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Could someone list the best to worst armies based on Magic, maybe even give a quick reason as to why. I would like to thank you ahead of time for any responses.

All I can give is the worst magic army. Dwarfs. Because they don't have any.

I would expect best to be High Elves or Skaven, no idea though lol

HE, Lizardmen, Tzeench, Skaven,... other stuff,... Dwarfs.

I'll do a Top Five for magic.

#1: Lizardmen - The Slann is the single most effective caster in the game. He has access to all eight Lores of Magic, he has a gift that provides him with Loremaster and another that gives him a free dice on every casting attempt. Also in the Space Frog's bag of tricks is the ability to shut down other casters (by negating any 6s that they roll when casting) or even pass miscasts off onto them. Hero-level Lizardmen casters can only use Lore of Heavens (though they can ride an Engine of the Gods, which all but makes them a Level Three caster), but the unmatched effectiveness of the Slann makes up for that deficiency. They really are the most powerful wizards in Warhammer.

#2: Dark Elves - Though Dark Elves don't have access to all of the Lores of Magic, they do have access to a couple of good ones (Death and Shadow), along with their own Dark Magic (which is still a very potent lore). Every Dark Elf has the ability to cast with as many magic dice as they want, which isn't that big of a deal in 8th Edition, but can still be nice when you absolutely, positively need a spell to go off. They can all also cast the Power of Darkness spell, which lets them generate additional Power Dice. While their arcane item selection isn't quite on par with the powers of the Slann, they do still have some good ones. The Darkstar Cloak gives a caster an additional casting dice, but the best options are the Tome of Furion (grants an additional spell, which is helpful when you've got lots of dice to play with), Sacrificial Dagger (which allows you to kill models in your own unit for more Power Dice) and the Focus Familiar (which allows you to cast from a point within 6" of your caster).

#3: Warriors of Chaos - Truth be told, I could probably rate Dark Elves as 2a, and Warriors of Chaos as 2b. Their magic performance is similar in a lot of ways, as Warriors of Chaos also have access to Lore of Shadow and Death (as well as Fire and Heavens, which aren't nearly as popular). They also have access to three unique lores: those of Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Nurgle. One of the hallmarks of the Warriors of Chaos army used to be their ability to manipulate miscasts to their advantage, thanks to their Infernal Puppet magic item. With the onset of 8th that strategy (thankfully) fell by the wayside, but they still have a good selection of Arcane Items to bolster their casters. The Chaos Lores are a mixed bag. Lore of Nurgle is possibly the most effective, though the Lore of Tzeentch has Infernal Gateway, a spell that has a (small) chance to simply remove an opposing unit from play without recourse ( ). Lore of Slaanesh isn't exceptional, but two out of three isn't bad.

#4: High Elves - The High Elves don't really dominate the magic phase, but they have a sound showing in it. They're another army that has access to all eight Lores of Magic from the main rulebook, and they have a pretty decent selection of arcane items to bolster the effectiveness of their casters. They also have the ever popular Banner of Sorcery, which is a unit banner that provides the army with additional Power Dice each turn.

#5: Vampire Counts - Though they aren't as popular now as they were in 7th Edition, Vampire Counts still have the ability to put excellent casters on the table. By default they're locked into the Lore of Vampires, but they do have a gift that can give their casters Loremaster (or any Lore except for Life). They also have a gift that allows their caster to generate two additional Power Dice per turn, which can help swing a bad Winds of Magic roll back into your favor. The problem with Vampire Counts is that they rely on Lore of Vampires quite a bit in order to make their army work, so they don't always have the luxury of being able to dabble with spells that aren't raising or augmenting their troops.

And the bottom three...

#13: Wood Elves - The Wood Elves are saddled with a somewhat lackluster Lore of Magic (Lore of Athel Loren), which is further complicated by the fact that it's the only Lore that their Hero level casters can use. The reason why Lore of Athel Loren is near the lower end of the spectrum is because its spells are almost entirely supportive. Though their Lord Level casters get access to the excellent Lore of Life (and the acceptable Lore of Beasts), they also don't have many items that let them bolster or manipulate the magic phase. All of this combined just makes them pretty tepid when it comes to the Magic Phase.

#14: Ogre Kingdoms - The Ogre Kingdoms have an atypical magic system, which is primarily focused on augmenting their troops. While it makes for an important part of their strategy, it's less like proper Warhammer Magic and more like a special ability built into the army itself. The fact that they can't take a Lord level caster without also taking a Lord level combat character doesn't help their case.

#15: Dwarfs - The Dwarfs have no magic or casters. At all. If you want a magical army, this is the one that you skip out of hand.

SkaerKrow wrote:I'll do a Top Five for magic.

#1: Lizardmen - The Slann is the single most effective caster in the game. He has access to all eight Lores of Magic, he has a gift that provides him with Loremaster and another that gives him a free dice on every casting attempt. Also in the Space Frog's bag of tricks is the ability to shut down other casters (by negating any 6s that they roll when casting) or even pass miscasts off onto them. Hero-level Lizardmen casters can only use Lore of Heavens (though they can ride an Engine of the Gods, which all but makes them a Level Three caster), but the unmatched effectiveness of the Slann makes up for that deficiency. They really are the most powerful wizards in Warhammer.

May I just clarify a few things? Because you're making Slann out to be the most OP caster ever.

The 'gifts' are called Disciplines, and you get 1 free one as standard, the rest are 50pts each up to a total of 4; that means before any items, if you want Loremaster, Becalming Cogitation and The Focussed Rumination, your Slann costs 375pts, more than most Level 4 Wizards WITH magic items; the Slann is the only Level 4 non-SC I know of that can hit or exceed 500pts without the aid of a monsterous mount.

The Discipline that negates 6s is called Becalming Cogitation, and may target only a single wizard at a time, and also has a range of 24". The passing of miscasts, however, is NOT a discipline; it is a One Use Only arcane item that works on a roll of 2+; its main purpose is to negate the miscast, the secondary ability is to pass it to a wizard within Line of Sight of the Slann.

All this, however, can be avoided by throwing 6 dice into Purple Sun or Pit of Shades and forcing the Slann to take an I test on his I of 1. The resulting miscast from your own wizard doesn't usually surpass the carnage wrought by killing off a 500pt caster that is the lynchpin of a Lizardmen army, and a good lot of his 300-400pt Temple Guard unit. The fact that a Lizardmen army all but revolves around their Slann should make them seem a lot less cheesy than some people make them out to be; take out the Slann, and you take out the heart of the Lizardmen army and their only reliable caster.

Avatar 720 wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:I'll do a Top Five for magic.

#1: Lizardmen - The Slann is the single most effective caster in the game. He has access to all eight Lores of Magic, he has a gift that provides him with Loremaster and another that gives him a free dice on every casting attempt. Also in the Space Frog's bag of tricks is the ability to shut down other casters (by negating any 6s that they roll when casting) or even pass miscasts off onto them. Hero-level Lizardmen casters can only use Lore of Heavens (though they can ride an Engine of the Gods, which all but makes them a Level Three caster), but the unmatched effectiveness of the Slann makes up for that deficiency. They really are the most powerful wizards in Warhammer.

Lots'o good text

Not to mention the fact that Teclis exists. I don't care what stuff you can get on a Slann, you're not going to make it a better caster than Teclis. Miscast protection, IF on doubles, D3 extra PD/DD, a dispel scroll that removes the enemy spell from the mind of the Wizard on a roll of 4+ (AKA Sigil of Asuryan) along with Loremaster choosing your lore before each game is leagues above even the Slann.

I also feel that High Elves deserve to be in the same position as WoC and DE. With High Magic and so many magic-affecting items, most notably the Book of Hoeth, Annulian Crystal and the Banner of Sorcery, High Elves can really throw a wrench in the opponent's magic phase, thereby giving themselves the opportunity to dominate Magic.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not to mention the fact that Teclis exists. I don't care what stuff you can get on a Slann, you're not going to make it a better caster than Teclis. Miscast protection, IF on doubles, D3 extra PD/DD, a dispel scroll that removes the enemy spell from the mind of the Wizard on a roll of 4+ (AKA Sigil of Asuryan) along with Loremaster choosing your lore before each game is leagues above even the Slann.

I also feel that High Elves deserve to be in the same position as WoC and DE. With High Magic and so many magic-affecting items, most notably the Book of Hoeth, Annulian Crystal and the Banner of Sorcery, High Elves can really throw a wrench in the opponent's magic phase, thereby giving themselves the opportunity to dominate Magic.

High Elves have 2 great magic casters that Teclis and the Teclis doppelganger (a Book of Hoeth caster). If you remove these options from the table (lets say you play in a non competitive environment, or an area that doesn't allow special characters) then HE magic is is below that of DE and Woc based on what a caster can do without help (like the banner of Sorcery). I'm not saying HE magic is terrible, far from it.


Overall I agree with ShaerKrow's analysis.

I would argue Daemons should be in top 5. 5 key reasons for doing so.

1) a level 4 as a core choice 40 horrors with skulltaker/changing is an effiective casting bock for dealing damage. It can also work as an effective anvil unit. Changling and Skulltaker's job is to protect reason #2.

2) Level 2 Loremasters. for 140 points you have a level 2 lore master of life? a boosted flesh to stone makes this unit a real tough nut to cracka 4+ ward save is decent protection vs miscasts at that point value.

3) 160 point flying loremaster of heavens. Everything is 24 inch range at a minimum. can stay in unit if against a gun line or fly around dropping comets. Especially near those horrors with skulltaker they have a 2+ ward vs magic.

4) Greater Daemons. They are fighters and casters, Nurgle and Slaneesh have some real winners. Phantasmagoria is brutal since everything causes fear and terror.

5) Fateweaver. He's the most tactically flexible caster in the game he's also a +6 to cast, 3+ ward save and his 1 d6 reroll each player turn is miscast protection. using fateweaver I tossed a dual slaan list with the ability to negate 6's by picking spells with extreme ranges (final transmutation, comet of cassandora, Boosted Soulblight from behind a building) and using supportative magic on troops with his units.

Lesser reason) Blue Scribes. Kinda hit or miss. But cool. and helps you gain PD for your turn.

My analysis doesn't take Special Characters into account, as I have never been in a Warhammer Fantasy group that has used them, nor have I been to any tournaments that use them, so I can't comment on them fairly. I do still stand by my ratings in any non-special character environment.

Avatar 720 wrote:

May I just clarify a few things? Because you're making Slann out to be the most OP caster ever.

OP? No. Most effective? Without question. Also, I play Lizardmen. I know how their abilities work, though I appreciate you typing out the clarification for those that might not have such familiarity.

All this, however, can be avoided by throwing 6 dice into Purple Sun or Pit of Shades and forcing the Slann to take an I test on his I of 1.

Except if I have Becalming Cogitation, I'll dispel your Purple Sun/Pit because you couldn't possibly have cast it with Irresistible Force (unless you have an ability that allows you to cast an Irresistible Force without needing 6s). Also, you're saying that the best way to wipe out a Slann is with one of two spells that not everyone has access to, not everyone can get reliably and that are both somewhat difficult to cast. That doesn't exactly pop the Slann balloon. I'm not saying that the Slann is OP or game breaking, but I am saying that it's the most effective caster in the game, and nothing that you have said invalidates that perspective.

Do not forget that the Slann, being infantry, will get a "look out sir!" roll against Sun&Shades. Also, Dwellers below is a good Slann-killer spell.

Except if I have Becalming Cogitation, I'll dispel your Purple Sun/Pit because you couldn't possibly have cast it with Irresistible Force

Pit, possibly (who's to say you even have enough dispel dice?), but I could simply sit at 25" and cast purple sun, and Becalming wouldn't affect me.

Yea and sun only goes more than 24" once out of six times.

So, if I cast the upgraded (Large Template) version of Purple Sun, there's a 1 in 3 chance that I'll actually roll high enough to toss the spell at your Slann while staying outside of the range of Cogitation. There's also a 1 in 6 chance that I just dropped a 5" Template of Death right on my own army. Again, that's not a compelling argument.

Slaan are up there, especially the life and light kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of magic a caster heavy gobbo army with a webshrine (so 2600+ pts) can be quite dominating. So many dice and scrolls...

SkaerKrow wrote:So, if I cast the upgraded (Large Template) version of Purple Sun, there's a 1 in 3 chance that I'll actually roll high enough to toss the spell at your Slann while staying outside of the range of Cogitation. There's also a 1 in 6 chance that I just dropped a 5" Template of Death right on my own army. Again, that's not a compelling argument.

Did I say upgraded? All I need to do is get it close to you, hitting you as soon as it goes off is a bonus; as long as it's in your deployment zone it's going to be causing you no end of hassle.

All i'm trying to prove is that Slann are not as good as they're oh so often made out to be, they cost a bomb in order to make them what they are, and cost even more to protect when HE can just shove their archmage into an archer bunker or small unt of Phoenix Guard and be done with it. When i'm spending upwards of 700-800pts on a caster and keeping it alive, I bloody well expect it to be good, but without the Temple Guard and without his upgrades, the Slann isn't amazing.

Avatar 720 wrote:
All i'm trying to prove is that Slann are not as good as they're oh so often made out to be, they cost a bomb in order to make them what they are, and cost even more to protect when HE can just shove their archmage into an archer bunker or small unt of Phoenix Guard and be done with it. When i'm spending upwards of 700-800pts on a caster and keeping it alive, I bloody well expect it to be good, but without the Temple Guard and without his upgrades, the Slann isn't amazing.

If we are talking about a bear bones caster with no upgrades/magic items of any kind then sure a Slan isn't worth much. While there are certainly ways to kill Slanns they are still the most efficient casters in the game.

I'm confused as to how a slann of any degree is better than a HE lv with Book of Hoeth, let alone the points difference.