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Hey folks, as promised, here's my full tournament report with my Dark Eldar. Lots of pictures, and it's a pretty long read- enter at your own peril!

http://rumorsofheresy.blogspot.com/2011/07/bolsgamescon-gt-tournament-report.html

Feel free to comment either here or on the blog!

Great job and great batrep!

I'm really confused on what "pain token shananigans" you are refering to. Seems like there were MANY instances where you had pain x2 pain tokens w/out even moving a model yet, much less shoot anything.

It's my understanding that your army had only x1 Haemonculous and therefore only x1 Pain Token. I remember reading something like this...

"Notice the haemy with the hellions near my board edge, ready to swap out with the baron..."
"On my turn I multi-charge like 4 chimeras and blow 3 or so up... (not a direct quote)"
"On my turn I multi-charge the seer council and harlies, at I7, then wiping the harlies and becoming fearless..."
"Grenades make my hellions LD2, terminators do a ton of wounds to me, but i'm fearless...(this is after you clearly didn't generate enough pain tokens from your Batrep for the fearless buff)

I think you might have seriously misplayed Power from Pain/Share the Pain and gained a HUGE advantage from it.

great bat reps, but I have a question how are you starting with 2 pain tokens in dawn of war since faq says ICs cant leave a unit the turn they come in?? just wondering cause I think that your use of hellions is awesome, I just think they dont work as well in DoW.

Q: If an Independent Character is joined to a unit that
is outflanking, when can he leave the unit? (p94)
A: If an independent character is arriving from reserve
together with a unit, whether it is outflanking or not,
he cannot leave the unit during the turn it arrives. He
can, of course, leave it as normal from the following
turn.

@ Painnen. You realise he gets additional Pain Tokens every time he kills a unit right? And that Wracks start with a Pain Token? The Baron starts with the Wracks, Haemonculi starts with the Hellions, they swapwith the Haemonculi leaving his token with the Hellions and the Baron taking the Wracks one. It's a great trick which plenty of people seem to have missed, certainly 3 Wrack's don't get much from their Token so its definitely worth it. The only possible issues are with DoW and the independent characters rule above, which could have been an issue in a couple of these games but in most he has time to swap things around just fine and its hard to tell exactly from the information we have.

Gaining additional Tokens happens at Initiative, so if he kills the Harlies before the Council strikes he would have got a third Pain Token. Against the Grey Knights he easily could have got 3 Tokens already, he has plenty of time to do the swapping trick despite it being DoW, so that's 2 and clearly they finished off that unit of Terminators the Libby was with when they charged to get the third. They also could have been the unit which finished off the first unit of Terminators with shooting as well (if he didn't manage to do the swapping trick)

Painnen wrote:I'm really confused on what "pain token shananigans" you are refering to. Seems like there were MANY instances where you had pain x2 pain tokens w/out even moving a model yet, much less shoot anything.

It's my understanding that your army had only x1 Haemonculous and therefore only x1 Pain Token. I remember reading something like this...

"Notice the haemy with the hellions near my board edge, ready to swap out with the baron..."
"On my turn I multi-charge like 4 chimeras and blow 3 or so up... (not a direct quote)"
"On my turn I multi-charge the seer council and harlies, at I7, then wiping the harlies and becoming fearless..."
"Grenades make my hellions LD2, terminators do a ton of wounds to me, but i'm fearless...(this is after you clearly didn't generate enough pain tokens from your Batrep for the fearless buff)

I think you might have seriously misplayed Power from Pain/Share the Pain and gained a HUGE advantage from it.

Delightfully worded. Perhaps you should actually ask questions before you accuse someone of cheating.

My Haemonculus has a pain token, and he starts with the Hellions.
The Wracks also have a pain token, and start with the Baron.

Still with me?

The Haemonculus leaves the unit, and gets inside 'his' transport, leaving the Hellions with a pain token. At this point, they have only 1 pain token.
The Wracks then leave the Baron to get into their transport, leaving the Baron with the token. At this point, the Baron has a Pain Token, and the Hellions have a Pain Token.

So... as of yet, I haven't 'fabricated' any pain tokens. lol

The Baron then joins the Hellions, making the total number of pain tokens in the unit TWO.

All completely legal. None of my opponents thought anything shady was going on- there were times I actually forgotto give units pain tokens. In the example of them being fearless vs. the GK Terminators, I had started with 2 tokens, and killed a single terminator unit (the one accompanying the librarian), giving me another one. 2+1= 3, and as the codex is very clear on the matter, the unit therefore had fearless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Powerguy: Thanks for coming to my defense, it worked exactly as you said

neiltj and Powerguy: Hm, the DoW/reserves thing is an interesting situation- the only FAQ that I've been able to find is this one:

Q: If an Independent Character is joined to a unit that
is outflanking, when can he leave the unit? (p94)

A: If an independent character is arriving from reserve
together with a unit, whether it is outflanking or not,
he cannot leave the unit during the turn it arrives. He
can, of course, leave it as normal from the following
turn.

In Dawn of War, your guys aren't coming in from reserves, would be my argument, though in honesty, I hadn't even thought about that FAQ when I was doing this- I thought it made enough sense, that the Baron could walk on attached to the wracks, but the Wracks would walk up and embark into their vehicle, while he would still only move his 6", but end his movement within 2" of the Hellions, and therefore join them.

None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with it- I explained what I was doing as clearly as possible each game that it happened in.

If I'm doing it wrong though, I'll certainly change up my 'habits', don't want to be doing it wrong! So, thanks for bringing it up. not my favorite thing to be questioned and not have as solid an answer as I had thought previously, but it's good to play correctly. :-/

Thanks for reading the Reps though, glad it's at least palatable to some people. :-p

Xaereth wrote:

Delightfully worded. Perhaps you should actually ask questions before you accuse someone of cheating.

I don't see anywhere where there is an accusation of cheating. I think you have "internet anxiety" and misunderstood that i was really just curious as to how you got the tokens as I couldn't tell how you got them.

Xaereth wrote:Still with me?

Yeah, I'm still with ya...did you actually read my post? I made specific mention of the haemonculous having a pain token and not the wracks (having forgot they started with one too). Perhaps it would be best if you took the time, as Powerguy did, to find out how to answer a question about your batreps instead of going down the "Holy'r than Thou" route.

Xaereth wrote:Thanks for reading the Reps though, glad it's at least palatable to some people. :-p

I did enjoy your batrep. That Baron switch never seemed to slow down your hellions, which both the swap of tokens and maintaining their effectiveness, was amazing to see. So amazing to see that I'm considering giving that unit a go whereas I never did before.

I do want to say this, since you took so much offence to my post, that in NONE of you posts do you make mention of the Baron starting with the Wracks. It is however discernable from the very first picture you took that "the swap" was happening once I had been enlightened of the fact. Great job with your games. It's a testiment to DE that you felt you made so many mistakes and still pulled out 30/30 victories. I however don't feel that all "non-optimized moves" are mistakes. Take all those Reaver squads that died to the Grey Knights...yes, it looks bad on a batrep that you sent x2 6-man units to their doom with little strategy involved but they DID however keep a shooty army in place, shooting a unit you didn't need to win the game, and it took him more than 1 turn to get them both.

Heh... you may be right that I have 'internet anxiety- your post seemed to me like you were well... accusing me of cheating, which I (obviously) don't take kindly to.

If you were being genuine though, I'll believe you- the internets makes it extremely easy to misunderstand/misinterpret intentions, and I'm ready to enough to admit that I misjudge what people say as much as the next guy.

So I'll just end with, I'm glad you liked them, and hope your inclusion of Hellions goes well for you, they're a really fun unit! I will say that logistically (from a transportation/moving around on the table standpoint), they're a lot to get used to. I ended up having to glue them to their bases, because it just took too long to move them when the models kept having to be replaced on their bases :-p

Amazing report. Blog Bookmarked.

Painnen wrote:I'm really confused on what "pain token shananigans" you are refering to. Seems like there were MANY instances where you had pain x2 pain tokens w/out even moving a model yet, much less shoot anything.

It's my understanding that your army had only x1 Haemonculous and therefore only x1 Pain Token. I remember reading something like this...

"Notice the haemy with the hellions near my board edge, ready to swap out with the baron..."
"On my turn I multi-charge like 4 chimeras and blow 3 or so up... (not a direct quote)"
"On my turn I multi-charge the seer council and harlies, at I7, then wiping the harlies and becoming fearless..."
"Grenades make my hellions LD2, terminators do a ton of wounds to me, but i'm fearless...(this is after you clearly didn't generate enough pain tokens from your Batrep for the fearless buff)

I think you might have seriously misplayed Power from Pain/Share the Pain and gained a HUGE advantage from it.

This whole passage, with the caps lock words "MANY" and "HUGE" as well as quoting sections of his battle report do seem like passive aggressive cheating accusations.

Painnen wrote:

Xaereth wrote:

Delightfully worded. Perhaps you should actually ask questions before you accuse someone of cheating.

I don't see anywhere where there is an accusation of cheating. I think you have "internet anxiety" and misunderstood that i was really just curious as to how you got the tokens as I couldn't tell how you got them.

Yeah, I understand why OP responded the way he did, I read it the same way that I presume he did in that first sentence (abbreviated - "you got all that from doing eff all?). Add in the last part about misusing the PFP rule...

Only saying this to point it out to you, not looking for a fight myself.

Not read the BR yet, but looking forward to it after what others have said

OP is cheater. It has been proven in this thread.




I'm kidding of course. Sweet Batrep and even sweeter army. Looks awesome all painted up. It looked to me that the Reavers were very good for you when facing against vehicles and... well... pretty much useless when you weren't. You think you would still play the Reavers? And how were the Wracks? They seem really out of place to be honest.

EDIT:

Scratch that about Wracks. I see what you did with them, now. Pretty sneaky.

Are you saying that you move baron + wracks up next to a vehicle, and the wracks embark and leave the baron behind?

I'm not so sure you can do that. I don't think you can leave behind an independent character via embarking, but I'm traveling at the moment and don't have the rulebook handy to check.

Actually someone was questioning me the other day whether you CAN have a unit walk away from an IC, since technically the IC decides to join/leave a unit depending on how HE moves during his turn, and that if the unit he's in moves while he's with it, he continues to be a part of it the whole time.

Something else I forgot to check and now can't, though. But yes, my friends and I have commented on the blatant abuse of power from pain before - his army features several wrack units, who all switch around first turn to give pain tokens to hellions, incubi, etc. and dramatically power up the army artificially. It was annoying to play against, but every army has their strength and in the end it's still not as bad as the Grey Knights.

Kurce: Thanks

I'll for sure use the Reavers again- they did some good vs. the GK Termie Army, though they didn't really *need* to do very well in that situation. They have far less of a role vs. footslogging armies, but I think I can get better at using them, as most of their fail in those games was due in large part to me misusing them :-p

Spellbound:

I don't see why you *can't* leave an IC via embarking. He would simply choose not to be part of the squad any more, and instead choose to be part of the squad he's joining.

I can see your point though. I think henceforth I'll be playing it differently, so this discussion doesn't need to come up. If I had done it wrong (which I don't think is necessarily true), then I did it without the intent of being wrong. Seemed to make sense though. /shrug

Thanks for the input from everyone, it makes writing the reports very worth it! I'll have even more reports up once the NOVA is open and I'm done with the Invitational/GT

I hate to disagree with spellboud, esp since I don't have my rulebook, but I believe you can leave him behind as he would no longer be within 2" and you cannot join a vehicle without embarking. I don't see how it would be any different than an Haemonculus jumping out of a Raider with a squad still inside.

I think it's a question of do models disembark, or do units disembark. I've seen people DISembark squads and leave IC behind, so assuming that's actually legal [again, I'm not sure if a unit can walk away from an IC, might just be ICs can choose to walk away from units, which makes a difference because units move one at a time, and if the unit is doing their movement before the IC's decided to leave, he would have to go with them], then a squad EMbarking and leaving an IC behind should be too. But if UNITS embark, not models, then until the IC separates, he's part of the unit.


....I'd imagine. Wish I had my rulebook. I need to pick me up one of the minirulebooks this next time around so I have a travel copy.

Man, what a discussion over nothing.... really

IC can always choose to leave a squad, even when declaring charges, he can choose not to charge with the unit , or leave unit and charge on his own.

This is a very basic rule.

So yes the Baron starts with wracks, picks there paintoken, he then leaves the unit and joins the hellions if they are in range. The Wracks now a unit withouth baron, can choose to embark, I don't see the issue really...

The only thing that I see that can be troublesome with the maneuver is Dawn of War. But its more of a grey area since in the rulebook it says "... move from their own table edge, just like units moving in from reserve" if you decided to move on the board first turn. Some rule that you cannot leave your unit the turn you come in from dawn of war so I usually do not attempt to do the pain token shuffle.

Other than that, its a good use of the baron. I found fighting MSU BA, SW, or GK is a tough matchup for my DE.

That was a fun and educational read. Must have taken you a while to put together!

Great job!

For what it's worth, I find GK builds with the twin linked psy-autocannon dreads hiding behind vehicle walls to be the toughest match up for my DE.

Valek wrote:Man, what a discussion over nothing.... really

IC can always choose to leave a squad, even when declaring charges, he can choose not to charge with the unit , or leave unit and charge on his own.

This is a very basic rule.

So yes the Baron starts with wracks, picks there paintoken, he then leaves the unit and joins the hellions if they are in range. The Wracks now a unit withouth baron, can choose to embark, I don't see the issue really...

The last thing you described works just fine. Walk the Baron away, then embark the unit.

The question was can the squad of guys, if they're all in embarking range, load up and leave the character behind.

BUT, the REST of what you said is absolutely 100% wrong. An IC can only join or leave a unit in the movement phase, and after that he's stuck. You can't charge an IC out of a unit by themselves, nor can a unit charge and leave an IC behind. I don't know where you got that, but your group is doing it wrong.