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I've been a long time space marine player and decided that it was finally time to start a second army. I decided to go with tau since they don't look too much harder to paint than space marines (I suck at painting fine detail). I also liked the fluff and playstyle they seem to gravitate towards (mobile shooting). Anyhow the following is what I have come up with for my first list as Tau. Any suggestions and advice (like nitpicking errors such as taking the wrong number of units) would be greatly appreciated.

HQ- Shas'O 137pts
+Missile Pod
+Plasma Rifle
+Drone Controller w/ 1x Shield Drone
+Hardwired Multi-Tracker
+Stimulant Injector

Troops- Fire Warrior Team 180pts
+6x Fire Warriors
+Devilfish
+Smart Missile System
+Targetting Array
+Multi-Tracker
+Disruption Pods

Troops- Fire Warrior Team 60pts
+6x Fire Warriors

Troops- Fire Warrior Team 60pts
+6x Fire Warriors

Fast Attack- Pathfinders 216pts
+8x Pathfinders
+Devilfish
+Smart Missile System
+Targetting Array
+Multi-Tracker
+Disruption Pods

Fast Attack- Pathfinders 216pts
+8x Pathfinders
+Devilfish
+Smart Missile System
+Targetting Array
+Multi-Tracker
+Disruption Pods

Elites- Stealth Team 180pts
+6x Shas'ui

Elites- XV8 "Crisis" Battlesuit Team 196pts
+3x Shas'ui
+3x Missile Pod
+3x Plasma Rifle
+3x Multi-Tracker
+Team Leader Upgrade
+Bonding Knife

Elites- XV8 "Crisis" Battlesuit Team 124pts
+2x Shas'ui
+2x Missile Pod
+2x Plasma Rifle
+2x Multi-Tracker

Heavy Support- Broadside Battlesuit Team 285pts
+3x Shas'ui
+1x Team Leader Upgrade
+1x Target Lock for Team Leader
+3x Advanced Stabilization Systems
+Drone controller for Team Leader
+2x Shield drones.
+Bonding Knife

Heavy Support- Hammer Head 170pts
+Railgun
+2x Burst Cannons
+Multi-Tracker
+Target Lock
+Disruption Pods

Heavy Support- Hammer Head 170pts
+Railgun
+2x Burst Cannons
+Multi-Tracker
+Target Lock
+Disruption Pods

[1994pts]

Basically, I would start the two pathfinder teams in spots with good lines of site. And put their dedicated devilfishes right next to the two unmounted firewarriors so they can jump in on turn one. The broadsides and hammerheads would pop vehicles with the assitance of the pathfinders. The stealth suits and multitude of burst cannons on my tanks can shred infantry and the 2 squads of crisis suits will attempt to help in neutralizing AV10-11 vehicles and elite infantry. If targets of opprotunity present themselves, the hammerheads can target clumped infantry and the pathfinders can attempt to pin units approaching the broadsides (one will fire markerlights, and the other will fire carbines [a last ditch effort, I know]).

I'm not sure about fielding kroot. And I couldn't find the points to spare for piranhas (I have burst cannons aplenty in the army and fusion guns are far to short range for my tastes).

As I said earlier, any recommendations on improving this list would be appreciated. As would any bits of tau tactics that you can spare. As always, thanks for taking the time to give this a read.

Edit: Dropped bodyguard to regular elites choice suits. I used the points gained from this to get shield drones and a bonding knife for the broadsides. Put a bonding knife on the 3 man Crisis Suits (2 man team doesn't need one since the they only have 2 members). I also dropped the commander's shield generator for a shield drone. I then had 6 points left over and bought photon grenades for the firewarriors with the dedicated devilfish (odds favor them being on the forward most objective). This brings the list to an even 2000 points.

I think this is a pretty good list. I really wouldn't change much, if anything about it.

I don't like stealth-suits, but if you find that they work for you, just continue to use them.

The bodyguard crisis suits are more expensive than the normal crisis suit units, so I wouldn't suggest getting them until you have no more elite slots left. I would downgrade them to a normal elite unit, and you really aren't losing much on the way of wargear. You don't need targetting arrays or target-locks because pathfinders provide the extra BS, and you want to be firing at the same unit with your battlesuits anyways.

With that changed, you could increase the size of the unit to three crisis suits if you take... the shield generator off of your commander.

The main reason for using the bodyguards is that they are a retinue, and as such, they don't grant an extra killpoint. The target lock was only on the unit to provide the ability for some wound allocation shenanigans and to be of some use if I am firing at multiple rhinos. But as you mentioned, getting BS can be had from the pathfinders if need be. I may have to consider your advice and adjust the list around to squeeze and extra suit in there when I get more models. (I only currently have 6 crisis suits in total)

The retinue does give an extra KP, so you are just as good going with a normal unit. Bottom of page 91 in the 40k Rulebook.

The Bringer wrote:The retinue does give an extra KP, so you are just as good going with a normal unit. Bottom of page 91 in the 40k Rulebook.

Yeah, Thaylen, the Body Guard do add a KP.

Also, the Shield Gen on the HQ: I'd switch it out for a Shield Drone. Most AP3 weapons or better are high enough STR to cause Instant Death. Better that a ShieldD takes the hit. Also, a Shas'El with Target Array keeps your BS 5, but saves points. Do ya really like that extra wound on the Shas'O?

Broadsides: Railguns are targeted first almost every time as opponents perceive them as such a hard threat. Your team needs Shield Drones if they're going to last more than one or two rounds of being shot at, or at least GunDs if you're certain to deploy in terrain/cover. Where to find points? I think 2 Pathfinders off each unit would be a good trade for keeping the b-sides in longer. 8 PathFinders down to 6 ought not be too big a difference.

As The Bringer said, good list. Just a couple tweaks needed to be optimum.

Brothererekose wrote:

The Bringer wrote:The retinue does give an extra KP, so you are just as good going with a normal unit. Bottom of page 91 in the 40k Rulebook.

Yeah, Thaylen, the Body Guard do add a KP.

Also, the Shield Gen on the HQ: I'd switch it out for a Shield Drone. Most AP3 weapons or better are high enough STR to cause Instant Death. Better that a ShieldD takes the hit. Also, a Shas'El with Target Array keeps your BS 5, but saves points. Do ya really like that extra wound on the Shas'O?

Broadsides: Railguns are targeted first almost every time as opponents perceive them as such a hard threat. Your team needs Shield Drones if they're going to last more than one or two rounds of being shot at, or at least GunDs if you're certain to deploy in terrain/cover. Where to find points? I think 2 Pathfinders off each unit would be a good trade for keeping the b-sides in longer. 8 PathFinders down to 6 ought not be too big a difference.

As The Bringer said, good list. Just a couple tweaks needed to be optimum.

I thought about dropping to a Shas'El w/ target lock to save points. But I find that the extra leadership point and wound to be worth the extra points. This would go double if I'm packing shield drones as you suggest (a suggestion I am rather inclined to use), once casualty and the unit needs to test for morale. I will also put shield drones on the broadsides, but rather than sacking pathfinders, I think I'd rather drop from body guards to regular elite crisis suits as The bringer suggested.

I will be updating the list in my main post shortly.

Edit: Main post updated to reflect new armylist.

Thaylen wrote: but rather than sacking pathfinders, I think I'd rather drop from body guards to regular elite crisis suits as The bringer suggested.

Right. I forgot that!

List updated to reflect changes. If anyone can think of a better use for 6 points than photon grenades please let me know.

Thaylen wrote:List updated to reflect changes. If anyone can think of a better use for 6 points than photon grenades please let me know.

Possibly a flamer?

The Bringer wrote:

Thaylen wrote:List updated to reflect changes. If anyone can think of a better use for 6 points than photon grenades please let me know.

Possibly a flamer?

What gets to take a flamer for 6 points in the Tau army that isn't a suit??? All of my suits are full up on weapons.

Thaylen wrote:List updated to reflect changes. If anyone can think of a better use for 6 points than photon grenades please let me know.

Since the Photon Grenades might allow your FWs to survive 2 rounds of h2h meaning the enemy gets lose of h2h on *his* turn, I'd dump 'em and just not spend the points. 6 outta 2k ain't much.

Thaylen wrote:

The Bringer wrote:

Thaylen wrote:List updated to reflect changes. If anyone can think of a better use for 6 points than photon grenades please let me know.

Possibly a flamer?

What gets to take a flamer for 6 points in the Tau army that isn't a suit??? All of my suits are full up on weapons.

... Is a Shas'o a suit?... oh well... ...is there such thing as a HW-DC... oh well...

btw, you do want your firewarriors to die as soon as they are assaulted, Brother Erekose is %200 correct on that one...

I had this nid player, and he had a small unit of gaunts, small enough to tie up every unit for 2 turns, not small enough to die. It wiped half of my stinking army, then again, those were the days I hated D-fish with all my heart, cursing the ground over which they flew because I thought they were so bad... I have changed my mind since.

Here are my recommendations:

1. Tau, unlike many other armies, don't really care if the commander dies. He's mostly redundant. This isn't to say that you shouldn't care at all, but I certainly wouldn't spend any points on things like a stim injector. While it is true that the extra wound on the Shas'o might help him live, I have played *a lot* of games with tau and I find that almost every single time the 'El dies from an instant death attack, or if things went wrong he died in HtH, where the extra wound isn't that important anyway. Once he's in HtH, he's never getting out. The one piece of defensive gear I would buy are shield drones. The commander can use 2x and then join with any other elite suit unit and you can allocate wounds there. By dumping the stim injector and photon grenades, you could have a 2nd shield drone on this guy. Make sure that either him or someone in his unit has a BK (another team leader is ok) if you do this.

2. At 2k, you should seriously think about upgrading one of your hammerheads to a 2nd broadside team; either a 2 man team for roughly the same as the HH, or make room elsewhere and get the 3rd suit. At this points level you need to start making sure that you have enough rail shots. Also, you're hitting with 3/4 of your shots instead of only 2/3 when you switch to XV88s. You have enough dakka in the rest of your army to compensate for the loss of the blast templates on your HH. Also, On the XV88s, plasma isn't a terrible option to turn them into mid-late game termie killers or to finish off tac squads, once the important cans have been opened. This is preference though, since the SMS is good against horde.

3. I know some people like stealth suits, but I don't. They're expensive and are largely redundant (offensively speaking) with the rest of your army. If this were my list, I would dump the entire unit and use some of the points (along with sacking the hammerhead) for an XV88 squad indentical to your first. I would use the other points to beef up your FW squads (bring 2 of them to 10 man units so they can be part of the offense if necessary). Alternatively, you could by a kroot squad. I share your pessimism about kroot, but all in all, they're not a bad unit to hold a backfield objective, which you're guaranteed to have in 2/3 of your games. Just put one of the objectives in good cover somewhere, and plant the kroot there.

4. I think you're light on troops. Devilfish are tough and should protect the FWs well, but 3x6 man squads makes me nervous. There are two schools of thought on fire warriors. One says that they should stay min sized and are only used for scoring. The other side says that they pack an amazing punch in sufficient numbers, especially in rapid fire range, and doubly if you can give them a couple of marker lights mid game. I'm of the latter opinion. I run 3x full sized squads at 2k and it's barely enough IMO, even though they are all mounted. I like fish of fury, but not everyone does. It is devastating with two makerlight pips though.

5. If you're just getting started with Tau, I think fireknife XV8 suits are ok, but don't really shine. I think you'll find that in particular against small marine squads, which are theoretically a good target for this unit, will actually get to use wound allocation shennanigans against you in such a way that you will actually get better shooting results if you don't even fire your pods. This isn't always possible for an opponent, but be especially wary when you shoot this at a 3-4 man marine squad that has 1 sergeant, 1 weapon, and 1 or 2 bolters. Same thing goes for termies. Also, there are other configs that can be very dangerous, and since you're using pathfinders, don't forget your deepstrike options with those alternates (such as a 2x man TL FB + Flamer suit, or a 2x man TL flamer + fusion suit). I also really like helios suits, but they are hard to use. Start with the fireknives, but be thinking about what else would have done well for you during your games. The commander especially need not be a fireknife since he has better BS access to the special weapons.

6. On pathfinders, don't forget that cover saves cannot be taken against markerlights so don't be afraid to deploy the PF squad behind a hard unit like your XV88s. Sometimes being in cover prevents you from having the best firing angles, but with a unit that doesn't care about granting cover saves, sometimes mobile cover from a friendly unit is just as good.

All in all, I think you have a pretty good list, and it's obvious you've done your homework.

rmeju wrote:Here are my recommendations:

1. Tau, unlike many other armies, don't really care if the commander dies. He's mostly redundant. This isn't to say that you shouldn't care at all, but I certainly wouldn't spend any points on things like a stim injector. While it is true that the extra wound on the Shas'o might help him live, I have played *a lot* of games with tau and I find that almost every single time the 'El dies from an instant death attack, or if things went wrong he died in HtH, where the extra wound isn't that important anyway. Once he's in HtH, he's never getting out. The one piece of defensive gear I would buy are shield drones. The commander can use 2x and then join with any other elite suit unit and you can allocate wounds there. By dumping the stim injector and photon grenades, you could have a 2nd shield drone on this guy. Make sure that either him or someone in his unit has a BK (another team leader is ok) if you do this.

2. At 2k, you should seriously think about upgrading one of your hammerheads to a 2nd broadside team; either a 2 man team for roughly the same as the HH, or make room elsewhere and get the 3rd suit. At this points level you need to start making sure that you have enough rail shots. Also, you're hitting with 3/4 of your shots instead of only 2/3 when you switch to XV88s. You have enough dakka in the rest of your army to compensate for the loss of the blast templates on your HH. Also, On the XV88s, plasma isn't a terrible option to turn them into mid-late game termie killers or to finish off tac squads, once the important cans have been opened. This is preference though, since the SMS is good against horde.

3. I know some people like stealth suits, but I don't. They're expensive and are largely redundant (offensively speaking) with the rest of your army. If this were my list, I would dump the entire unit and use some of the points (along with sacking the hammerhead) for an XV88 squad indentical to your first. I would use the other points to beef up your FW squads (bring 2 of them to 10 man units so they can be part of the offense if necessary). Alternatively, you could by a kroot squad. I share your pessimism about kroot, but all in all, they're not a bad unit to hold a backfield objective, which you're guaranteed to have in 2/3 of your games. Just put one of the objectives in good cover somewhere, and plant the kroot there.

4. I think you're light on troops. Devilfish are tough and should protect the FWs well, but 3x6 man squads makes me nervous. There are two schools of thought on fire warriors. One says that they should stay min sized and are only used for scoring. The other side says that they pack an amazing punch in sufficient numbers, especially in rapid fire range, and doubly if you can give them a couple of marker lights mid game. I'm of the latter opinion. I run 3x full sized squads at 2k and it's barely enough IMO, even though they are all mounted. I like fish of fury, but not everyone does. It is devastating with two makerlight pips though.

5. If you're just getting started with Tau, I think fireknife XV8 suits are ok, but don't really shine. I think you'll find that in particular against small marine squads, which are theoretically a good target for this unit, will actually get to use wound allocation shennanigans against you in such a way that you will actually get better shooting results if you don't even fire your pods. This isn't always possible for an opponent, but be especially wary when you shoot this at a 3-4 man marine squad that has 1 sergeant, 1 weapon, and 1 or 2 bolters. Same thing goes for termies. Also, there are other configs that can be very dangerous, and since you're using pathfinders, don't forget your deepstrike options with those alternates (such as a 2x man TL FB + Flamer suit, or a 2x man TL flamer + fusion suit). I also really like helios suits, but they are hard to use. Start with the fireknives, but be thinking about what else would have done well for you during your games. The commander especially need not be a fireknife since he has better BS access to the special weapons.

6. On pathfinders, don't forget that cover saves cannot be taken against markerlights so don't be afraid to deploy the PF squad behind a hard unit like your XV88s. Sometimes being in cover prevents you from having the best firing angles, but with a unit that doesn't care about granting cover saves, sometimes mobile cover from a friendly unit is just as good.

All in all, I think you have a pretty good list, and it's obvious you've done your homework.

1. I've thought about dropping the stim injector for the extra shield drone , but I figured the squad is at optimal size it is. The commander is a 2 model unit (him + shield drone). The squad he is joining is also a 2 man unit. No matter how many of the models die the squad will always be above 50%. Adding shield drone requires the bonding knife. The stim injector on the other hand could allow me the option of tarpitting an enemy squad that doesn't have powerweapons if I am about to get overrun. T4 3+ FNP w/ 4 wounds actually has a decent shot of hanging in for a few rounds with a combat squad of marines that is about to get too close to my lines. I'll have to experiment a bit with the configuration to find what I like.

2. I would do this given the chance, but I only have 3 Broadside suits at the moment. As I expand the Army I may consider this.

3. On the matter of stealth suits, I thought that with the stealth field they will be able to only really be engaged by the target they are shooting at. Infiltrate and the fact that S5 is decent at popping rear armor means that they will disrupt enemy formations. I have looked a couple of times at the 20 man kroot squad that comes in about 40 points cheaper. The issue is the kroot just don't offer enough offensively.

4. Part of the reason I have the Suits is they add a good amount of firepower and are more resilient than kroot (far more resilient). They also have a significant amount of mobility.

5. Being a Space Marine player myself (my first army actually), I have wound allocation on several occasions to limit casualties. I have considered this scenario. But the target squad would likely need to be below 5 guys and out of cover. On a similar subject, what would you think of a Plasma/Fusion suit setup (I don't know the names of all of the variants, but if you could make a list of them it would be helpful)? Personal assessment would place them as taking a range hit over the fireknife (Missile Pod/Plasma IIRC). But would be 100% effective vs heavy infantry and gain the ability to puncture heavy armor (getting to melta range however would leave me inside 12" of the vehicle's contents and mean that my suits then die to the landraiders contents in close combat the next turn.

6. Agreed here on all counts.

I'll drop the grenades. I'll have to figure out later what to do with the 6 points.

And thanks for the compliment on my list as well. As I get more stuff and playtest the army I'll leave more comments in this thread. Also, I need to come up with a good paint scheme for my new Army. I was thinking perhaps something in white (a counter part to the color scheme used on my space marines. See my avatar.)

On a side note I just won the auction to get the stuff to field this army. I picked up about 3000k points of tau for about 300 bucks. This list was made using the contents of what was in the auction. (Other units at my disposal but not fielded are about 20 kroot, 4 piranhas, and another devilfish and hammerhead. There were about 50 firewarriors and a slew of drones and bits in the lot as well.) So I think I got a good deal.

I don't fault most of your logic, and I understand the pain of having to pay for 3 more XV88 suits and that you are limited by models. I get your logic about squad numbers and shield drones, although I will offer my opinion that having that second shield drone means that many more las/krak missile shots will not be firing at your fish, HHs, and XV88s, which if even one of those lives for even one more turn will be well worth the points invested in the drone/knife. Like you said though, experiment and see what you like.

On the suit configs, I can't remember them all, but if you google advanced tautica you'll get to a tau dedicated site that has the list. Some of the most common ones are:

1. Fireknife = missile + plasma + multi
2. Helios = plasma + fusion + multi
3. Deathrain = TL missile + target array

The helios, which I mentioned earlier (and so did you, although you didn't know the name) is amazing for killing TEQ and marines. It's even ok at killing assault termies (although what's actually good at that?). The first thing to know about this config is that it's hard to use because of the short range. My personal experience says that it excels mid-late game. The only thing it's probably going to do on turn 1 or 2 is take a potshot with the plasma. After that, though, you murder elite infantry and vehicles if necessary. Similarly, the plasma equipped XV88s can fill this role late game as well, once the vehicles are all dead, and all their shots are twin linked to boot! With regard to the fear of being in charge range of the contents of a transport vehicle you just popped, don't forget 2 important things:

1. You get to jump backwards after you shoot with helios XV8s, so you should normally be outside of charge range unless the transported unit is fleet. It's especially good if you can get to a position that would force them to charge through difficult terrain, which would slow the assaulting unit.
2. Even then, the unit is probably within difficult (not to mention dangerous) terrain of the wreck, or at least the crater, so it should be slowed during the movement phase as well.

For what it's worth, I use a commander that joins my 3 man helios squad. The commander has 2 shield drones, knife, plasma and the CIB, and multitracker. The CIB can't hurt a vehicle, but is exactly as likely to kill a terminator as a fusion blaster because of it's special rules, and it has a longer range which is a welcome addition to any helios unit. It also gives some dakka to the commander against hordes without sacraficing any TEQ killing power, if you like to run all comers lists. Sometimes you just need to shoot a lot of GEQ, and your commander gets 6-7 shots.

On the stealth suits, I have a couple of observations. Against vehicles, you shouldn't count on being able to shoot rear armour, even if you outflank, and certainly not if you just infiltrate. You can *somewhat* reliably shoot side armor either outflanking or infiltrating, but that's not even a guarantee. Even if you were to get all 6 suits in the rear arc of the vehicle, something I have my doubts about reliably doing (especially with the new suits that have large bases) you are getting 1.5 glances and 1.5 pens assuming all of the following: no cover saves from flat out, smoke, or terrain; all suits in the rear arc; and rear AV 10. Also on the stealth suits, I think in a 2000 point game, it's overly optimistic to think that the only thing in return firing range is going to be the target unit. There's simply too many enemy units at that point level to assume that. Further, this unit's stealth rules give it no protection against tank shock, something they are going to be vulnerable to when you're in the back lines. They only have Ld 8 and no weapons worth attempting death or glory. A 35 point rhino or ork trukk/eldar raider with a ram can cause this unit a lot of trouble.

All this is not to say that stealth suits don't have their virtues. They can disrupt formations and force your opponent to protect on both sides from outflankers. But consider an alternative of 2 deepstriking TL flamer + fusion suits, or TL fusion + flamer suits. Both are versitile, cost less than half the points of the stealth squad, probably kill more of the intended target than the stealth suits do, can reroll scatter since you're using pathfinder fish, and are extremely deadly to their intended targets which forces your opponents to deal with them. 2 TL flamers are deadly to horde (or even MEQ, honestly), and 2 TL fusion are deadly to vehicles. The enemy will probably kill them, though. Don't be afraid to land this kind of squad in cover. They have the wounds to suck it up and can use the cover save to good effect. Anyway, that's my 3 cents on stealth suits and the alternatives. I know some people really love them, and you want to experiment, so have at it.

Finally, don't underestimate the resilience of kroot in cover. For 70 points you get a 10 man squad with a 3+ cover save and has a shooting attack that honsetly isn't that much worse than your average space marine. Best of all, it scores. For an even 100 points, you can do 10 kroot + 6 hounds which makes them decent outflankers that can hurt even normal assault marines (maybe a squad of 5-6), and certainly weaker foes. If you can kill the squad of whatever is parked on the enemy backfield objective, the kroot can then sit on it and score there. That will certainly disrupt the enemy advance. Again, I don't normally use kroot, so I don't wag my finger at you for not using them either, but it's one of those "don't knock it 'til you've tried it" type of options.

Another thing from reading your earlier posts is that you don't like fusion pirhanas. I don't use them normally, but they are worth considering. They're fast anti-tank that requires real anti-tank guns to bring down because of AV 11 on the front. They screen well and might die, but for 70 points (including TA + fusion), a single pirhana can force the enemy to dump some firepower into it. This can waste a lot of strength 7-9 shots that would otherwise be firing at your XV88s, hammerheads, etc, especially if it moves flat out. Actually, turboboosting in on turn one and equipping the pirhana with a seeker missile or two for shots on side armor can be a neat and effective trick that opponents don't expect

Anyway, the point of all this rambling is just to remember that the tau do have a lot of options and thinking outside the box with them will be your key to victory. Tau are hard to use and really outdated, but they can win. They unfortunately bleed kill points. Some units are just bad or too situational to ever be useful in an all comers army, but many of the options we have can be leveraged to some good effect. I find that taking units that are specialized and leveraging them against their appropriate targets is what wins me games. Do your experimenting and see what works, and don't be afraid to try XV8 configurations other than fireknives!

Good luck

Thaylen wrote:I've been a long time space marine player and decided that it was finally time to start a second army. I decided to go with tau since they don't look too much harder to paint than space marines (I suck at painting fine detail). I also liked the fluff and playstyle they seem to gravitate towards (mobile shooting). Anyhow the following is what I have come up with for my first list as Tau. Any suggestions and advice (like nitpicking errors such as taking the wrong number of units) would be greatly appreciated.

HQ- Shas'O 137pts
+Missile Pod
+Plasma Rifle
+Drone Controller w/ 1x Shield Drone
+Hardwired Multi-Tracker
+Stimulant Injector

Troops- Fire Warrior Team 180pts
+6x Fire Warriors
+Devilfish
+Smart Missile System
+Targetting Array
+Multi-Tracker
+Disruption Pods

Troops- Fire Warrior Team 60pts
+6x Fire Warriors

Troops- Fire Warrior Team 60pts
+6x Fire Warriors

Fast Attack- Pathfinders 216pts
+8x Pathfinders
+Devilfish
+Smart Missile System
+Targetting Array
+Multi-Tracker
+Disruption Pods

Fast Attack- Pathfinders 216pts
+8x Pathfinders
+Devilfish
+Smart Missile System
+Targetting Array
+Multi-Tracker
+Disruption Pods

Elites- Stealth Team 180pts
+6x Shas'ui

Elites- XV8 "Crisis" Battlesuit Team 196pts
+3x Shas'ui
+3x Missile Pod
+3x Plasma Rifle
+3x Multi-Tracker
+Team Leader Upgrade
+Bonding Knife

Elites- XV8 "Crisis" Battlesuit Team 124pts
+2x Shas'ui
+2x Missile Pod
+2x Plasma Rifle
+2x Multi-Tracker

Heavy Support- Broadside Battlesuit Team 285pts
+3x Shas'ui
+1x Team Leader Upgrade
+1x Target Lock for Team Leader
+3x Advanced Stabilization Systems
+Drone controller for Team Leader
+2x Shield drones.
+Bonding Knife

Heavy Support- Hammer Head 170pts
+Railgun
+2x Burst Cannons
+Multi-Tracker
+Target Lock
+Disruption Pods

Heavy Support- Hammer Head 170pts
+Railgun
+2x Burst Cannons
+Multi-Tracker
+Target Lock
+Disruption Pods

[1994pts]

Basically, I would start the two pathfinder teams in spots with good lines of site. And put their dedicated devilfishes right next to the two unmounted firewarriors so they can jump in on turn one. The broadsides and hammerheads would pop vehicles with the assitance of the pathfinders. The stealth suits and multitude of burst cannons on my tanks can shred infantry and the 2 squads of crisis suits will attempt to help in neutralizing AV10-11 vehicles and elite infantry. If targets of opprotunity present themselves, the hammerheads can target clumped infantry and the pathfinders can attempt to pin units approaching the broadsides (one will fire markerlights, and the other will fire carbines [a last ditch effort, I know]).

I'm not sure about fielding kroot. And I couldn't find the points to spare for piranhas (I have burst cannons aplenty in the army and fusion guns are far to short range for my tastes).

As I said earlier, any recommendations on improving this list would be appreciated. As would any bits of tau tactics that you can spare. As always, thanks for taking the time to give this a read.

Edit: Dropped bodyguard to regular elites choice suits. I used the points gained from this to get shield drones and a bonding knife for the broadsides. Put a bonding knife on the 3 man Crisis Suits (2 man team doesn't need one since the they only have 2 members). I also dropped the commander's shield generator for a shield drone. I then had 6 points left over and bought photon grenades for the firewarriors with the dedicated devilfish (odds favor them being on the forward most objective). This brings the list to an even 2000 points.

I'm going to assume you're trying to make a competitive tournament list in my critique. If not then disregard and play what you like about the army, just don't complain when you run into a tournament army and get tabled . Tau currently suffer as an older codex from having basically a build and a half.

I'll let you know now that you've got way too many points invested in bad transports and terrible troops. Kroot are barely okay but they're still a lot better than firewarriors will be until a new codex hits the shelves. I understand the need for devilfish but just run them as a dumbfish (fish + disruption pod and done). That'll save you 105 points right off the bat. You need screening units or else you'll never survive against fast infantry armies such as SM bikes, nob bikes, wazzdakka bikes, or jump packs from DE, BA, or cavalry spam from SW or daemons. It IS easy to demech people as tau, but when you have to sacrifice units over 100 points to keep the parts of your army that are good alive you're really spending too much.

Stealth suits are bad, that's all there is to it. Learning to use a bad unit well does not make said bad unit good, just dump them and take an actual useful unit like t/l missile pod suits or missile pod/plasma suits. It I'm sorry but they're overpriced and an equal points worth of suits will always do you better in the long run for the simple reason that the stealth suits don't know where they want to be. Do they want to be close? Then their field is worthless. Do they want to be far away? Then they can't shoot anything. Bad units are bad, don't bother with them.

Thaylen wrote:1. I've thought about dropping the stim injector for the extra shield drone , but I figured the squad is at optimal size it is. The commander is a 2 model unit (him + shield drone). The squad he is joining is also a 2 man unit. No matter how many of the models die the squad will always be above 50%. Adding shield drone requires the bonding knife. The stim injector on the other hand could allow me the option of tarpitting an enemy squad that doesn't have powerweapons if I am about to get overrun. T4 3+ FNP w/ 4 wounds actually has a decent shot of hanging in for a few rounds with a combat squad of marines that is about to get too close to my lines. I'll have to experiment a bit with the configuration to find what I like.

This is technically right math but bad logic when taking into consideration what you're likely to face in a tuned army. Namely str 8+. You need the ablative wounds to handle long fangs for the 2 turns it will take you to reduce their effectiveness to tolerable levels. That or you need very clever screening to completely block LoS (doable but that's more difficult than you might think especially when you're first starting out with Tau). 9 times out of 10 you'll want to be overrun in CC. Getting locked in their turn and not being able to shoot them while losing combat in YOUR assault phase is a nightmare, just skip it and let the commander die, keep him cheaper and you'll have a better list.

Your heavy support section is fine, that's a decent way to run it as the large blasts can really be useful against a variety of targets and when combined with the burst cannons can even put a hurt on marines that are wandering too close.

Your fast attack section has a lot to be desired though. I can understand why you wouldn't see the use of piranhas. I didn't at first either. Today though they are what allow my suits, kroot, and fishes to survive long enough to do the damage that I need them to. The gun drone squad you get acts as a further screen for the important parts of your army and can occasionally kill a couple things. The fusion blasters on the piranha are also a threat that has to be dealt with before your suits can really be targeted, giving you more time to whittle down your opponents forces. As you get more experience they can even cut down on the movement of jump pack troops or skimming vehicles either forcing the vehicles to move over 12 and not shoot, or cutting their normal movement down to 6-8 inches closer to your lines.

That's all for now.

With all due respect, Mr. Drum Machine

The term "save" usually means something that was lost, was recovered. "Saving" 105 points is hardly the term I would use for down-grading the Warfish. You "get" 105 points, but you lose a good deal of firepower, better bs, and maneuverability while firing. I think that unless you have a much better use of those points, its better to have a warfish.

Stealth suits are bad for many, but something that I learned while playing Tau is that sometime, in the cases of stealth suits mainly, people's success can greatly vary. It is a combination of not only playing style, but also the opponents you regularly play. I tend to only give the warning that Stealth suits can be bad for some, and good for others. If Thaylen finds that they don't work for him, he shouldn't use them. If he finds that they are necessary, he should use them. Don't criticize something as pointless because it doesn't work for you.

That's all for now.

The Bringer wrote:With all due respect, Mr. Drum Machine

The term "save" usually means something that was lost, was recovered. "Saving" 105 points is hardly the term I would use for down-grading the Warfish. You "get" 105 points, but you lose a good deal of firepower, better bs, and maneuverability while firing. I think that unless you have a much better use of those points, its better to have a warfish.

Stealth suits are bad for many, but something that I learned while playing Tau is that sometime, in the cases of stealth suits mainly, people's success can greatly vary. It is a combination of not only playing style, but also the opponents you regularly play. I tend to only give the warning that Stealth suits can be bad for some, and good for others. If Thaylen finds that they don't work for him, he shouldn't use them. If he finds that they are necessary, he should use them. Don't criticize something as pointless because it doesn't work for you.

That's all for now.

First I'd like to direct you to the part of my post that says my criticism is strictly geared toward competitive/tournament play. If you want to play for fluff, for fun, for a league, for a campaign, go nuts.

The points spent on all the worthless upgrades to make an overpriced transport an even more overpriced transport that can shoot worse than any other dedicated shooting transport in the game are "saved" from being wasted on said upgrades. The shots you lose from downgrading to dumbfish is easily offset by the crisis suits you're able to protect better, or buy with the saved points. 2 Death rain suits with either targeting arrays for 1 point more than the warfish upgrades, or with flamers for 9 points less, or 15 kroot or 10 kroot and 5 hounds or a broadside or. or. or or. will all contribute more to your force than extraneous upgrades to vehicles that are only worth blocking movement/line of sight and getting a troops choice on a mid field objective.

Second stealth suits are bad. There are a lot of really terrible players and using bad units against them may make them seem good, but you take those bad units against a good player with a good army and you'll see how worthless they really are for how overpriced they are. Tau is suffering from its age and that leaves very few options and if you really want to take your game to the next level you have to start with dropping crappy units like stealth suits.

MrDrumMachine wrote:
Second stealth suits are bad. There are a lot of really terrible players and using bad units against them may make them seem good, but you take those bad units against a good player with a good army and you'll see how worthless they really are for how overpriced they are. Tau is suffering from its age and that leaves very few options and if you really want to take your game to the next level you have to start with dropping crappy units like stealth suits.

I agree that it could be a problem if players couldn't differentiate between a unit that works well and one that doesn't work well. That would be a true problem. However, there are some experienced players who think they work rather well, and so I will leave it go there. I have not had extreme success with Stealth Suits, but I respect those that do.

I used to be vehemently opposed to Skyrays, Devilfish, and Stealth Suits. About six months ago, I had this huge discussion over Skyrays, and I finally am convinced they aren't crap. Devilfish, I found through my own experience that even though they are expensive, they are a necessity, and greatly aid my army, though expensive. And Stealth Suits, I had to learn through many people saying that they do indeed work, to actually believe that they do.

Let this player decide for himself whether stealth suits actually work.


I think that 35 points spent to make the warfish could be more effective than 35 points spent on a crisis suit mean to be Anti-Infantry. 35 points would get you a crisis suit with a burst cannon.


I respect that you are trying to help this individual with what you believe is correct.


EDIT:

I just went to ATT for some insightful advice on the matter. Those that use stealth suits say the stealth generators can mainly be used to get you close to the enemy. Also, JSJ still works fine with stealth suits, and so you can still jump them back to a point where they would benefit from their stealth generator, or just jump them behind terrain and not worry about anything.

Thanks for they help guys.

What would you guys think of considering dropping the stealth suits to beef all of the firewarriors up to 12 man strength?

Thaylen wrote:Thanks for they help guys.

What would you guys think of considering dropping the stealth suits to beef all of the firewarriors up to 12 man strength?

Sounds like a plan, I dislike stealth suits, they arent as effective as you may think. I would beef up the fire warriors to make them more durable and that can only be a good thing. You are also replacing them in terms of firepower so thats not an issue.

Sounds good, I see no problem with that at all.

With your 64 points to play with, you can add a fireknife to your one crisis team, and you will have two points to spare.

Unfortunately, I'm at the maximum number of suits I have (6 Crisis/ 3 Broadside) Seeing as I just spent a few hundred to get the models for this army, I think it will be a little bit before I can purchase new models.

I've been reading a little bit of the Advanced Tau Tactica website (Really good stuff for a budding Tau player) And their article on the hammer head makes me wonder if burst cannons are really a good weapon choice (they are however the cheapest). The fact that I have to stay at less than 6" of movement to use them is kinda dangerous if I am w/in 18" of an enemy. I'm starting to think the SMS might be better for the longer range. The drones have less firepower but w/ the multi-tracker, they can still fire when the vehicle moves at cruising speed (only problem is they would make me bleed killpoints).

this army looks almost exactly like my 2k list! I like 2x10 kroot instead of the stealth suits to guard the broadsides/hammerheads.

The army finally arrived in the mail today. I'll have to play a few games this weekend. And then the long journey of painting all of these models begins.

So, 4 games later my Tau list is undefeated. I faced 4 different space marine opponents (one of them being a walking marine army which was an auto-win) 2 mechanized armies , and a biker army. The list evolved a bit.

The fire warriors went to 3 squads of 9.
Kept the 2 8 man pathfinder squads(These things are very much worth their points)
HQ Death Rain suit w/ stim injector and other toys. (2 shield drones)
5 crisis suits (deathrain config for all bonding knife on the 3 man squad)
All tanks: I have determined that 18" range on bust cannons is crap w/ JSJ. Using SMS for all tanks
Broadsides will be dropping the advanced stabilization system and going with the targetting array. I only used the A.S.S. once to fire some smart missiles at some scouts in dawn of war.
Added a small 10man kroot squad w/ 1 kroot hound (I have used these for flanking protection to rear element disruption tactics) only 76 points still dies to 5 space marines about half the time.
Dropped Stealth suits (I am now in full agreement that these things aren't worth the paper their entry is printed on)

If there is any interest I will post the full specs on my 2k Point list.


How the games went. Game one was vs a walking space marine army he had one rhino and one LR at 1500points. Both transports were in flames by T1. Termy squad ate plasma death by T2 and the dread was a smoking wreck on turn 3. Capture points mission w/ Pitched battle deployment.

Game 2 was significantly harder we moved up to 2k points and my opponent was a heavily mechanized army now. 2 Vindis, Rhino, Razorback, Deepstriking termies and jump packs plus assault termies in the LR. He got the first turn in a DOW capture/ control setup that hurt me bad. the lost of turn one shooting w/ bad positions due to walking on the board cost me precious time in getting lines of fire open. The suits actually made use of the A.S.S. system but I found many a time I was wishing for the targetting array. Only bad rolls on dificult terrain saved my broadsides from terminator death. I lost a few units to being assaulted by a captain and termies. This was a much closer game and no one could sieze the other's objective I won based on killpoints but only just (kroot taking down the jump packer squad for the game winning KP).

Game 3 however was at a significant advantage to me. Killpoints w/ Spearhead deployment. I drew first turn and deployed deep inside my deployment zone. By the end of turn one I had immobilized 1 vindi. Wrecked another. Exploded both his rhino and his landraider and killed his dreadnought. And I had a squad of kroot barrelling down on his tactical combat squad w/ the missile launcher. We played a few turns to see how his deepstriking units would preform but after they were mopped up by mass fire he ceded the game on turn 3.

Game 4 was vs a different opponent. This one was using my own space marine army against me and created a biker list w/ devastator support and deepstriking termies. Not a single vehicle in sight for my 285point broadside squad to fire on. I had some relief in that I again drew first tun w/ the spearhead deployment. The mission was seize ground w/ 2 points placed as far in each of our deployment zones as possible. He ended up running forward w/ the bikes in a mad dash to reach my gunline. He blew up a devilfish w/ a multi-melta and shot up a firewarrior squad over the course of the game. For the first time one of my crisis suits was actually targetted by boltgun fire (but only lost one guy that was weakend due to difficult terrain from it. The broadsides were extremely ineffectual only being able to shoot bikes and single infantry and my pathfinders really didn't get to come into play until turn 3. The game was a dead heat until I finnally cracked his bike squads removing all scoring capability from his side. The kroot attmpted to pull the infiltrate and go after the heavy weapon teams technique but they were beaten down by a 5 man devastor squad (I did drop the squad down to 1 missile and 1 sergeant). The game ended w/ both remaining devilfish carrying firewarriors on my home-side objectives and him owning no troops. This was not quite as bloody for me as the previous game, but the T5 on the bikes was horrendous on the kill rate of my firewarriors (It may have been bad luck but even w/ 2 marker light pips a douple tap from 9 firewarriors would only drop 1-2 bikes (never mind, mathhammering shows the average to be around 2-3 (weighted towards 2)).


Things I think I've learned:
Stealth suits are made of suck!!!
I fold horribly in close combat (duh)
Full bike squads are REALLY resilient.
Smart Missiles are awesome. (This goes double for nightfight)
For a cheap 70pt Thow-away unit, Kroot are amazing but can be made of suck at times (If infiltrated behind my lines enemy that have to deal with them are diverted from my main force.

At a glance when looking at the codex I saw the heavy weapon part on pathfinder's markerlights and I thought that they were really gimped. But after using them well. I think that having these be assault weapons would be insanely overpowered. As they are they can be a devastating force multiplier

My only part of my list I really feel the need to experiment on is the kroot squad. I may try messing with using a fusion piranha for blocking and possible lucky tank hunting. Or getting another pathfinder squad and moving the 3rd dedicated transport over to them (right now 2 of my 3 FW squads are using pathfinder warfish for transport). This is about 76 points of wiggle-room. And I have found the kroot to be a good toolbox unit (one game I even threatened to infiltrated them blocking my short board edge in spearhead to keep my enemy from outflanking w/ his close combat scouts to charge my broadsides and pathfinders. I managed to convince him to infiltrate instead and then put them behind his forces after the scout threat eliminated.

If you have read all the way through this wall of text, thank you. Any thought and insights would be greatly appreciated. I'll continue to post on the exploits of my Tau but that will be confined to weekends as school starts monday.

I'm surprised at how much you like SMS. Its nice, but I haven't seen a reaction like that.

Its nice to see that you won 4 games in a row.

Apparently you are one of those people who hates stealth suits. Sell them on eBay while you can

The Bringer wrote:I'm surprised at how much you like SMS. Its nice, but I haven't seen a reaction like that.

Initially, I went with SMS every time for the first 3 years I played tau and was I happy enough.

Thaylen, you may have a point in liking SMS more than BCs, as 5e is a faster game, meaning less time between shooting the enemy and then having him assault the tank. SMS will give that much more of a safety margin.

Brothererekose wrote:

The Bringer wrote:I'm surprised at how much you like SMS. Its nice, but I haven't seen a reaction like that.

Initially, I went with SMS every time for the first 3 years I played tau and was I happy enough.

Thaylen, you may have a point in liking SMS more than BCs, as 5e is a faster game, meaning less time between shooting the enemy and then having him assault the tank. SMS will give that much more of a safety margin.

It is more of the fact that is a far superior weapon against a faster foe. Vs Jetpacks and bikes you cannot use the burst cannon w/o being assaulted. SMS gives you the ability to engage faster enemies from safety. And vs traditional demechanized foes, you can have an even greater safezone to keep firing on them while maintaining the use of disruption pods.