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Right, does anyone have any fluff or ideas as to how the Space Marine Chapters still have Librarians even after the Emperor has banned them by Official decree at the end of the Council of Nikaea.

Is this one of those fluff rabbit holes we just shouldn't Venture down?

IIRC in the original Council they only banned Sorcery whilst Psykers were treated as gifted individuals who merely needed to learn to control their power.
In the current one from the HH novels it would appear someone messed up...
Though i'm not sure how...

the Council banned space marines from using their psychic powers.

it also banned sorcery as a whole too.



It is not known how the Decree was altered after the Heresy, but it is clear that the Astartes had the ban on the Librarius lifted for them.'

Possably, the Emperor amended the decree to be optional as it proved to be too strict.


the Black Templer's and all chapters of that line still follow the Decree(being the more fanatic of the Son's of Dorn)

most of the Primarch's opposed the Decree. Gulliman definitly set a portion of his book aside for the use of psykers in the Astartes forces.

I think this decree was originally intended to prevent uncontrolled psyker development as occured in the Thousand Sons, but in the hysteria all psykers were rather 'ham-handedly' sanctioned as well. Over time this changed apparently. I think the heresy changed things.

When the Emperor was giving his final instructions to Rogal and the rest of his inner circle, he said about the starting of the Inquisition (did he also institute the Grey Knights at the same time? and also the Librarians? The reason i say this is that Grey Knights are Psykers?).

Roboute Guilliman wrote the Codex pretty soon after Horus's death, so maybe that explains why him and Rogal fell out. Roboute said "Psykers = ok" Rogal said "No Way" type thing. It would make an extra dimension to the post Heresy tensions between Roboute and Rogal.

Any further thoughts or old facts from back in the day, or items which might shed light on this would be appreciated.

The old established Canon ( Index Astartes articles et al ) was simple and logical: sorcery is banned but "normal" psychic powers are allowed.
"Sorcery" in this context is contacting, bargaining and making deals with entities of the Warp. "Normal" use is using your natural aptitude to
channel the flow of the Warp to gain ( for example ) extra strength or speed . Just like an athlete is using his trained body.

Then we got the infamous page on A Thousand Sons that changed the verdict of the Council to "all psykers are banned in the Legions".
This completely invalidated three decades of real life and ten millenia of in-game history for the 40K universe. So unless the Emperor ( or
someone acting in his name ) countermanded this order during the Heresy or its immediate aftermath, ALL Astartes Chapters that have
Librarians are defying the Emperor and are thus heretics of the worst order.

Make any sense? Of course not. My take is that the "total ban" was a colossal mistake that somehow got through editing. Either that
or some coming Heresy novel must include a plot point that countermands the verdict.

A-P wrote: The old established Canon ( Index Astartes articles et al ) was simple and logical: sorcery is banned but "normal" psychic powers are allowed.
"Sorcery" in this context is contacting, bargaining and making deals with entities of the Warp. "Normal" use is using your natural aptitude to
channel the flow of the Warp to gain ( for example ) extra strength or speed . Just like an athlete is using his trained body.

Then we got the infamous page on A Thousand Sons that changed the verdict of the Council to "all psykers are banned in the Legions".
This completely invalidated three decades of real life and ten millenia of in-game history for the 40K universe. So unless the Emperor ( or
someone acting in his name ) countermanded this order during the Heresy or its immediate aftermath, ALL Astartes Chapters that have
Librarians are defying the Emperor and are thus heretics of the worst order.

Make any sense? Of course not. My take is that the "total ban" was a colossal mistake that somehow got through editing. Either that
or some coming Heresy novel must include a plot point that countermands the verdict.

This ^.

Even if the Emperor "altered" his own verdict at Nikaea, of if one of his minions did it in his lieu, there's still a problem in that the previous fluff stated flat-out that his decree at Nikaea stood "unchanged" to the "present" time.

Worse still, the original fluff has the decision at Nikaea has the entire Librarium program established by The Emperor's decision. As it stands, not only are *Psykers* banned in the Astartes (so why do any Loyalists have any?) but the entire idea of a "Librarian" makes no sense since the fluff had the program established at Nikaea in the old fluff, but that's been replaced with the "new" version.

And, of course, the "new" version of the fluff really makes no sense since The Imperium relies on Pskyers (Navigators, Astropaths, heck as far as we can tell all the Primarchs were Psykers in some form or another, and then there's The Big E himself...). The old version of the fluff made sense by acknowledging that fact whilst simultaneously allowing The Emperor to rebute Magnus the Red's vision of Astartes-Sorcerers (and by extension, his vision of the future of The Imperium). The new version simply doesn't.

The Audiobook Garro makes a small change to the "new" fluff, hinting that Malcador altered things a bit. But it hardly (to my mind) salvages things...

But then there are folks here to will claim that it's all a carefully-planned decision by BL rather than a c0ck up. I guess we'll see...

Valete,

JohnS


edit: The first change in the fluff, IIRC, is in the "Visions of Heresy" book, not in the actual HH series of novels. So perhaps it was a mistake there that then was carried on through the novels for some reason.

And, this marks my 1k post which, based on the topic, is pretty apropos...