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Dakka, need your help urgently on this. The people at my FLGS have aggressively disagreed with me on this, but im 100% convinced that im right.

Complex wound allocation.

The unit in question was a unit of 5 Deathwing Terminators. There was a sergeant, a terminator with assault cannon, and 3 terminators with powerfists and storm bolters.

I inflicted 14 wounds on this squad. Now, my opponent went to do his wound allocation, which was fine, the allocation was something like 3,3,3,3,2.

He then went to roll for his storm bolters individually as in 3 for this guy, 3 for the next guy etc. I stopped him, and pointed out that he must roll all of these saves together, as they are all part of the "same group within the unit". He disagreed with this, and very quickly the rest of the shop became involved. At this point he decided to do the wound allocation the way he was going to initially. Based on what he had rolled, if he had done it the way I thought was correct, those 3 storm bolters would have been dead (as excess wounds to not carry over to other groups within the unit?). As such, 1 of them survived which later went on to do some serious damage.

Who was right Dakka? Currently I'm not popular at the store because i'm a "cheat". But am I? If i'm wrong on this i'll gladly acceppt that, but I honestly don't think I am - but I'd like to find out either way!!!

As far as I know you have to roll the saves for identically equiped models in a unit at once. Though I dont have my rulebook on me and it may just say that it is optional....I'm sure someone will clarify more as it stands I would agree with you.

you are right my friend.

page 25 of the WH40K rulebook states that after wounds have been allocated as you said was done fine, you then roll all the wounds caused on models that are the same in gaming terms, together. you then repeat this if need be for any other groups of similar models that might be within the same squad.

If you need to find it, its under 'Taking Saving Throws' on page 25 of the WH40K rulebook.

hope this helps.

From what i understand of it as states on pg25 under 'taking saving throws' you are supposed to take all the saving throws of identical models at the same time then he chooses which of the identical models to remove, its this way for a reason, simply if you cause multiple wounds as you have done and he rolls for that specific model seperately and 2 wounds are inflicted you cant double kill it so you've lost out on a wound that should of killed another of his models, so in essence 'YOU WERE RIGHT' and be sure to point it out when back at your FLGS.

But aren't like "groups" within the unit required to roll their saves at the same time?

There is a crucial difference, as say for example each terminator has 3 wounds allocated each.

The first Roll is 1,1,2
The second roll is 2,4,6
THe third Roll is 3,4,5

By the rules, does this not mean that because that group failed 2 saves, that group now has to remove 2 models?( or suffer two wounds in the case of nobs etc)#

Conversely, this is true as well:

The first Roll is 1,1,2
The second roll is 2,1,6
THe third Roll is 3,4,1

They have suffered 4 wounds this time - but since there is only 3 models in the "group", the extra wounds DO NOT carry to the other members of the squad.

Am I getting this totally wrong?

Yes, it does state it clearly on the page i quoted and even gives an example at the bottom of the page where he has to roll 4 saves for 2 SM's with boltguns at the 'same' time and allocates any wounds on those 2 models his own way.

For models with the same weapons, wargear etc you roll the saves at the same time and allocate any unsaved wounds as you like.

Liam ignore what your friends are saying they are absolutely incorrect.

You are right, you never ever take saving throws in a per model basis. You only allocate them based on a per model basis. You always roll saving throws as per the first line of the paragraph titled 'taking saving throws' on page 25.

Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws together in one batch. Causalities can be chosen by the owing player from amongst these identical models

The rules are dead clear and explicit on this, what they are essentially doing is allowing every unit to act like a unit of diversified nobs and are significantly increasing the survival rate of their troops.

Liam0404:

if, like in your example, you roll a 1,1,2 for a terminator save then that terminator will suffer both those wounds and so will not carry on to other members in the squad. it is also possible for more wounds to be caused and it is merely a case of sharing them out equally amongst the models within the squad as best you can. so a squad with only three models can suffer four wounds but one unlucky soul will have been hit twice and so doubling the chance that one of those will prove fatal but only to that particular model.

Secrets&Lies wrote:sorry but your friend is right.

if there is more wounds caused than wounds to take them then you share them equally between each model. i believe page 25 of the WH40K Rulebook explains this. in your case you caused 14 wounds and he only had five guys with one wound each to take them. he would first give them all a wound and repeat this until all 14 have been allocated. He then takes saves as normal for each one, taking off any that fails. I don't think it really matters if it is rolled seperately or not even though they have the same wargear but again on page 25 it shows two rocket launcher armed marines with seperate dice and two bolter armed marines rolling seperate dice.

I would have thought you'd have been happier at this because you get a better chance of takking out sergeants and heavy weapons rather than him just taking up his normal models.

anyway hope this clears it up.

Yes, the Allocation of the wounds was done correctly, the saves however were not. You roll all the Saves for each set of Models that are identical(Same Name, Same Stats, Same Wargear). It very much matters when it saves are rolled for seperately, as with Liam's example, 1 of the three identical models could fail all three saves and the other 2 could pass all their saves.

Liam: The page and passage you want are Page 25, under Taking Saving Throws, First paragraph, First sentence; "Having allocated the wounds, all models in the unit that are identical in gaming termstake their saving throws at the same time, in one batch."

You really cannot get any clearer than the GD-Rulebook; plus it gives you Game developers support(Since it is the unambiguous Rules as Written), as opposed to "the guys on Dakka say I'm Right"

Go forth armed with righteousness and show them the word of the book. Should that fail a nice sock full of nickels to the temple should clear their heads of fake rules.

Edit: Ninja'd

P.S. S&L: what are you on about?Yes one model can take several wounds, if that model is different from the rest of the squad in gaming terms, or the entire squad of identical models is over-killed(at which point you do not know which model(s) took more than 1 wound, nor does it matter).

As above. You were right, they were wrong.

You group together all wounding hits on all identical models, roll the saves together, and remove models from within that group as you fail saves.

Boy would I love to be a fly on that wall when you break the news, alot of rules can be interpreted different ways but this is one that is pretty clear cut with exact wording to clarify. Good uck

technically he has the right idea, you assign the wounds to the models, however you roll them in wound groups (to speed things up) and identicle units get removed at once (like what these guys are saying)

so he's got like 80% of wound allocation right, which is better than what most people do (roll all the saves together, never remove the sarg or special weapons)

You are correct, they were wrong. That all there is to it.

Agreed, you've got it right and they were wrong.

BTW: This is what makes those mobs of Nob's so effective. Each model is equipped with slightly different wargear so they are all individual groups for wound allocation.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Secrets&Lies wrote:sorry but your friend is right.

if there is more wounds caused than wounds to take them then you share them equally between each model. i believe page 25 of the WH40K Rulebook explains this. in your case you caused 14 wounds and he only had five guys with one wound each to take them. he would first give them all a wound and repeat this until all 14 have been allocated. He then takes saves as normal for each one, taking off any that fails. I don't think it really matters if it is rolled seperately or not even though they have the same wargear but again on page 25 it shows two rocket launcher armed marines with seperate dice and two bolter armed marines rolling seperate dice.

I would have thought you'd have been happier at this because you get a better chance of takking out sergeants and heavy weapons rather than him just taking up his normal models.

anyway hope this clears it up.

Yes, the Allocation of the wounds was done correctly, the saves however were not. You roll all the Saves for each set of Models that are identical(Same Name, Same Stats, Same Wargear). It very much matters when it saves are rolled for seperately, as with Liam's example, 1 of the three identical models could fail all three saves and the other 2 could pass all their saves.

Liam: The page and passage you want are Page 25, under Taking Saving Throws, First paragraph, First sentence; "Having allocated the wounds, all models in the unit that are identical in gaming termstake their saving throws at the same time, in one batch."

You really cannot get any clearer than the GD-Rulebook; plus it gives you Game developers support(Since it is the unambiguous Rules as Written), as opposed to "the guys on Dakka say I'm Right"

Go forth armed with righteousness and show them the word of the book. Should that fail a nice sock full of nickels to the temple should clear their heads of fake rules.

Edit: Ninja'd

P.S. S&L: what are you on about?Yes one model can take several wounds, if that model is different from the rest of the squad in gaming terms, or the entire squad of identical models is over-killed(at which point you do not know which model(s) took more than 1 wound, nor does it matter).

yeah i realised it was wrong. i mustn't have edited it quick enough. sorry for the confusion