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Been kicking around some Demon lists in 1750 playtests, settled on this. Still very open to criticism/comments so have at it!

The Masque
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Bolt, We are Legion and Master of Sorcery
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Bolt, We are Legion and Master of Sorcery
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Bolt, We are Legion and Master of Sorcery

6 Fiends w/ 1 Unholy Might
6 Fiends w/ 1 Unholy Might
6 Fiends w/ 1 Unholy Might

5 Horrors w/ Bolt
5 Horrors w/ Bolt
5 Horrors w/ Bolt
5 Horrors w/ Bolt
5 Horrors w/ Bolt
5 Horrors w/ Bolt and Changeling

10 Screamers

Total = 1735


Masque is for Dreadnoughts and HW units, being able to spin a walker or drop Long Fangs behind LoS blocking terrain is a great help. Heralds are tank poppers and Gaze is useful for burning down a Tactical Squad per turn, all on the cheap.

Fiends are the well known killers, I've found spamming them is the only way to get a return on the investment. They help with Mech quite a bit, especially when able to multi-assault and they're a great answer for deathstars like Nob Bikers.

Horrors are my favorite Troops. They put out a lot of shots, help with Mech and don't take much punishment because of all the Fiends.

Screamers I take for Mech because I like the multi-assault element, the speed (Skimmers) and they keep my theme of making big guns less effective. They're also pretty easy to hide, although two groups of 5 might be better, not sure.

I have 15 points left, but not much I can buy with that I can see.

Suggestions?

Wow this is almost identical to my 1850 list.

I do think you need more scoring units.

I am no fan of screamers however for similar points I would take princes with wings and might to hunt tanks and take care of dreads.

Why no fan of Screamers? I haven't got to use them much yet but on paper they seem effective and I just don't think Grinders can survive in the current environment, especially when you add in rolling for Waves and Reserves. Most armies just bring to much Melta or S9-10 and getting a model that size a save is not always doable.

I think that apart from mech hunting they then fail to have any other role except tar pit.

I prefer tz princes in that role. I was just about to post my Daemon army at 1850, check it out and let me know what you think.

I would def prefer Princes but I don't have the points to pick up 3 and give them all Mark and Bolt. I got a few more test games in, revised my list so gimme your opinion on the second draft.

Well I would aprechiate some feed back on my list as well.

check it out and see how 2 winged TZ princes fit just fine.

More asking for anyones opinion, not just yours.

Every unit is easy to kill, and therefore easily defeated. Super competitive lists are focused on units that are HARD to kill. DS with all fragile units is rough to win with. This is a tough nut to crack...


HQ

Bloodthirster
-unholy might or death strike (your preference. I prefer might)
270pts

Fateweaver
333pts


TROOP

11 plaguebearers
165pts

10 plaguebearers
150pts

11 bloodletters
176pts

11 bloodletters
176pts


ELITE

5 bloodcrushers
-fury
-icon
-instrument
240pts

5 bloodcrushers
-fury
-icon
-instrument
240pts


TOTAL
1750pts


Wave 1

Bloodthirster
Fateweaver
Bloodcrushers
11 Plaguebearers

Reserve

Bloodcrushers
Plaguebearers
Bloodletters
Bloodletters



First wave is your Tough units that will be near impossible to kill.

Fateweaver giving your squads reroll failed saves.

Bloodcrushers w/ rerolled saves, wound allocation, icon = rest of army coming down next to them right in the middle of the battle.

11 plaguebearers come down on an objective to hold. 5 toughness + FNP are the codex's best unit to swamp objectives and hold them throughout the game.

Bloodthirster is your most vulnerable unit in the first wave. He can shrug off alot of shots if he is able to DS near Fateweaver. If he lives, he's going to rampage units.



Reserves


Bloodletters and another TOUGH bloodcrushers squad should get down with the icon in other BC squad.

Plagues can come down by icon if obj needs taking or comes down on other objs on the board.

I think we are already aware Fate Crusher is the top Daemon list. Is there no ldaemon ist that can compete without him?

I honestly don't think that's a very strong list in terms of top competition, FateCrusher has it's own weaknesses and auto loses if Fateweaver dies, which is not an impossibility. Not looking for such a drastic change either but thanks for the reply.

I don't think fatecrusher is all that good.... mainly because of the 6" range of his power.......

I think that original list is ok, i personally would use bigger squads of Horrors....And split the screamers into 2 units

Why do you give all of your heralds master of sorcery if you are only giving them one shooting attack? And we are legion for that matter...unless you're assaulting with your heralds which I doubt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that is a crap ton of fiends...i love it! I've been thinking about going that way myself...Personally I like soulgrinders and daemon princes...and I don't care for the Masque...I'd rather you put the skulltaker in with a unit of letters.

I still think you don't need 3 unit's of fiends I would recommend swapping one of them for crushers or flamers. A 4 man unit of crusher wound allocation style would put you at 1745. To go flamers you would either add 5 more screamers or possibly drop a horror squad and stick in a daemon prince.

I would recommend splitting the screamers. Mainly for tank shock, that way if you put multiple units in front of the land raider each squad gets a death or glory attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shenra wrote:Why do you give all of your heralds master of sorcery if you are only giving them one shooting attack? And we are legion for that matter...unless you're assaulting with your heralds which I doubt?

They come with daemonic gaze as a default.

Now, I like Horrors as much as the next man, but I would drop some and replace them with Flamers, or maybe some Plaguebearers...

I will try a unit of Flamers out this weekend if I can, but I don't like them on paper. Their power is so short ranged they have to land perfectly for an immediate shot. They also rely on Masque to do the most damage, and she's usually high on the kill list for my opponent. I really like Breath, I just don't like the delivery system. Really wish I could slap Breath on Heralds instead but it doesn't work out so well.

I've tried Crushers, honestly I think they're so so. Really tough, but they're very slow and that just bothers me. Most armies can kill them without Fateweaver and they're a lot harder to hide then Fiends because of the footprint. I'd be willing to try them again, always more play testing to do.

Agree with splitting the Screamers up. I wouldn't be broken hearted to lose 1 Horror unit, but I don't want to drop more unless it's for Troops.

It's been said that fiends are the best elites choice in the book, plaguebearers the best troops choice, MoT princes the best heavy support, flesh hounds the best fast attack and T. Heralds the best HQ. But it's not always that simple right?

I run flamers. I like flamers. And I will be the first to tell you that if your opponent is running Mech they are a pointless waste of 105pts per squad. They are absolutely outstanding against horde armies like 'nids, orks, and stuff that has its troops sitting around. If your opponent hides them in a transport they're done. Sure you can fly up and glance the tank, but the next turn the troops will just get out and either shoot you to death or assault you to death. And if you blow up the transport? same issue.

Bloodcrushers are good - I run them for my thrid elites slot - but they are so dang slow. Mishapping depends on your deepstrike placement and the level of terrain. I've never had it happen when it wouldn't happen normally so I feel the footprint thing is mostly crap. Yes they are slow, but you can deepstrike into range right? > depends on the situation. And they can only kill troops and low armor tanks.

Fiends are the best because they kill everything, are cheaper in points cost than either the flamers or the bloodcrushers, can deepstrike far enough away to still make it into assault, and kill everything through weight of attacks. The fiends are absolutely perfect just the way you have them.

Horrors aren't good at holding objectives. I ran a similar set up to yours with multiple small squads and they still die. Best to take atleast two squads of plaguebearers that will still be there come turn 5. Get some MoT DP's with Bolt and Gaze - they do the same job as your horrors and are infinitely more survivable.

Don't run Screamers - they just aren't that survivable. A single meltabomb attack just isn't worth it. Most people will be moving their tanks around so you need 4+ or 6 to even hit the dang thing. That's if you get there. Take the points and put them into getting some demons princes. Those two quick changes put you at 215pts towards the demon princes. Cut a fiend out of every squad and you're basically there.

I'm actually thinking Bloodletters might be the best choice for objectives. PBs of course have great survivability, but their offense is so-so on the best days. In most missions I get to drop at least a few of the objectives, this means I can put them in cover, or behind something that blocks a ton of LoS. Bloodletters are really hard to move off such an objective. I can Go to Ground for a 3++ on a T4 body, so they either need to be assaulted off, or Tank Shocked. Even receiving an assault they're pretty rough neck, and I have a decent bit of shooting to stop rampant Tank Shocks.

I'd just rather have units that are ALWAYS a threat. If the games not Objectives, PBs suck. I wouldn't say Flamers are 100% worthless against Mech, you can get units out of their rides with other parts of your army, but they become much more reliant on help. I'd rather keep my Elites as is, or drop 1 unit for Crushers. Horde armies are already such a great pairing for Demons, I'm more worried about Mech. Crushers can be a nice mobile terrain feature because of their footprint, but they can also be hampered by it depending on the board.

Overall I'm just looking to keep an aggressive style with enough shooting to get the job done and prevent people from running circles around me.

Your lists and thinking seem sound, i would if you stay close to the original list maybe cut back on units of horrors and either bump up what you have or take a few other scoring units like the PB's. The biggest thing that I see with daemons is that more then any other army, a good run of bad luck bones you.

Yeah I see that I went overboard on Horrors. Their Bolt doesn't have a good BS, I'm better off working Princes in so I can get extra combat muscle and keep the Mech hate. I think a problem right now is I'm way to shooting heavy, if I get my second wave I'll only have 1 combat threat. That's not good, especially if they scatter badly. Need to find a good balance between enough Bolts, and enough combat threats. To used to playing with a shooting army mindset, where Demons can easily open up a vehicle if I stop the shooting or moving for a turn.

PBs suck at KP games????

Those PBs are just another unit your opponent won't be getting a KP from.

Bloodletters are a horrible unit to hold an objective. They are an offensive unit. You pay dbl the points than PBs for a reason.



Why would you post for help and then deny what everyone on this thread is trying to tell you...?

Because I enjoy making up my own opinions and not blindly following what everyone says. Nice to bounce ideas, I don't treat Dakka replies as dogma.