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Are Daemons of chaos competitive in 8th with all the new rules? . They were competitive last edition (I think) but are they now?

They were fairly broken, along with DE, last edition.

THey are still very competitive, but their big tricks (magic spam and BT) are lessened somewhat. Bloodletters are waaay better now (step up and doubling their attacks), however the old wall o nurgle is less so (no ward + regen anymore)

However the biggest boost is probably to Slaanesh - so many leadship destroying spells, and now you are *forced* to use your generals leadership (you have no choice) you can really go to town. The KoS can be made unkillable, essentially, in close combat, and benefits from rerolls all the freaking time...

nosferatu1001 wrote:They were fairly broken, along with DE, last edition.

THey are still very competitive, but their big tricks (magic spam and BT) are lessened somewhat. Bloodletters are waaay better now (step up and doubling their attacks), however the old wall o nurgle is less so (no ward + regen anymore)

However the biggest boost is probably to Slaanesh - so many leadship destroying spells, and now you are *forced* to use your generals leadership (you have no choice) you can really go to town. The KoS can be made unkillable, essentially, in close combat, and benefits from rerolls all the freaking time...

I didn't think DE were. They're my main fantasy army, and I find them quite good to play-Although I don't play ultra competitive games.

DE were heavily broken. Best shooting in the game at that time, horrible magic spam tricks (7pt power dice et al, untargettable mages shooting out of woods) and had hydras, the 50pt underpointed monster with mainly untargettable handlers.

Oh, and hatred. On pretty much everything.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DE were heavily broken. Best shooting in the game at that time, horrible magic spam tricks (7pt power dice et al, untargettable mages shooting out of woods) and had hydras, the 50pt underpointed monster with mainly untargettable handlers.

Oh, and hatred. On pretty much everything.

For all those same reasons, they are still a powerhouse, arguably the best. Outside of a tournament where I took a non optimum list, and the short rounds messed me up, I've just been laying waste to armies. It's almost to the point I don't want to use them anymore. I'd consider RXBs to be the best missile unit, my blocks *always* perform well worth their points. They still almost break the magic phase, as druchii sorcery allows a DE player to throw all their dice at that big spell they need...has saved me many times in getting off mindrazor.

As far as daemons go, they definitely were brought down a peg. The magic phase capping those rediculous tzeentch lists being a big part. I still believe they are competitive, as flamers and horrors are still decent units. It's just all those bad players that we winning with them last edition are getting worked over this edition where they have to use more than 2 brain cells during a game.

They *should* be suffering from more cover modifiers going around however - if you're playing against DE you can give your important stuff lots of cover.

They are hurt by step up much more than before: an assassin can no longer reliably clear his attack zone and so is more likely to die. Same for your hitty but fragile blackguard - people now get to hit back at you, and hitting a 5+ save model generally means killing it.

At least we can now shoot your lone Pegasus caster 9/10 (albeit with a cover, but magic takes care of that) meaning some of the shooty avoidance is mitigated. YOu also have more control when it comes to bait and flee tac tics, meaning greater control.

8th ed Daemons is all about Slaanesh and Bloodletters. Bloodletters, with supporting attacks, doubled in effectiveness, and more so compared to plaguebearers which dropped (regen OR ward). Ld mesing about is where its at, so Slaanesh rocks the boat there - you HAVE to use the generals Ld now, so you can muck that about quite easily.

Main use for horrors now is lower point games, where they give you a cheap core "lord" for casting. It is no longer a point and click army, which is great.

It also helps that theres probably less daemons and vampire armies out there so that makes more armies susceptible to Slaanesh magic (before you took the risk of going against armies without psychology)

The reduction in Ld still helped against other Daemon armies, as it affected their "crumbling"

nosferatu1001 wrote:They *should* be suffering from more cover modifiers going around however - if you're playing against DE you can give your important stuff lots of cover.

They are hurt by step up much more than before: an assassin can no longer reliably clear his attack zone and so is more likely to die. Same for your hitty but fragile blackguard - people now get to hit back at you, and hitting a 5+ save model generally means killing it.

At least we can now shoot your lone Pegasus caster 9/10 (albeit with a cover, but magic takes care of that) meaning some of the shooty avoidance is mitigated. YOu also have more control when it comes to bait and flee tac tics, meaning greater control.

8th ed Daemons is all about Slaanesh and Bloodletters. Bloodletters, with supporting attacks, doubled in effectiveness, and more so compared to plaguebearers which dropped (regen OR ward). Ld mesing about is where its at, so Slaanesh rocks the boat there - you HAVE to use the generals Ld now, so you can muck that about quite easily.

Main use for horrors now is lower point games, where they give you a cheap core "lord" for casting. It is no longer a point and click army, which is great.

That's why I avoid assassins, black guard, executioners, witch elves, like the plague. They can hit really hard, true, but die just as fast. Witch elves can still fill a role though, as they are cheaper than their elite counterparts, and against most enemies carry about the same survivability rate as corsairs (my favorite unit).

Slaanesh is nasty this edition, but it does require your lines to win combats, in this edition where magic has a much larger effect on combat (Basically every lore has a combat modifier), bringing your own magic is ideal. That's why I suggested Tzeentch unit, to take a herald w/ loremaster and take something like life, shadow, or light to boost your melee performance and force all those low LD tests (LD6 and below in most cases).

I was gonna say - WE with a nice cauldron buff are very survivable, and hit very hard - especially with standard of armour piercing.

greenbay924 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They *should* be suffering from more cover modifiers going around however - if you're playing against DE you can give your important stuff lots of cover.

They are hurt by step up much more than before: an assassin can no longer reliably clear his attack zone and so is more likely to die. Same for your hitty but fragile blackguard - people now get to hit back at you, and hitting a 5+ save model generally means killing it.

At least we can now shoot your lone Pegasus caster 9/10 (albeit with a cover, but magic takes care of that) meaning some of the shooty avoidance is mitigated. YOu also have more control when it comes to bait and flee tac tics, meaning greater control.

8th ed Daemons is all about Slaanesh and Bloodletters. Bloodletters, with supporting attacks, doubled in effectiveness, and more so compared to plaguebearers which dropped (regen OR ward). Ld mesing about is where its at, so Slaanesh rocks the boat there - you HAVE to use the generals Ld now, so you can muck that about quite easily.

Main use for horrors now is lower point games, where they give you a cheap core "lord" for casting. It is no longer a point and click army, which is great.

That's why I avoid assassins, black guard, executioners, witch elves, like the plague. They can hit really hard, true, but die just as fast. Witch elves can still fill a role though, as they are cheaper than their elite counterparts, and against most enemies carry about the same survivability rate as corsairs (my favorite unit).

Slaanesh is nasty this edition, but it does require your lines to win combats, in this edition where magic has a much larger effect on combat (Basically every lore has a combat modifier), bringing your own magic is ideal. That's why I suggested Tzeentch unit, to take a herald w/ loremaster and take something like life, shadow, or light to boost your melee performance and force all those low LD tests (LD6 and below in most cases).

I agree with the no assasins,black guard,executioners and witch elves. I never found witch elves useful even in 7th, as they are basically corsairs with poisoned attacks and frenzy as standard. I just get sea serpent banner, addi hand weapons and BSB with standard of hag graef. Also, witch elves are more expensive and are special (choice). I'd much rather spend my special selection points on shades and cold one knights. In terms of daemons, I also use horrors as a horde for level 4 wizard, and chuck in a herald with master of sorcery in the few battles I've played, which means my army has a total magic level 6, and I still have my lord section free for a Greater daemon.

High Ld for Mindrazor mainly - fairly cheap and lots of attacks maximises the potential.