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Okay, so I do not own a GK codex, but this question came up in a game I played a few days ago. The vindicator assassin gets something huge like 4d6 armor penetration, and I was wondering if this would be stopped by the energy field, which reads as follows:
"...all ranged attacks never roll more than +1d6 for their armour penetration (for example, melta weapons...). Attacks in close combat, or from the rear, are unaffected by the energy field rule."
I could see this ruling being argued either way, so I wanted to see what you guys here thought.

I would treat it as Living Metal, so the vindicare would not get 4D6, just 3+D6

nosferatu1001 wrote:I would treat it as Living Metal, so the vindicare would not get 4D6, just 3+D6

Not if you play it like that one guy who says it totally replaces the the sniper strength, which would mean its no longer +4d6 its simply 4d6 and therefore bypassing the +1d6 extra limit on the roll since thier is no extra dice roll to the orignal armor penetration if we are going by RAW.
Btw I would actually play like this Iam simply stating my view of Raw in this case.

Grey elder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I would treat it as Living Metal, so the vindicare would not get 4D6, just 3+D6

Not if you play it like that one guy who says it totally replaces the the sniper strength, which would mean its no longer +4d6 its simply 4d6 and therefore bypassing the +1d6 extra limit on the roll since thier is no extra dice roll to the orignal armor penetration if we are going by RAW.
Btw I would actually play like this Iam simply stating my view of Raw in this case.

Except the book, RAW, says it has 4d6 Armor Penetration, implying that it rolls with the rifle's implied S3, not that it rolls a flat 4d6 against vehicles.

Possibly move this to a different thread, not the time or place!

Grey elder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:I would treat it as Living Metal, so the vindicare would not get 4D6, just 3+D6

Not if you play it like that one guy who says it totally replaces the the sniper strength, which would mean its no longer +4d6 its simply 4d6 and therefore bypassing the +1d6 extra limit on the roll since thier is no extra dice roll to the orignal armor penetration if we are going by RAW.
Btw I would actually play like this Iam simply stating my view of Raw in this case.

The Energy Field never mentions 'extra' dice. It only mentions +1d6, which is not an "extra" limit - it is referring to the 1d6 that almost all weapons roll for armor penetration as granted by the main rulebook. The Turbo Penetrator uses 4d6, which is 3d6 more than +1d6, no matter how you look at it. It uses Ordnance as an example, which has never had bonus to armor penetration - only "roll two dice and take the highest".

Turbo Penetrator says that it has 4d6 armor penetration. Energy Field says that ranged attacks never roll more than +1d6 for armor penetration. They use the same wording. Turbo Penetrator is the base rule for the weapon, and Energy Field overrides that base rule with a more specific rule.

Just to play devil's advocate, you could just as easily say that the energy field is the base rule, as it applies broadly to weapons shooting at the vehicle, and that the turbo penetrator is a more specific rule as it only covers one specific round from one specific weapon.

btw, before you flame me, don't really care one way or the other, as I don't play as necrons or eldar, and by the time my GK army is ready to be played, the FAQ should be done.

Shivan Reaper wrote:Just to play devil's advocate, you could just as easily say that the energy field is the base rule, as it applies broadly to weapons shooting at the vehicle, and that the turbo penetrator is a more specific rule as it only covers one specific round from one specific weapon.

btw, before you flame me, don't really care one way or the other, as I don't play as necrons or eldar, and by the time my GK army is ready to be played, the FAQ should be done.

There won't be a FAQ on the issue, since GW will consider it one of the stupid, simple, rules. Sometimes they are right in that way, sometimes they neglect to take circumstances into account.

The eldar rule is also more specific since it only covers the front and side arcs, and only if you elect to shoot at it, as well as you're left in a rules limbo if you do it the other way. Yes, the rifle has 4D6 penetration, but when shooting at a Wave Serpent's front you only get to roll a single die. Try going for the rear. Or for the Falcon. Or just use loads of Autocannon rounds like any sane Marine commander would.

I am out of touch with the rules text for Necrons, but the rules limbo threatens if they state you don't ever gain additional (specific or otherwise) dice...

Shivan Reaper wrote:Just to play devil's advocate, you could just as easily say that the energy field is the base rule, as it applies broadly to weapons shooting at the vehicle, and that the turbo penetrator is a more specific rule as it only covers one specific round from one specific weapon.

btw, before you flame me, don't really care one way or the other, as I don't play as necrons or eldar, and by the time my GK army is ready to be played, the FAQ should be done.

No, you really can't "easily" say that. The Turbo Penetrator 'has' 4d6 armor penetration, and Energy Field 'never' allows more than +1d6. 'Never' trumps all wording except for 'always' (or rules that specifically address the 'never' wording).

Also, Energy Field is a special rule that modifies incoming attacks. Turbo Penetrator is an attack.

+1 In favor of the Eldar rule trumping the Vindicare "Turbo Penetrator" round as the wording is pretty clear on both accounts.

After having read both rules several times, and seeing as this doesn't affect me (I play Necrons, Guard, Orks, and Wolves) I believe that my opinion is fairly unbias.

Not that it matters, because people will play however they want to in the end anyway.

Lets say the round is played in a way that it is only 4d6 penetration, in this case I believe it would bypass the +1d6 only rule RAW wise , btw I wouldnt play this way just like a good loophole to find.

bigbaboonass wrote:
After having read both rules several times, and seeing as this doesn't affect me (I play Necrons, Guard, Orks, and Wolves) I believe that my opinion is fairly unbias.

Not questioning your honesty or anything, but considering that the other prime example of a vehicle special rule vs. the Turbo-penetrator round is the Monolith...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

bigbaboonass wrote:
After having read both rules several times, and seeing as this doesn't affect me (I play Necrons, Guard, Orks, and Wolves) I believe that my opinion is fairly unbias.

Not questioning your honesty or anything, but considering that the other prime example of a vehicle special rule vs. the Turbo-penetrator round is the Monolith...

As far as the rules for usining it against the Monolith. The Monolith rules make reference to extra d6. So in this case the TP round would get its 4d6 simply for the fact that they aren't extra d6, it's just how many it gets.

However in the Eldar codex, extra d6 aren't mentioned. It just says never more than 1d6 armor penetraion unless the attacks come from shooting at the rear arc of the vehicle or close combat.

So this is how my gaming group has interperted the rules for the TP round. Feel free to use whatever ruling you'd like, this is just my opinion and how we play the game.

bigbaboonass wrote:
As far as the rules for usining it against the Monolith. The Monolith rules make reference to extra d6. So in this case the TP round would get its 4d6 simply for the fact that they aren't extra d6, it's just how many it gets.

Might want to read the couple of long monolith threads recently. The Living Metal rule (in the newest print of the Necron codex) has a line stating that you only get the unaugmented strength of the weapon plus a single d6 when attempting to penetrate the Monolith no matter what. And yes, the words 'no matter what' are part of the rule. So 'extra' dice or not is irreloevant, as you are always limited to a single d6..................... No Matter What.