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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)



I'm finally getting enough regular WH40K games to form some strong opinions about what I like/dislike about certain units and army builds.

I play all of my games right now in weekly three game tournaments. The tournaments vary in points from 1500 to 2500. The games have time limits so most games end on Turn 3 or 4. The short game length certainly plays a role in my list building. Reserves and Outflanking are less useful and staying off the board on Turn 1 when the enemy has the first move isn't quite as desirable.
The scenarios are usually those from the rule book except that Dawn of War is infrequently used.

The typical opponents thus far are: Dark Eldar (raider/ravager/Wych heavy), IG (foot or mech), Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Demons (Fatecrusher), Tau mech, Eldar mech, and Ork Cyborg. There was also a generic SM Biker army with a LR with termies and two Devastators. I haven't seen a Necron army, Lash or Double Lash army, or an Ork Green Tide list yet. There are some Tyranid armies but I have yet to face them so I'm not sure how they are built.

The terrain tends toward about four pieces per table with a tendency towards a few hills (roughly a foot to a foot and a half in diameter), some tall buildings that aren't very wide, a few small fortified (3+ save) buildings, and the occasional area cover that grants a 4+ save. So cover isn't very common. You certainly aren't going to be able to move through it to get into assault range. At some point, assault troops will always be exposed in the open.

So given these conditions, I find that I like the following units because they're usually effective:

HQ: CCS with regimental standard and three plasma guns in a Chimera that has a hull heavy flamer.

Troops: 3-5 veteran squads with either three melta guns or three plasma guns in a Chimera with hull heavy flamers or heavy bolters (I like a minimum of four Chimeras with hull heavy flamers in my list and then the remaining Chimeras have hull heavy bolters). I like two squad with meltas and the rest have plasma guns. In the local metagame, you can't possible have too many plasma weapons.

Troops: Infantry Platoon with PCS that has two flamers and a MB. The platoon has 3-4 infantry squads with grenade launchers. One squad has a commissar with a power weapon. Two to three of the sergeants have power weapons and MBs. It depends on the number of squads. One squad leader is always bare (no upgrades) because he is the one that dies first when the "Blob" fails a morale check.

Fast: One or two Vendettas (bare, no sponson heavy bolters) that carry the PCS and one infantry squad

Heavy: Squadron of two Griffons with hull heavy flamers
Heavy: Squadron of one or two Hydras
Heavy: Plasma Executioner with plasma cannon sponsons and a hull heavy bolter

In the local metagame, I find that my 1500 point list seems most effective. At 2000 points and above, I simply run out of room to deploy everything effectively. Given the short game lengths (3-4 turns), anything in Reserve won't get much (if any) of an impact on the game.

Orders are critically important so I keep the CCS near the center of my army and within 12" of most of my infantry. This is even important for the mechvets because they need the reroll for pinning tests (from the regimental standard) when their Chimeras explode. I also use a pair of wooden cubes with the six orders written on them so that I always remember to give orders. All six orders are useful (even Incoming!!!).

Melta is just as good as advertised in the many Dakka 40K army list discussions but Vendettas, Chimera Multi-lasers, Hydra autocannons, and the Griffon Heavy Mortars tend to wreck/destroy AV 10 and AV 11 vehicles before the melta guns get to them.

Against AV12-14 is when the Vendetta and melta guns earn their money, but I also find in games that only last 3-4 turns, I can usually ignore some enemy vehicles in order to focus on killing all enemy troop units and any vehicles that are fast enough to contest my objectives by Turn 3.

The "Blob" with three squads, a commissar, three PWs, and two MBs is extremely useful. In the infrequent Dawn of War game, I like to put it in the center of the table (when I win the roll off for deployment and first move) so that the enemy is setting up within 6" of his table edge. I also like to use it to hold my objective in Capture and Control missions. The odd situation is when we play Seize Ground. In that case, depending on the opponent, I may run the squads separately instead of blobbing them. Most enemy armies have a difficult time capturing or even contesting four or five objectives. I've got a good chance of at least getting a draw in that scenario though Eldar Wave Serpents have given me difficulties.

The two things that really have stood out for me so far is that plasma is worth the point cost. The first point is that GW had a good reason for making plasma guns 15 points each. They're just that good. The second thing is that the Chimera offers a wonderful drive by shooting ability with the rear hatch that serves as a fire point for five shooters. Three BS4 plasma gunners within 12 inches of enemy squads are devastating. The two rapid fire lasguns are just icing on the cake. It gets even better when you have two or three squads like that nearby. I've gunned down Abbadon, Asdrubal, Demon Princes, and nearly ruined entire squads of Space Marines. The key point is to keep your Chimeras fairly close to each other.

There are two other points that active players already know but that less experienced players need to learn: target priority and which weapon(s) to fire first, second, third, etc. I find that killing the enemy's most fearsome unit isn't really necessary. It depends on the scenario and the location of the unit on the table. I am learning to assume that I can't kill everything (especially in three turns) so I have to kill the most mobile units that are closest to the objectives. Given multiple targets in that category I prefer to target troop units.

Having selected the targets that are most important to me, I like to start with orders (because the rules require it), then use Hydras, Vendettas, and Chimeras to pop transports. Once the enemy is forced to disembark, I use the Large Blast (Griffons) and Small Blast (Plasma Executioner) template weapons against the densely packed models. Finally, I fire the plasma guns and melta guns from the top hatches of my Chimeras (passengers can fire at separate targets from the transport vehicles).

Against armies that don't have many vehicles, I allocate weapons to kill his troop units that are either moving toward my objectives or sitting on his objectives. But I can't hit everything so I like to target units near the objectives that I need in order to win. So in a four objective game, I only care about three of the objectives - usually the three closest to my army. The one exception thus far is SW Long Fangs. Those guys are very dangerous so I tend to target them early with my Griffons. Most players around here use five model squads so I have had some success at bringing squads down to three models and causing Fall Back checks. They fail these often enough that Long Fangs haven't cost me a win yet.

I've got many months of gaming ahead and I have yet to fight quite a few builds. I may find that my core list isn't balanced enough but so far I'm getting very comfortable with it and I can easily visualize what will work or not work against the armies that I play against most often. New enemy builds will upset the apple cart but at least I know what my army is capable of even if I don't truly understand my opponent's force.

Thoughts? What works for you? How is your local metagame different or similar? How does the meta affect your tactics?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/24 05:47:26


The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk






Well in my meta we generally get to play 5, 6 or 7 turns.
Even taking into account the times we run turn limits we generally have enough time to complete a full game.
This will of course have a huge impact on lists, if i knew i was only playing 3-4 turns then i'd run a very different list.

How long are these timed games BTW that they only last 3-4 turns?

WLD: 221 / 6 / 5

5 Dragons 2011: 2nd Overall

DT:80+S++G++M+B+I+Pw40k96++D++A++/mR+++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

dayve110 wrote:Well in my meta we generally get to play 5, 6 or 7 turns.
Even taking into account the times we run turn limits we generally have enough time to complete a full game.
This will of course have a huge impact on lists, if i knew i was only playing 3-4 turns then i'd run a very different list.

How long are these timed games BTW that they only last 3-4 turns?


1.5 - 2 hours which includes the time to read the scenarios and set up the armies. Four turns is more common than three.


The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

Any tournament (I'm assuming its a tournament if its timed) that doesn't get the majority of games to turn 5 either needs to either allow more time (2.5 hours for 2000pts usually works) or play games at smaller points limits. Don't take this personally, but shooting lists like the one you are using have such a massive advantage if you only get 3-4 turns in that you are almost guaranteed of getting the win. Any kind of assault or close ranged shooting based list hasn't got a hope as they won't get in close enough to do damage fast enough and any reserve or other such sneaky lists won't arrive in time either. The only thing which threatens you would be other shooty lists, and other than Tau and another IG list they wouldn't be able to stand up to you.
   
Made in us
Navigator





Thief River Falls MN

You really should reduce your multiple themes of guard to 1 or 2. Putting blobs with mech and tossing in air calv and arty makes things a bit wonky to work with.

If you want that many troops just toss them in chimeras. Dawn of war just blob them and have the chimeras come in on their own chasing things down. Keeping a huge footprint on a blob squad while trying to maneuver other things is just a bitch.

Other than that dont see anything really out of place. Id rather have bassies than the griffons but thats personal preference. Long fang spam is the bane of mech guard and bassies are pretty good meq killers.

Oh I come from a land, from a faraway space
Where the caravan shuttles roam
Where the war is immense
And the fights are intense
It's barbaric, but hey, it's home

Imperium nights
Like Imperium days
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Powerguy wrote:Any tournament (I'm assuming its a tournament if its timed) that doesn't get the majority of games to turn 5 either needs to either allow more time (2.5 hours for 2000pts usually works) or play games at smaller points limits. Don't take this personally, but shooting lists like the one you are using have such a massive advantage if you only get 3-4 turns in that you are almost guaranteed of getting the win. Any kind of assault or close ranged shooting based list hasn't got a hope as they won't get in close enough to do damage fast enough and any reserve or other such sneaky lists won't arrive in time either. The only thing which threatens you would be other shooty lists, and other than Tau and another IG list they wouldn't be able to stand up to you.


It actually depends on the mission. If the mission is objective based, a quick moving army can grab objectives and just hope to not die.

The real point is that 4 turn games are pretty far from most of our experiences. I'd stick with lower model count armies, and focus on alpha striking.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

Powerguy wrote:Any tournament (I'm assuming its a tournament if its timed) that doesn't get the majority of games to turn 5 either needs to either allow more time (2.5 hours for 2000pts usually works) or play games at smaller points limits. Don't take this personally, but shooting lists like the one you are using have such a massive advantage if you only get 3-4 turns in that you are almost guaranteed of getting the win. Any kind of assault or close ranged shooting based list hasn't got a hope as they won't get in close enough to do damage fast enough and any reserve or other such sneaky lists won't arrive in time either. The only thing which threatens you would be other shooty lists, and other than Tau and another IG list they wouldn't be able to stand up to you.


I'd be happy if they would allow more time. 2.5 hours sounds good to me.

I disagree about the "massive advantage" comment. You're assuming that my army works off a gunline plan with my models all sitting on the edge of the table. I actually prefer to get the Blob into combat with as many enemy assault elements as possible and then "Pop" the commissar during the enemy assault phase. That should mean that my Blob is breaking and all of the enemy assault units are left in a kill zone with all of my Chimeras within 12". Then I just shoot "the crap" out of them with the Griffons, Plasma Executioner, and as many BS plasma guns as I can bring to bear.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Walrus wrote:You really should reduce your multiple themes of guard to 1 or 2. Putting blobs with mech and tossing in air calv and arty makes things a bit wonky to work with.

If you want that many troops just toss them in chimeras. Dawn of war just blob them and have the chimeras come in on their own chasing things down. Keeping a huge footprint on a blob squad while trying to maneuver other things is just a bitch.

Other than that dont see anything really out of place. Id rather have bassies than the griffons but thats personal preference. Long fang spam is the bane of mech guard and bassies are pretty good meq killers.


We don't use Dawn of War much. As for "bit wonky", I'm not sure I know what you mean. I haven't had a problem with multiple themes. It allows combined arms with specific units fulfilling necessary roles. My style of play would fail without the Blob and the artillery. I've tried eight Chimeras on the table and that gets a bit congested depending on terrain. The real weakness of an all Chimera troop army though is the point cost and the BS3 infantry squads with only one special weapon each. Mechvet squads are still useful when their Chimera is popped. Ordinary infantry squads are just fodder (or speed bumps) unless they are in the blob.

I'm going to stick with the list I have for at least a dozen more games. I need to try it against the Tyranids and some other SM lists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:
Powerguy wrote:Any tournament (I'm assuming its a tournament if its timed) that doesn't get the majority of games to turn 5 either needs to either allow more time (2.5 hours for 2000pts usually works) or play games at smaller points limits. Don't take this personally, but shooting lists like the one you are using have such a massive advantage if you only get 3-4 turns in that you are almost guaranteed of getting the win. Any kind of assault or close ranged shooting based list hasn't got a hope as they won't get in close enough to do damage fast enough and any reserve or other such sneaky lists won't arrive in time either. The only thing which threatens you would be other shooty lists, and other than Tau and another IG list they wouldn't be able to stand up to you.


It actually depends on the mission. If the mission is objective based, a quick moving army can grab objectives and just hope to not die.

The real point is that 4 turn games are pretty far from most of our experiences. I'd stick with lower model count armies, and focus on alpha striking.


The point about quick moving armies seems correct to me. A Mechdar army gave me real fits with its Wave Serpents. Their energy fields were too good for my meltas and my opponent was able to contest all of my objectives on the last turn of the game (Turn 4). If there had been a Turn 5, I would have destroyed him but he knew that we weren't going to get that far.

I actually don't have a lot of models for an IG army. I'm definitely not set up for an Alpha Strike but like any army, I prefer to go first in most situations. I've thought about heavier artillery (Manticore, Bassies) for the Alpha Strike but I don't like the trade-offs. I lose too many points that I need for my other units and the Alpha Strike seems to be a one trick pony that doesn't always work.

I'll revisit my army list after 12 more games but right now I don't think I'll change anything.

I will make some modifications to the stuff I pack for games to see if I can speed up game play and set up. I'd really like to get to Turn 5 or 6 in every game.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/01/24 14:16:44


The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
 
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