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In the 5th ed space marine codex under honour guard, It gives two confusing options:
-The chapter champion may replace his boltgun with a combat blade (free)

-The chapter champion may replace his power sword with a thunder hammer (30 points)

My questions are, where does it say the chapter champion has a power sword? And if he does in fact have a power sword and the
bolt pistol listed in the honour guard wargear, why would you replace his boltgun?

(Hoping I posted in the right place, thanks for replies!)

It says "unit composition: 1 chapter champion 2 honour guards"

and in that unit on the "wargear" they have "power weapon" and a bolt pistol AND a boltgun

I see no reason to replace his boltgun other then modeling reasons?

Ah, it seems I read over that. Thank you!

I believe the entire unit can take relic blades too?

They have 2+ armour saves right...theyd be a bit of a deathstar at 35ppm but theyd own!

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I see no reason to replace his boltgun other then modeling reasons?

And you are indeed correct - the Ultramarines Marneus Calgar with Honor Guard is a very awesome-looking set and that Champion there comes with the weapons mentioned...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1050236

GamzaTheChaos wrote:It says "unit composition: 1 chapter champion 2 honour guards"

and in that unit on the "wargear" they have "power weapon" and a bolt pistol AND a boltgun

I see no reason to replace his boltgun other then modeling reasons?

So in actuallity an unmodified chapter champion will have 4 power sword attacks and 5 on the charge? Because he has a power sword and a bolt pistol?
Or is this disallowed because he also has a boltgun?

A boltgun has absolutely no bearing on the number of attacks he has in close combat. He gains an extra attack from 2 CCW (1 special, one normal), the boltgun is irrelevant.

Jaon wrote:I believe the entire unit can take relic blades too?

They have 2+ armour saves right...theyd be a bit of a deathstar at 35ppm but theyd own!

yep and if you add a libarean then they can have a 5++ just like terminators

nosferatu1001 wrote:A boltgun has absolutely no bearing on the number of attacks he has in close combat. He gains an extra attack from 2 CCW (1 special, one normal), the boltgun is irrelevant.

In previous versions of the rules, a model could NOT benefit from 2 CCW if it was also armed with a rifle sized (or bigger) gun. Has this changed? IMHO the only reasons space marines are still armed with a bolt pistol AND boltgun are because:
a) they always were
b) they're usually modelled with a holster
c) to provide flexability with weapon options (i.e. you can take him as what I like to call a "Bolt Marine", or you can equip him for melee and he still has a pistol)

If you could indead benefit from 2 CCW AND hold a boltgun, why would anyone want to swap the boltgun for a Combat Blade?

karlosovic wrote:In previous versions of the rules, a model could NOT benefit from 2 CCW if it was also armed with a rifle sized (or bigger) gun. Has this changed? IMHO the only reasons space marines are still armed with a bolt pistol AND boltgun are because:
a) they always were
b) they're usually modelled with a holster
c) to provide flexability with weapon options (i.e. you can take him as what I like to call a "Bolt Marine", or you can equip him for melee and he still has a pistol)

If you could indead benefit from 2 CCW AND hold a boltgun, why would anyone want to swap the boltgun for a Combat Blade?

I understand from the doddering dinosaurs about here that was a 3rd edition restriction on the weapons you could carry. The number of weapons you are carrying is distinct from the number of weapons you can use.

Space marines are armed with a pistol and bolter so that you can fire the pistol and still assault.

But you are correct that:
Boltgun + CCW = 1 close combat weapon that you can use at the same time.
Bolt pistol + CCW = 2 close combat weapons that you can use at the same time.

Karlosovic: that has never been a rule.

Previous editions only ever had 2 weapons on any model; and only 1 of those weapons could be 2-handed.

This is also where "true grit" came in; which allowed SW, and Death guard to carry a Bolter and Chainsword, and gain the 2 weapon attack bonus when wielding Bolters(and only un-modified bolters). Grey Knights had the same rule for their Storm bolters(which are strapped to the forearm) but only for PA GK; when 4th edition came out "True Grit" became a USR and the Daemon hunter FAQ said to replace the true grit rule in the codex with the USR, the USR did not make a distinction between PAGK and TDAGK; the the termies got the bonus attack as well.

As to your other assertions:

A) Marines where not always armed with Bolter+BP; Last edition they just had bolters.
B) Save a Few special Older edition metal Vet Sgts the holster bit is fairly new.
C) The Combat Blade swap option is purely for WYSIWYG; the only model out currently has a Power sword and a Combat Blade(these used to be a broadsword and Poinard; granting Master crafter Power Weapons, +1 attack for paired weapons, and a 4+ Invul in CC)

Actually they had a Bolter and a Chainsword. So 5th ed codex changed them to have a pistol, so they could do some damage before charging in.

Kalosovic - both 4th and 5th ed could care less about which weapons you model is armed with, as long as you had two weapons which were single handed CCW. Seriously, it was never a rule - look back, as KK said, and you will notice that you just couldnt actually buy anything more than 1 two handed and 1 single handed weapon, so you didnt ever have bolter plus 2 CCW (except for some special models....)

5th ed has no inherent restriction, and the codex does, indeed, allow you to have a combat blade and power sword if you want. And its mainly a modelling thing, really. Remember - GW is a model company first, the rules are a distant second

Nos are you talking about 4th edition Vanilla marine dex having Bolter and Chainsword? If so that is incorrect; I verified with my copy before I posted, Tac marines just had bolters; and the Sgt could exchange tthiers for a Bolt Pistol and chainsword for free. Although that still doesn't matter to the current edition; you just know how I am about technicalities

Space wolves have always had Bolter and Chainsword and just got the Pistol as well in 5th(while losing "true grit" as it is unnecessary).

Bah, could have sworn they did!

Re SW - from memory didnt TG stop you getting the bonus attack for charging? As such gaining the BP was abig help for them!

let's see there were 3 versions, i don't have my old SW codex anymore, nor the 3rd edition Chaos...

I know 1 of them removed the Assault bonus, and 1 only gave the 2 weapon bonus provided the unit did not shoot before the assault.

4th edition USR was: no charge bonus.

So yes, and Maybe at the same time(GK was always no assault bonus).

3rd ed chaos was no bonus for charging, just checked

No idea where my old SW codex is....

Do you remember if you could fire rapid fire and then assault in 3rd? I think you might have been able to, but my 3rd ed rulebook disintegrated right about when 4th came out(about a few months before in truth).

Wow, we are getting wayyy OT

I think this thread can die now.

I thought that was second ed, but only with SM?

However half a dozen game systems and as many editions for each may be confusing me on that!

Ditto.

Having just dragged my 3rd ed rulebook off the shelf, as far as I can tell if you moved and shot rapid fire weapons (giving you one shot at 12") you could still assault, but if you remained stationary in order to get 2 shots you were unable to assault.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Previous editions only ever had 2 weapons on any model; and only 1 of those weapons could be 2-handed.

Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Ed) wrote:
Grey Hunter Pack
Weapons:
Troopers: Boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades
Sergeant: As troops, plus power sword
Wargear:
Any models may be given additional equipment chosen from the Assault Weapons section of the wargear list (chainswords, power axes etc)

= 3 weapons for sergeant.... and any other trooper you chose to give an extra weapon... hence the holsters for their pistols.

Kommissar Kel wrote:A) Marines where not always armed with Bolter+BP; Last edition they just had bolters.

OK sure, maybe not *always* but originally they certainly were arned with both

Kommissar Kel wrote:B) Save a Few special Older edition metal Vet Sgts the holster bit is fairly new.

I personally own plenty of Space Marine models with holsters

I can't comment on 4th Ed rules since I'd stopped playing for several years, but I certainly can comment on 2nd Ed (and to some extent - the rubbish 3rd Ed) as I used to work for GW in my younger years. If the ruling has changed in more recent rules editions, then sure, but my OP was clearly only giving an historical perspective, and i said as much. I'm only just starting to learn the current rule-set and there is a lot that seems to have changed. Usually not for the better (TAC marines only have 12" range if they move? Tanks can only fire 1 weapon if they move? Standing in cover is 95% pointless for Space Marines?)