Deffdreads or Killa Kans?

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**NoBaconz4You**

Which one do you prefer?

The killa kans are a lot cheaper, but lose out on the armour side and WS, however they have BS3.
The dreads are more in points but have better AV and access to dread CC weapons, although they cant shoot for ****!

Im not sure which to buy...please help, experienced ork players!

**AlmightyWalrus**

KFF Mek, Killa Kans AND Deff Dreads! Kan Wallz are annoying as hell and actually have a fighting chance!

**NoBaconz4You**

If i was to only get one though?

**Melissia**

Nine kans and two dreads.

What? It's legal.

**NoBaconz4You**

Legal? Inform meh please!!! Sorry I haven't had any experience with orks

**MechaEmperor7000**

Each Big Mek you take lets you take one Deff Dread as a Troop Choice.

**NoBaconz4You**

Ah, thank you, I did have a look in the codex but wasn't thorough enough!!

**MechaEmperor7000**

The rule about Deff Dreads as troops is a small blurp inside a box near the Big Mek's entry, so it's easily missed. I didnt even know about it until one of my friends pointed it out.

**Shrike325**

It really depends on what you want them to do. Unfortunately the dread having I2 really hurts it in terms of dread/MC hunting so really it's best getting into CC with standard troops. Kans are a bit better for tank hunting as they are better at shootin' rokkits.

**Ugavine**

to be honest I find the best use for Dreds & Kans is as a diversion. Really you want your mob of Boys in CC. But a line of Kans or an intimidating Deff Dread tend to draw fire, which is fine. I've rarely been able to get my Dreads or Kans into CC.

As for which is best? 3x Kans cost less than a Deff Dread (money wise) and provide three options for you. I'd go with the Kans.

**NoBaconz4You**

Thanks Ugavine, I'm really stuck on which to get, if I had th money I'd get both, but I don't have the time to paint them all. In terms of the most fun to make and paint which one would you go for?

**MrGiggles**

If you're jammed up for time, then get a Dread. Painting one model is quicker than doing three.

**Mukkin'About**

The plastic deff dread kit looks great!
But the new kans also look sweet!
I would have to agree, if you don't have a lot of time. get the dread

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Kans look better to me than the Dread. Something about the shape of it that makes it look weird, even by ork standards.

**Mike Noble**

Pretty much anything Deff Dreads can do, Kanz do better. I'd only take them if you already have 9 Kanz. So yeah, 2 Dreads 9 Kanz would be good.

**ChrisCP**

Except to you know, excel in CC

I ran a 6 Kan wall at 1500 (was meant to be a 1250 game orginally) and found that even the idea of a Dread to be shot at by IG and Salamanders - even it had done nothing, would have been fantastic

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

I prefer the Kanz, they really take advantage of the KFF mek

**MechaEmperor7000**

3 Killa Kans (taken hypothetically with no ranged weapons to put them on par with Deff Dread) is the same cost as a Deff Dread with 4 Dreadnought CCWs. Against a MEQ, they would inflict 3.75 wounds. A Deff Dread would inflict 2.5 wounds against the same MEQ. Against a SM commander, they have the same kill rate (2.5 wounds each, all of which causes Instant Death). Against GEQs, the single Deff Dread only inflicts 3.33 wounds, whereas the Killa Kans would still maintain their 3.75 kill rate. A single Deff Dread is also more susceptable to a Power Fist in the face, as it effectively only has one "wound" whereas Killa kans have 3 "wounds" due to being in a squadron. And again, this is calcluations based on three naked Killa Kans (technically not legal, but done for the purpose of this experiment) against a single DeffDread outfitted for Close Combat.

**ChrisCP**

Which is out of context and not actually something you'd see in a game... as you said...
3 Kk /w RL - 150, Dread w/ 2CCW, Grot - 115.

Kans 6 attacks, Dread 5
Dreads will be hit on 4's not 3's in CC
And have AV-12, and be able to be back moving on 4+

Surely, 6 attacks, hitting on 4's will give <3 wounds? 2.5? maybe? Dread is already at 2.5 hits... How did you do that math?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Kans have 9 attacks on the charge. a Dread only has 6.

**ChrisCP**

So on the charge then =) But the point is as you said, that's an unrealistic comparison in game terms. There's several pros to taking a dread, once your KK kan quota is full, I'd also consider taking a Dread over a single kan taken from a squadron as (assuming RL loadout - I'm liking KMB atm) that's only another 60ish points - not much for orks only AV 12.

I think over all the main consideration to have is - in CC they are both only afraid of PFists essentially, and the differance of a 4+/3+ to hit and then a 3/4 to glance to be the most telling thing about their CC potential. Kans will do and you'll have alot of them to start with, but the DD is just plain old more surable and doesn't lose Str 10 from one damage result!

**Big Mek Dattrukk**

Kans all the way. it has been my experience that a dread, if not protected by cover, will draw a

ton of anti vehicle fire. the three kans, are ignored until they do something drastic. i usually run mine loaded out with either rokkits or grotzookas, depending on the type of army i am facing. getting them into CC is just icing on a shooty kake.

**sebster**

I’ve gotten a lot more value out of my kans than my deffdreds. The advantages of the deffdred just don’t seem to matter that much – I don’t really value the point of armour, as AV12 still leaves you vulnerable to the Str 7 and 8 guns that make up so much of the medium AT weapons on the field. The extra WS and attacks aren’t that valuable, either, as I find that kans and deffdreds will both trash anything they match up well against (vehicles, troops without powerfists) and get smashed by anything they match up against poorly (monstrous creatures, troops with powerfists).

So basically, I prefer the cheap number you can get with the kans.

**MechaEmperor7000**

ChrisCP wrote:So on the charge then =) But the point is as you said, that's an unrealistic comparison in game terms. There's several pros to taking a dread, once your KK kan quota is full, I'd also consider taking a Dread over a single kan taken from a squadron as (assuming RL loadout - I'm liking KMB atm) that's only another 60ish points - not much for orks only AV 12.

I think over all the main consideration to have is - in CC they are both only afraid of PFists essentially, and the differance of a 4+/3+ to hit and then a 3/4 to glance to be the most telling thing about their CC potential. Kans will do and you'll have alot of them to start with, but the DD is just plain old more surable and doesn't lose Str 10 from one damage result!

There are indeed pros to taking a dread. However I was just trying to prove that statistically Kans are no worse, in fact a smidge better, than Deff Dreads in Close Combat.

**ChrisCP**

Nah I understand what's going on

I'm saying however if we did a comparison like the orginal above the KKs would come out ahead when just considering attacks. In-game however, I feel it's unlikley that a full 3 man KK squad would make it to the lines (it's also more than possible for a dread to go boom) but there are several factors which make me strongly feel that in a comparison of a different nature the Dread has to win the CC crown.
These are, KKs need to lose only one weapon to be STR 5, a KK has only 3 attacks, they are going to be hit 50% more in CC, Str5 attacks are the starting point to glance, the fact that they are squadron means immob'd is enough to make them a wreck, or 50% of rolls on the chart on a pen, and still 1/6 on a glance!
I'm not trying to say KK's are bad in CC, but that their so much more fragile than a DD for one more attack - I'm not even too sure that 3 KK's would be that much more survivable against against thing that threatening to both.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The main reason why I eliminated all other variables is because KKs and DDs have drastically different psychological impacts on your opponent. If he sees one gigantic dread charging his way, that Dread is definately going to see more flashing lights than a midnight rider's concert, whereas three KKs might get through scott free while the enemy concentrates it's firepower elsewhere. They're also easier to hide in cover than DDs, and can shoot down the enemy the entire way. Deff Dreads have access to better weapons, but most of the time you'd probably just spring for the two CCWs and go W+1 on the enemy's asses. Kill-wise, the KKs will probably be more point-efficient than a single Deff Dread.

**sebster**

ChrisCP wrote:I'm saying however if we did a comparison like the orginal above the KKs would come out ahead when just considering attacks. In-game however, I feel it's unlikley that a full 3 man KK squad would make it to the lines (it's also more than possible for a dread to go boom) but there are several factors which make me strongly feel that in a comparison of a different nature the Dread has to win the CC crown.

Yeah, the KKs might not all get there, but that's balanced by the possibility that if the Deffdred doesn't get there it's completely out of the game.

These are, KKs need to lose only one weapon to be STR 5, a KK has only 3 attacks, they are going to be hit 50% more in CC, Str5 attacks are the starting point to glance, the fact that they are squadron means immob'd is enough to make them a wreck, or 50% of rolls on the chart on a pen, and still 1/6 on a glance!

Other than Tau, I don't there's too many armies with large amounts of Str 5 shooting, such that they'd fire it off at Kans on the hope of a glance. More typically you see the medium AT weapons at Str 7 & 8 firing, and these are not that much more effective against AV11 than they are against AV12.

I'm not trying to say KK's are bad in CC, but that their so much more fragile than a DD for one more attack - I'm not even too sure that 3 KK's would be that much more survivable against against thing that threatening to both.

The strength of the Kans isn't in having an extra attack or two in melee, it's that you get three of them for roughly the same price as a single deffdred.