisher with pask and a command squad with 4 meltaguns + this squad in my 2500 pt list). Now the questions are:
Should I add a lascannon to add addtional anti-tank fire or leave it out so I don't feel compelled to stay put so my LC can contribute?
And should I expend the extra points to make them grenadiers or just keep them cheap?

Lascannon+Meltas=disaster for you. Meltas and shotguns is all they need.

I'd rather keep carapace at home unless you absolutely have nothing to spend a few points on

furthermore, the lascannon isnt necessary. Not only do you sport meltaguns, but the vendettas they're riding in bring 3 twin-linked ones which can move and shoot to boot.

Those were the thoughts I was having myself. Keeping them at 100 pts makes them expendable while 3 meltagun shots allows them to make a major offensive contribution if I can get them into the right place at the right time. If I find out I have 30 pts or so sitting around I'll give them carapace, but otherwise, they're staying cheap. Thanks for the help.

Demolitions is sometimes worth considering as well, especially if they will be riding in valkyries. That way, if you get a first-turn alpha strike, they can simply multi-assault closely grouped vehicles with melta bombs, rather than trying to melta-gun down one tank.

willydstyle wrote:Demolitions is sometimes worth considering as well, especially if they will be riding in valkyries. That way, if you get a first-turn alpha strike, they can simply multi-assault closely grouped vehicles with melta bombs, rather than trying to melta-gun down one tank.

+1 on demolitions, for 30 pts you get a demo charge (usually worth 20 pts itself), and ten melta bombs (which would make these 1 pt per model!), not to mention that now you have a squad with 4 special weapons.

At the same time, however, it also takes your vet squad from "who cares about 100 points" cost to "oh damn, I don't want to lose these expensive guys" cost.

Don't get me wrong, I like demolitions, but I don't think it's an auto-include, but making a fragile unit more dangerous often times simply ups their target priority, meaning you're less likely to use their offensive upgrades.

Expensice? Really? A marine squad costs more than that just to bulk up to 10 men. Altho its true i rarely get to use all my demos.

True, but I already plan to field a unit of vets with Harker+Demolition for that exact purpose.

I think demolitions is a maybe, grenadiers and lascannons are definitely no-nos.

Coz of our relatively custom games, My games would not allow me to scout with a valk and then jump out and assault, but in an actual measured up match - If you get first turn - you have every reason to expect that if theres a baneblade or 2 land raiders or 3 leman russ you will destroy all of them with a multi assault from veterans with demolitions.

This works because of a number of factors:

You scout move the valkyrie to 12' away from the enemy. Then deploy your models in your movement phase and move 6' (this works because on your first turn, your valkyrie has not moved, so you may disembark, move and assault)

Because of the disembark rules, you have actually moved 8' in your movement phase. You then multi assault any close together vehicles, and your meltabombs are autohitting. Against rear armour, you have a destroyed baneblade. Against rear armour of leman russ, your even better off, you most likely kill 2-3 leman russ. Its fair to expect around 6 penetrations on a land raider from 10 meltabombs.

on top of that, you could easily have 3 meltaguns in the squad for a bit of extra guarantee, but really how much do you need?

I don't think the LC is the worst place to put 20 points at the end of a list. Sure, it's a 20% increase in the squad cost, but if you get a couple of shots with it in a game you'll be glad you had it. You won't miss 2 shotguns. Makes more sense if they have a chimera to shoot it out of. I agree that demos goes best with meltavets, as described above. I think 3x specials, heavy, and a doctrine is getting a little expensive though...

murdog wrote: Sure, it's a 20% increase in the squad cost, but if you get a couple of shots with it in a game ...

... if you sit still, thus wasting the meltaguns most of the time...

So all in all, no LC. just no, dont even think about, tis forbidden say dakka.

Luna Havoc wrote:So all in all, no LC. just no, dont even think about, tis forbidden say dakka.

Yes, heed our interwebz wisdom or perish

Jaon wrote:Coz of our relatively custom games, My games would not allow me to scout with a valk and then jump out and assault, but in an actual measured up match - If you get first turn - you have every reason to expect that if theres a baneblade or 2 land raiders or 3 leman russ you will destroy all of them with a multi assault from veterans with demolitions.

This works because of a number of factors:

You scout move the valkyrie to 12' away from the enemy. Then deploy your models in your movement phase and move 6' (this works because on your first turn, your valkyrie has not moved, so you may disembark, move and assault)

Because of the disembark rules, you have actually moved 8' in your movement phase. You then multi assault any close together vehicles, and your meltabombs are autohitting. Against rear armour, you have a destroyed baneblade. Against rear armour of leman russ, your even better off, you most likely kill 2-3 leman russ. Its fair to expect around 6 penetrations on a land raider from 10 meltabombs.

on top of that, you could easily have 3 meltaguns in the squad for a bit of extra guarantee, but really how much do you need?

... so a flying vet squad can have a first turn 10 S8+2d6 auto-hit meltabomb range of 32" from your deployment zone. SWEET MOTHER. Yeah, I just started IG this week so tricks like this are good to know.

Its not 32" it can up to 38" – 24" flat out scouting (stayin 12" away from the enemy) followed by this 1st turn sequence 2" disembark 6" move 6" charge. Of course that pretty much means your skimmer can drop his load anywhere on a wide area to kill what you need dead.

Ailaros wrote:

murdog wrote: Sure, it's a 20% increase in the squad cost, but if you get a couple of shots with it in a game ...

... if you sit still, thus wasting the meltaguns most of the time...

You're misunderstanding me, friend. I'm saying waste the lascannon most of the time, making getting melta on target still the primary mission. It's just that there will be times when you don't have to move, and in that case an additional high strenth, low AP, long range shot is unarguably beneficial, especially out of the hatch of a chimera. A 33% increase in high strength shots is the benefit; the cost is 2 shotguns (which do mesh well with the melta, being 12" assault as well), and the 20% cost in the squad (which, as above, makes them a jucier target). I'm not even really recommending it, at least not without knowing points levels and lists, I'm just saying it's not the worst place to spend the last points of a list. The LC shares targets with the melta; sometimes you'll be static. If you want lean and trim, leave it at home, if you want max firepower, bring it along.

I'll point out that demolitions is is only 10 points more than the LC, and the demo charge and meltabombs mesh well with the meltaguns, making the squad even meaner against vehicles and heavy infantry while losing no mobility.

I'm actually in the process of modelling a squad with 3x melta, LC, and demos! 150 points + chimera, for use as a fluffy 'engineer' unit in games over 2000 points. Probably fun games only, that's pretty expensive for 10 squishies

murdog wrote:I'm saying waste the lascannon most of the time, making getting melta on target still the primary mission. It's just that there will be times when you don't have to move, and in that case an additional high strenth, low AP, long range shot is unarguably beneficial

Well of course taking the extra weapon will give the squad more firepower. The question isn't will the upgrade ever really do anything? (although it kind of is), but a question of what is the cost of what I'm getting? In this case, it's a fair number of points along with only ever getting to use it when there is nothing on the field worth shooting meltaguns against (but is worth shooting lascannons against), or things that are insanely close in range that your opponent decided not to kill for some reason. Is the benefit of the lascannon worth the points AND the cost of sitting still? I just can't see when the answer will ever be "yes".

murdog wrote:I'm actually in the process of modelling a squad with 3x melta, LC, and demos! 150 points + chimera, for use as a fluffy 'engineer' unit in games over 2000 points. Probably fun games only, that's pretty expensive for 10 squishies

Heh, right. As fun as I'm sure it would be, the idea of spending 200 points on that is rather silly. Hell of an alpha strike, though, if you had a way of reliably using demo charges and meltaguns and lascannons at the same target at the same time.

Ailaros wrote:Is the benefit of the lascannon worth the points AND the cost of sitting still? I just can't see when the answer will ever be "yes".

I can see situations where it would be worth the points: If you start in a position you want them in, and the opponent has to come to you, or you otherwise don't need to move them right away. If you put them in a position guarding against deepstriking heavy infantry or vehicles. If the squad survives a ranged counterattack after delivering melta, either due to dice or positioning, and has additional targets in range. If their transport is wrecked early, and their new job is to fight from the wreckage because to start walking would be suicide.

I don't count sitting still as a cost, because I would move if it was better to do that. To me the cost is the points and two shotguns.

:-) As someone who also plays a "Drop" list, yes, I can see where the LC is a nice thing to have... Deployed as the outer edge of a Mech column, the chances of something dropping in range are decent at least... Or the times you clear the local flank (or there never are melta targets really), leaving you the choice of a long drive likely in the open to chase something like perhaps an Eldar skimmer, or sit still and fire the lasers (multi and cannon) and at least take a few shots...

In general I don't think a LC in a melta vet sqd would be a brilliant idea, however I can see what Murdog is saying.

If you had nothing else to spend 20 points on and had a extra LC laying around hell why not stick it in the squad for that odd situation where it will work. Think it would work better with Plasma but that getting off point.