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I have only recently been exposed to the fluff associated with the Sensei and the Starchild. This was kind of funny to me as I have been carrying the moniker that I use on this forum in my personal life for many many years for my own psycho-spiritual reasons. Thus, I thought that it would be fitting that I express that in the creation of a sensei warband. I have read a couple of dakka threads and threads from other sites regarding the notion of building a Sensei warband, most of which are fairly dated, and I did not wish to engage in threadomancy in order to explore this topic. It also seemed that the OPs were taking a different tack than I have had bouncing around in my head. The one thing that I share in common with those OPs is a desire to know more.

I have read the Lexicanum article, and the 40k wiki, which seem to be somewhat at odds when it comes to a few points that would be crucial in the game representation of a Sensei, in particular whether or not they have psychic powers. They both state that the Sensei are blanks when it comes to being detectable by warp entities. The Lexicanum article states that this warp-blankdom works in conjunction with tremendously powerful psychic powers just like dear old dad, that they lead "followers" that are elite, and generally implies that the Sensei would be pretty brutal on the battlefield. The wiki article states that the warp-blankness is kind of like that shown by the Tau, and prevents them from having any psychic powers. The wiki makes them out to basically be mis-lead sheep that can easily be captured by various imperial organizations either as heretics, or as ritual knife fodder in some arcane attempt to jumpstart the Corpse-King. Personally, I think that the idea of the Emperor's long-lost children that are immortal and have been kicking around for at least the last 10,000 years being pretty killy.

I have not been able to get my hands on the Realm of Chaos novels cited on the Lexicanum (Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned), so any information that has not already been presented on those sights would be greatly appreciated. As of now, all I have to go on are the Lexicanum and wiki articles. That being said, here are my initial thoughts.

Some people exploring the notion of building a Sensei army have forwarded the notion of making it a counts-as space wolf army, some as a counts-as witch hunters, and at least one suggested Grey Knights for all of the psy goodness. Some have come up with house rules for units of Sensei, and some have suggested mixing and matching between codexes. This doesn't really work for me because whatever army I build has to be playable, and that gets kind of sticky with mix-matching and house rule units. I also think of the sensi as relatively rare. I mean, the God emperor wasn't a total dog, was he? I am sure that he was popular with the ladies, and he was kicking around for a long time before landing in the golden geriatric ward, but his kids probably are kind of like the primarchs. Big, intensely powerful, relatively few in numbers, natural leaders, and effectively immortal. The articles say that they do not age, but that they can be killed. I infer that they are probably pretty hard to kill if they are still around 10K+ years into the grimdark future, in particular if there are whole imperial agencies gunning for them.

Neither SW, nor witch hunters can field an HQ that stacks to that image in my head. There are some truly powerful special characters, but I am still not seeing the raw power in a single HQ choice. Grey Knights are an option, but they are being effectivle done to death, and I still do not see them as an effective representation. This line of thinking has been rattling around in my brain pan for the last couple of days, and I think that I have some to an elegant solution that I have not seen suggested anywhere yet: Go Chaos. If you strip away all of the deliciously hedonistic names for all of the powers, you are left with a perfect template for an elite army led by an incredibly powerful HQ or HQs with psy powers galore. Chaos God marks, icons, and powers would primarily be explained by "blessings" from the Starchild by way of the Sensei. These powers would remain in the event of the sensei's death because they are bestowed to the individual soldiers by the Starchild.

It would kind of break down like this:
Sensei's would be counts as Demon Princes. Psychic flight ability, long range psy powers and a monster in CC. I think that I would model them kind of like Celestine or the C'tan (possibly make use of those models as bases as well) to make them as tall as the DP for purposes of LOS, and obviously mount them on the same size base. I really want to do the modeling for this army in such a way that I do not have any complaints about modeling for advantage, they are the sons of the Big E after all.

The "followers" would essentially be individual marines that had either left their chapter to follow the Sensei, or smaller chapters that had gone renegade en masse. I really see these Sensei as messianic characters bringing the lost and disenfranchised into their fold. How many stories are there of the Imperium declaring this or that hereticus, and even exterminating entire innocent populations due to the perceived corruption of the few? There are also quite a few marine chapters that were declared hereticus that never went over to chaos and are still kind of wandering aimlessly. The Sensei would be the ones trying to work some good in the cracks of the IoM. Many marines would have to have at least some kind of respect for someone toting around the Emperor's own gene-code, especially if they came by it the old-fashioned way.

The Obliterators could be explained by some kind of variable psy-gun system. I have a pretty decent explanation for everything else that I would want to field, but these are a bit sticky, and I would appreciate any suggestions.

Sorcerors could be fielded in games that do not call for two sensei, and would just be renegade Librarians.
Chaos Lords would just be battle-hardened and high-ramking marines. Demon weapons could be powerful artifacts from the good old days that the Sensei had given to them as a reward for loyalty.

Chosen would just be an elite unit with special armament, if I chose to field them at all.
Terminator suits are becoming more and more scarce in the grimdark future. Defectors to the Sensei's army would have brought their suits with them, especially in the case of entire small chapters choosing to follow the Sensei. The Sensei have also been around since the time when these suits were less rare.

I think that fluff-wise the same argument could be made for there being a lot of dreads, long time followers of the Sensei that have been blessed with the opportunity to serve after their bodies have failed. I think that chaos dreads are a little too likely to shoot their own for the fluff to work, and I also think that it would be kind of un-fluffy for the Sensei to intern one of their followers in a state of un-death much like that of the Emperor.
Plague Marines would just be marines blessed with a greater degree of durability.

Noise Marines would be marines blessed with heightened reflexes and given a cool gun.
Berzerkers are just that, only marine-like

Thousand Sons would tanks led by a Psyker, whose powers were brought on by close proximity to the Sensei.
Bikers are bikers, and raptors are jump infantry.
Havocs are former devastators.

Defilers may hold the place of dreads. I was kind of thinking that they could be psychically powered suits, more along the lines of a dreadknight than a dread. I might even have to break down and use a DK as a base, or do alot of conversion to a defiler.

I am going to stop here, as I would like to see if anyone has any input. I thank anyone that has read half of this hot mess, and any and all suggestions, recommendations, or further info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

There is no such thing as a Sensei Warband. If there was such a thing, this happen = Sensei Warband

Luna Dragon wrote:There is no such thing as a Sensei Warband. If there was such a thing, this happen = Sensei Warband

What kind of answer is that?


My opinion would be that you restrict yourself a bit by simply making a CSM warband with a sensei as a Daemon Prince. Since you're building your own army from scratch, why not enlarge your objective and use other models (maybe IG) to represent the sensei's lesser minions like the cultists? And keep CSM as an elite choice?

Unless you really want an army entirely made of superhuman amazingness?

Laodamia wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:There is no such thing as a Sensei Warband. If there was such a thing, this happen = Sensei Warband

What kind of answer is that?

It's the kind of answer that says SENSEI WARBANDS DON'T EXISTS!

Luna Dragon wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:There is no such thing as a Sensei Warband. If there was such a thing, this happen = Sensei Warband

What kind of answer is that?

It's the kind of answer that says SENSEI WARBANDS DON'T EXISTS!

Source?

It's W40K.

Anything can exist. If Twinkle Starchild wants a sensei warband, let him have one.

The Inquisition views the sensei as heretics and mutants and hunts them down. It is a fair guess that this never-ending threat could have pushed some towards Chaos.

Good on ya Laodamia! Anything is possible.

For myself, I agree with Starchild. A CSM list is perfect. Fluffwise I see the Sensei (or a single Sensei) inhabiting a planet hidden from IoM augers in the same way they themselves are invisible. This place never suffered the devolution of Old Night. (Largely thanks to said Sensei). This would be a chance to model sophisticated human technology ie mecha, battlesuits, cyborgs, robots... you name it!

Obliterators could be multi purpose gun platforms.
Any marine could be normal humans inside advanced mecha, fulfilling battlefield roles. (Thousand sons-fire support, Berserkers-combat etc.)

Summoned Daemons-(tricky) Local fauna with the ability to phase? Psycho projection technology?

All vehicles-same stats/different models

Dreads- Harnessed Deamons

Laodamia wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:There is no such thing as a Sensei Warband. If there was such a thing, this happen = Sensei Warband

What kind of answer is that?

It's the kind of answer that says SENSEI WARBANDS DON'T EXISTS!

Source?

It's W40K.

Anything can exist. If Twinkle Starchild wants a sensei warband, let him have one.

The Inquisition views the sensei as heretics and mutants and hunts them down. It is a fair guess that this never-ending threat could have pushed some towards Chaos.

Lexuicum says it is out of date .

Yes, we know that the sensei is old fluff, but IIRC, it has never been officially removed from the official fluff.

The only problem is that it was written a looonng time ago and that it sometimes contradicts more recent fluff. But for the moment, it is not out of date yet.

@luna: in response to your first post lexicanum states that "they and their followers operate as outlaw bands". The imperium considers these guys to be very dangerous, anyone dangerous usually builds some kind of following in the grimdark. Lexicanum does not state that the info is out of date, just that it has not been elaborated on in recent editions. It has not been contradicted or redacted, so I still consider it canon. You have also changed you assertion from "sensei leading warbands would be killed" to "sensei just don't lead warbands" to "sensei our outdated and don't exist". I am afraid that I am making the mistake of feeding the troll by responding to you. Be helpful or be gone, please.
@laodamia: including ig units is what leads most people to go the demon or witch hunters route. While I like this, there still isn't a unit entry that fits the bill for the sensei in that codex, and I really do not want to go outside of or alter the codex that I go with for the sake of playability. The idea would also not be that the sensei had gone to chaos. I just think that the csm codex fits the bill the best out of those available. The units would all be marines that had decided to follow the sensei. What inspired this were all of the parallels drawn between the sensei and chaos champions in the lexicanum article.
@rochronos: I like the idea of manned mecha for dreads and defilers and such, but I would kind of prefer to keep them rare. The idea of a hidden planet is a cool one, but I am afraid that it leaves kind of a large fluff print. I was thinking something more mobile and discreet. This is a smallish warband that iis on the run from the IoM, maybe a heresy era ship?

Laodamia wrote:Yes, we know that the sensei is old fluff, but IIRC, it has never been officially removed from the official fluff.

The only problem is that it was written a looonng time ago and that it sometimes contradicts more recent fluff. But for the moment, it is not out of date yet.

Twinkle Starchild wrote:@luna: in response to your first post lexicanum states that "they and their followers operate as outlaw bands". The imperium considers these guys to be very dangerous, anyone dangerous usually builds some kind of following in the grimdark. Lexicanum does not state that the info is out of date, just that it has not been elaborated on in recent editions. It has not been contradicted or redacted, so I still consider it canon. You have also changed you assertion from "sensei leading warbands would be killed" to "sensei just don't lead warbands" to "sensei our outdated and don't exist". I am afraid that I am making the mistake of feeding the troll by responding to you. Be helpful or be gone, please.
@laodamia: including ig units is what leads most people to go the demon or witch hunters route. While I like this, there still isn't a unit entry that fits the bill for the sensei in that codex, and I really do not want to go outside of or alter the codex that I go with for the sake of playability. The idea would also not be that the sensei had gone to chaos. I just think that the csm codex fits the bill the best out of those available. The units would all be marines that had decided to follow the sensei. What inspired this were all of the parallels drawn between the sensei and chaos champions in the lexicanum article.
@rochronos: I like the idea of manned mecha for dreads and defilers and such, but I would kind of prefer to keep them rare. The idea of a hidden planet is a cool one, but I am afraid that it leaves kind of a large fluff print. I was thinking something more mobile and discreet. This is a smallish warband that iis on the run from the IoM, maybe a heresy era ship?

It makes no sense and messes up the story line. It is out of date and is just plain dumb. (Who at GW throught this up anyway? )

Twinkle Starchild wrote:
@laodamia: including ig units is what leads most people to go the demon or witch hunters route. While I like this, there still isn't a unit entry that fits the bill for the sensei in that codex, and I really do not want to go outside of or alter the codex that I go with for the sake of playability. The idea would also not be that the sensei had gone to chaos. I just think that the csm codex fits the bill the best out of those available. The units would all be marines that had decided to follow the sensei. What inspired this were all of the parallels drawn between the sensei and chaos champions in the lexicanum article.

Ok, I think I get what you mean.

Do you plan on employing vehicles for your warband?

@luna: Sensei have been in the fluff since at least 1990 when Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned was published. Sensei have been around that long, and as such it could be argued that they have a greater degree of validity than the Tau or Necrons. They were also mentioned in the 3rd Edition rulebook. If you do not like the fluff, that is fine, but what would lead you to post in a thread that states pretty clearly from the start that it is about that exact bit of fluff? That's troll behaviour, and I will again, politely, ask you to take it elsewhere.

@Laodamia: Can you think of any more recent fluff points that the Sensei contradict? I am asking sincerely because I want to know what speedbumbs I might encounter in writing up the fluff for this.

@Rochronos: I was trying to figure out a work around to include lesser and greater demons in the army. The idea of local fauna works, but I was almost thinking that some sort of warp beast might also be a notion. The DE have them, and while theirs are markedly evil, there have to be beings in the warp that reflect positive emotions as well. I am not trying to go total fluffy-bunnies with this, and even a neutral being that could be brought under the control of the Sensei would work. Greater Demons would be a bit of an issue, but I guess that they could be explained in the same way, only with there needing to be a voluntary sacrifice to bring them into this plane. It could also be some kind of radical transformation of the sacrificees gene-seed or something like that. Like I said before, I am trying to minimize the degree to which I "bend" the fluff to make this work. Originally I was just going to bag on fielding demons at all because of this, but I am definitely open to any ideas that would make fielding them fluffy. The Grey Knights trap and use demons, right? Maybe I am over-complicating it, and that is the easiest solution. The Starchild icons would allow the Sensei to draw captured demons onto the battlefield and hold them in thrall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Laodamia: I would be using standard space marine models. They are all pretty much the same as the basic CSM vehicles. The fluff would be that they were also brought along with the marine defectors, or captured in raids on loyal astartes, or held over from older times. I would love to do some conversions to some of the vehicles to make them look more heresy era. I am kind of thinking that some of the more unusual (dreads and defilers again) vehicles and equipment would have been built using STCs that the Sensei re-discovered over the course of their long lifetime. There is a great thread here on dakka where someone was building the long lost Astartes super-heavies, and while I would would not be going with super-heavies, I might take a couple of pages out of his book on pre-heresy design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also like the idea of there being renegade techmarines or Mechanicus behind the scenes. I can not think of an appropriate unit entry to use as a proxy, but what Mechanicus wouldn't give their eye teeth to plumb the mind of someone who was kicking around when all the STCs were still being developed and utilized? They also have a history of thumbing their noses at the IoM, which would make them more likely to cooperate with a Sensei in exchange for knowledge.

Luna Dragon wrote:There is no such thing as a Sensei Warband. If there was such a thing, this happen = Sensei Warband

Modquisition on. This thread has been reported. Get off it Luna. The thread is about how he would make a list in line with the old sensei fluff. Whether you like the fluff isa not relevant and is becoming trolling at this point. Provide helpful commentary or move on.

This may be more appropriate in the army lists or proposed rules section, but I'll leave here unless someone has a better idea, as its background detailed with a older fluff.

Luna Dragon wrote:

It makes no sense and messes up the story line. It is out of date and is just plain dumb. (Who at GW throught this up anyway? )

The Illuminati, Sensei and the Star Child were all introduced in the two-tome Realm of Chaos books at the end of the 80s, the people who thought (not throught, spell check is your friend, even if we are not) them up were Rick Priestly and Bryan Ansell, the people who invented the game...

It also made a lot more sense than half the gak we see peddled as 'fluff' in recent codices.

OP, with regard your choice and how it compares with the Sensei in The Lost and The Damned, those warbands were made up of extraordinary heroes, almost like a roleplaying party. The retinue chart included squat, eldar, navigator etc...

I would look for an army that allows you to include horde infantry, powerful individuals and elite infantry. Old Daemon Hunters army would have been my first suggestion, have a look at their new codex for the inquisitor that allows you to take Imperial Guard as a troops choice (or inq henchmen I think their called?).

Entire marine chapters serving the Sensei seems a little weird, instead a varied mix of troops choices would work best imo. You could also use the Grey Knights assassin choice as a suitable inclusion of an eldar hero model.

@Frazzled: Thanks for the back up. I thought about putting it in the army list section, but because I am still hammering out the fluff aspect, I thought it more appropriate to handle that stage of development here. Once I have a solid basis for the background and general army structure, I will post an army list over there for review. I specifically wanted to stay away from creating any kind of house rules for this army, I really want to try to fit them within an official codex, so I did not think that it fit in Proposed Rules. Once I have the details worked out here, I will start a fresh thread for those.

@MeanGreen: This is very helpful. As I said, I have not had an opportunity to read the books yet, I think that I may be able to soon. I was not sure what made up their retinue in those books, and it is get a more clear picture. I will have to take another look through the DH codex and see if I can find an HQ in it that seems appropriate as a proxy for a Sensei. That really seems to be the sticking point for me. I have not really seen an HQ in any of the codices that I have read that seems to work as a psychically powerful son of the emperor, and the other unit choices in the CSM codex seemed appropriate if they were just re-named. I understand that the idea of a whole chapter going renegade to follow someone that they know is hunted by the IoM seems a little weird at first glance, but there are several examples of chapters going renegade or being declared hereticus when they had not gone over to chaos. There are also marine chapters that have just disappeared off of the map for no given reason, and chapters that have become so depleted that they hardly constitute a chapter any more. Disgruntled marines that are loyal to the emperor, but have caught nothing but grief from the IoM (sent in to clean up the Administratum's messes one too many times), come across a legitimate heir to the Emperor, and decide to follow him in a grand crusade to repair the damage done to the Big E's empire by corrupt bureaucrats.
I agree that it makes more sense for it to be a mixed bag, but the actual army that I am playing does not have to reflect all of the forces that have rallied behind this particular Sensei. I am also considering running a dual Sensei list as it seems that two DPs are a pretty effective HQ build for CSM. Possibly have the two Sensei's be full brothers, or even twins. Most battles would either be raids or defense actions, and having all marines on the table would just be an example of them bringing the best and brightest. Throw in the Defilers and Dreads proxied, and it would be kind of a mixed bag, as these could be war-machines run by non-marine humans or trapped demons.
I really like the idea of having multiple races involved in the warband, and this is another reason that I really want to read the books. I want to get a clear understanding of how that dynamic worked. It seems that the Eldar would be very interested in seeing someone step up and set the IoM on a less destructive course, and even to have a potential ally in the webway and physical realm to battle all of the more nefarious xenos forces at work in the universe.

Remember, the size of what you're actually putting on the board is maxing to a company, not a chapter. The Chaos idea is helpful here as well as its a warband. As such I would not consider that a limiting factor.

I like this idea and am going to help.

Old DH would have been a good choice but alas no more since GK came out.

The only other army I can suggest is one you've already looked over which would be CSM.

Although I will throw out the idea of Tyranids. Tyrants as Sensei, Gaunts/gants as cultists/hangers-ons, warriors as elite followers. Etc. Etc.

@ Frazzled: For sure, I am not trying to field even an entire company in a single battle (wish I had that kind of scratch ). That is kind of why I was thinking a pure-ish marine army. Some marine chapters, for various reasons, are depleted to the point of only having one or two full companies. If one of these was "brought into the fold", it would supply more than enough marines to effectively play a 1500-3000 point game and have men to spare. There would also be the non-marine followers, but they might be used in more support capacity. Again, these guys are trying to keep a low profile. While I understand that rolling out the gene enhanced megasoldiers is not exactly discreet, in some ways it has a smaller foot print than platoons of IG types and the requisite armoured support. This sort of list would represent an elite strike force of marines, possibly backed up by some interesting tech proxied for the defilers, dreads, and obliterators.

@Viking Scott: Old DH is unfortunately out as it is no longer current, and though the fluff is old, I want the rules to be as undisputable as possible for ease of gameplay. I do need to take a closer look at the GK codex to get a better idea of how the Sensei could proxy in a GK army. The GK's themselves may actually be a better representation of what marine followers of a Sensei would be like as far as powers, training, and equipment. Nids would be kind of cool, but I am not really going for horde as it does not really fit my playstyle (currently selling my 3000 pt ork army), I don't think that it fits the fluff as well, and making human models represent Nids dimension wise would be a bit of a challenge (again with the indisputable gameplay, TLOS is a pain). The input is greatly appreciated, and feel free to dispute any of this, I am really open to keep throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

I was also wondering if anyone has any suggestions or references for pre-heresy or crusade era imperial iconography. I am going to be using icons both for their unit buffs as well as to distinguish different kinds of counts-as units. I am going to post a thread in the p&m forum for suggestions on painting and modeling, but this is more background driven. I need to establish an over all iconic theme for the starchild. I think that eagle is still appropriate, but I would like to represent it in a more antiquated fashion. What do you think?

Twinkle Starchild wrote:I was also wondering if anyone has any suggestions or references for pre-heresy or crusade era imperial iconography. I am going to be using icons both for their unit buffs as well as to distinguish different kinds of counts-as units. I am going to post a thread in the p&m forum for suggestions on painting and modeling, but this is more background driven. I need to establish an over all iconic theme for the starchild. I think that eagle is still appropriate, but I would like to represent it in a more antiquated fashion. What do you think?

Well, heresy and pre-heresy iconography involved less aquilas. At the time, it was more like a badge of honor delivered to meritorious soldiers and marines than a symbol stamped on every piece of imperial tech. In addition, the aquila was introduced at the beginning of the crusade (right after the formation of the alliance with the AdMech), so it was still a relatively recent symbol during the Great Crusade.

If you want pre-heresy symbols, you could go for the old thunder decorations of Mk.I types of PA.

I figure that the defecting marines would probably keep the aquilas that they have, as they still consider themselves to be loyal servants of the emperor. I am going to down-play them in the modeling just to distinguish them from regular marines. The Emperor also used the eagle pre-heresy as a personal symbol (it's in most of the pictures of him from the time). I am definitely going to use the lightning bolt, as that seems to be the earliest symbol that he used. I was kind of considering forming a star out of lightning bolts and using that as a primary symbol. It would look an awful lot like a chaos star, but I think that it would be appropriate. I think that I will be using some Eldar bitz to represent the fancier weapons (Avenger shuriken catapult for the Sonic Blaster, and Shrieker Cannon for a Blastmaster). If there is a fluffy connection between the Sensei and the Eldar, maybe there is a way for the Eldar to adapt their tech for human use. I know that generally humans do not have the psychic aptitude to use Eldar tech, maybe a loaned out soulstone, or would that just be too much? Can't be any weirder than some of the GK tech explanations...

Twinkle Starchild wrote: I think that I will be using some Eldar bitz to represent the fancier weapons (Avenger shuriken catapult for the Sonic Blaster, and Shrieker Cannon for a Blastmaster). If there is a fluffy connection between the Sensei and the Eldar, maybe there is a way for the Eldar to adapt their tech for human use. I know that generally humans do not have the psychic aptitude to use Eldar tech, maybe a loaned out soulstone, or would that just be too much? Can't be any weirder than some of the GK tech explanations...

I'm afraid that the design of eldar weapons will not look good in the hands of SM.

SM are bulky and big. This design is also found in their weapons: bolters, plasma cannons, rocket launchers... all of these weapons are massive, relatively short and bulky.

The eldars, on the other hand, have a sleek appearance. They look agile and light. Their weapons look the same.

This is why I'm afraid some eldar weapons would not look good in SM hands. It depends on which weapons you pick of course.

The reason that I was thinking that those specific weapons would work is that their game profiles are similar to the noise marine weapons, and are actually somwhat similar in appearance. It may be too much of a stretch though. I am going to start a separate thread to see if anyone can think of fluff examples where humans used eldar weapons. I can always go the archaeotech route, I just thought the eldar connection would be cool to represent.