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Ok, heres a few lists I've been thinking and going to try in form or another...

1st List:

HQ
CiC & 2iC SMG/faust 75 pts

Combat Platoons
1. SS Panzergrenadier (3 squads, cmd SMG/faust) 250pts
2. SS Panzergrenadier (3 squads, cmd SMG/faust) 250pts

Weapons Platoons
SS Heavy Platoon (1 HMG section) 90pts
SS Mortar Platoon (1 section) 95pts
SS ATG Platoon (2* 7,5 PaK40) 135pts

Divisional Support
SS Panzer Platoon (3* Panther D) 600pts
Mot. SS Artillery Battery (4* 10,5 leFH18) 255pts

TOTAL 1750pts

2nd List:


HQ
CiC & 2iC SMG 55 pts

Combat Platoons
1. SS Panzergrenadier (3 squads, cmd SMG/faust, 1 MG/faust) 260pts
2. SS Panzergrenadier (3 squads, cmd SMG/faust, 1 MG/faust) 260pts

Weapons Platoons
SS Heavy Platoon (2 HMG section) 155pts
SS ATG Platoon (2* 7,5 PaK40) 135pts

Divisional Support
Heavy Tank Platoon (1* Tiger I E) 215pts
SS Panzer Platoon (4* StuG G) 435pts
Mot. SS Artillery Battery (4* 10,5 leFH18) 255pts

TOTAL 1750pts

3rd List:

HQ
CiC & 2iC MSG 55 pts

Combat Platoons
1. SS Panzergrenadier (3 squads, cmd SMG/faust, 1 MG/faust) 260pts
2. SS Panzergrenadier (3 squads, cmd SMG/faust) 250pts

Weapons Platoons
SS Mortar Platoon (2 section) 165pts
SS ATG Platoon (2* 7,5 PaK40) 135pts

Divisional Support
Heavy Tank Platoon (1* Tiger I E) 215pts
SS Panzer Platoon (4* StuG G) 435pts
Mot. SS Artillery Battery (4* 10,5 leFH18) 255pts

TOTAL 1750pts

The plan is simple, mobile elements (panzers) push into enemy positions (or against tank hordes provide mobile AT), while pzgrenadiers sit a bit further back and give some supportfire (later coming for objectives if attacking). Artillery tries to pin and/or destroy duck-in infantry (or blast against on coming infantry and tanks), mortars (when there is some) try to harras and pin and smoke enemy troops where possible. And lastly ATG platoon forms my point of AT (noticed this monday that 2 PaK40s can very much keep themselves against british and american tanks (mostly shermans in our games) all alone, and co-op with few HMGs to mop-up/pin infantry).

Tiger/Panthers provide some high AT against big tanks while PaK40s (and StuGs) can take out T-34s or shermans.

Most of my troops are fearless veterans, exept Tiger which is Heer unit so it's confident veteran, so I can expect to stay alive and on the battlefield, and to even hit something sometimes.

Any ideas how to improve my lists and/or tactics?

I like it alot sounds like it could work planes could be nice. IMO I haven't played in a while but seems like a great list.

I like your lists. If I had to choose a list I would go for list number one, because of the Panthers. but you have made three lists that can keep their own against Allies. I have to ask, how do you find the Tiger Vs panther? Personaly I have had mixed luck with both, but then again I do suffer from bad planning at times

@Trondheim: Well i haven't yet tried panthers (coming to my painting desk in december) so are a complete mystery so far, but i bet are going to be battlefield-domination in our games cause i haven't seen so many armour or at guns that can take them out in frontal assault.

And tiger... well a lonely tiger is a killer but draws all at hooting at itself so gets to blown to peaces quite fast... 2 would be op in here.

Ah I see, yes Tigers are a rather destructive weapon if used correctly. And I dont think 2 Tigers would be op, just quite hard to justify in terms of points

Trondheim wrote:Ah I see, yes Tigers are a rather destructive weapon if used correctly. And I dont think 2 Tigers would be op, just quite hard to justify in terms of points

Well I'd get 2 because 1 Tiger tends to draw all AT fire so if I get 2 of them I wouldn't end up losing my high AT unit straight away but I get your point on this... expensive peaces those Tigers. But yes Tigers are pain in my enemies asses

Nice, love the Wehrmacht and especially Grenadier formations. What Mortar's are you running? 12cm or 8cm, as I have found the 12cm are pretty incredible, able to effective against Tanks as well as Infantry. 300 points on 3 Panthers, thats quite cheap for Panthers. My Lehr Panthers are prohibitively expensive.

@mwnciboo: Thank you

I'm using 8cm mortars because Nederlanders can't get any bigger :( And sadly I can't even get bigger guns (15cm sFH18)

I'm not sure if you looked right but my panthers (3 of them) cost 600pts and 3 Panzer Lehr panthers costs "only" 560

Whoops, i miss read that somehow... Wow 600 points that is very, very expensive. I have no idea how I miss read 600 as 300 point...

Well it's Sunday morning so from my side I can totally understand if the night was long and so on

No, i'm just going slowly mad. I would have thought as a Fin you would have run one of those cool Finish Forces in Flames of War.

The Finns and gave the Soviets a good lesson in Arctic Warfare during WWII.

Well my friend is doing that... building Finnish forces, I'm here to back him up, to provide him panthers, tigers panzerfausts etv

I would like to read any battle reports you put out. We dont get enough of those if you ask me. And Finnish forces are a nice build

Well I'll have to write down some notes next time I play with my friend Hopefully soon, although he's waiting for 1 KV to get his heavy tank platoon.

Wooo I will be waiting eagrly for it

Your lone Tiger may draw a lot of fire but that frees your other units up. The only change I might make is to drop the morters and try to fit in some anti-aircraft. 10/5-2cm's are pretty cheap. I have used Tigers and Panthers both and like the tigers better. Top armor 2 makes a huge differance believe it or not. Plus 40 inch range and a Tiger Ace skill. With 40 inch range I sit back and shoot and make them come to me. If they have to move to get in range it reduces thier rate of fire to 1 shot. Less chance to score a hit on the Tiger. Great looking lists though.

I take it you're talking about 1st and 3rd list here! Well i was thinking I would use mortars to pin enemy before I assault them... reroll range-in. And also thinking about transfering mortars from their own platoon into heavy platoon with HMGs cause I'd save about 20 points, which I can then use for something else. In list 3 this works cause i can take more fausts into pzgrenadier platoons or perhaps add hq AT section if i can free up enough points. List 1 would need something more serious thinking though.

Hmmm, I like running tigers but even with a Tiger Ace skill you don't hit at long distamce very often. I take a Pair of them and they do absorb alot of fire and distract the enemy, but they never really kill much (due to fighting a skilled enemy over 16 inches away concealed and usually Veteran). I call it my Noisy Kitty because thats all it ever does.

I have noticed the same thing with my lonely tiger, yes it soaks up a lot af AT fire but still it isn't killing that much at least as a lone tank. So next rtying those 3 panthers... well see whats going to happend

The problem I have felt with Panthers is, while they are a very very nice tank their side armor is always a liability. Which, is true for most tanks. I always feel that Brits & Americans do not panic as much against Panthers as they do against tigers. At least that is what seems to happen in my games.

The amount of attention the Tiger gets is what puts it over the top when deciding between Tigers & Panthers. Its a difference between "What am I going to do about this Tiger" as opposed to the "Ill get to you when Im ready Panthers"

If that makes sense at all.

Last night I was thinking about building something fast, and hopefully fun. A Panzerkompanie, from Bagration Panzer Forces. It's not some specific division, yet.

I'm going to use tanks at my disposal so I'm apologising in advance that this might not be "the best" panzerkompanie possible.

HQ
Pz IV H *2 190pts
Bergepanther +15pts

Combat Platoons
Pz IV H *4 380pts
Panther A *3 560pts

Weapons Platoons
Tiger I E *1 215pts
Panzer Pionier Platoon (3 squads) 145pts
Sd Kfz 251/7 +10pts

Divisional Support
Mot. Artillery Battery (4* 10,5 leFH18) 220pts

Total of 1735pts

Pioniers going to hold on to something, and use the half-truck to get them into objective later, and defend artillery while all the tanks storm from one side, thats 10 tanks rumbling up into enemys side and at some point into their rear. And arty to pin and smoke big treaths like heavy ATG and tanks.

What do you guys think of this as a "fun-list"?

You might try dropping the Panther's for another PzIV Platoon + a Recce/Infantry element.

Aside from that, it does look like a fun List. I see that you only go to 1735?

If you dropped the Bergepanther, would that extra 30pt give you the ability to add anything else?

definatley dont need PZ IV's in that list. Recon as suggested especially Luchs's and as I said before some cheap anti air comes in handy. If there is no enemy air they are good for killing infantry and soft targets. Panthers AT and front armor are great but as was said side armor 5 is bad. So is yop armor 1 then even regular infantry can hurt them in assault. Tigers top armor 2 requires engineers or sappers and such to hurt it in assault. Snd likr was said just the presance of the Tiger makes people nervous.

Consider using an Armoured Rocket Launcher battery of 3 with extra crew (each panzerwerfer counts as 2 guns instead of 1) for optimal smoke.

You've got enough good guns that it's more reliable to use those for killing, and 3 panzerwerfers with crew will drop a 3 template wide smoke cloud and do so a bit more reliably.

However, you do lose an observer, some AT rating, and the staff team (can't All Guns Repeat). But it's slightly less points if you find you need some extra.

Yup, but with these beauties,



You get a Stormtrooper move, and with the extra Crew you double the numbers of units in the bombardment. Double win with the Armoured-Werfers, I always take them.

Hmmm I'll have to consider armoured rocket launchers (aka SS Vielfachwerfer battery for Nederlanders...) 1 section of 3 with extra crew is 130pts and 2 sections of 6 with extra crew is 245pts (the later has almost the same cost as 4 10,5 leFH18, DAMN how have I missed this option!!!) could also add 4th launcher for both sections for 25+5pts/launcher+crew... total of 8 launcher (times 2 = 16 !!! )

I'll need to think this all over again...

Just remember that the German 105s are still good as other 105s despite all the extra rules you get with rockets. It's still AT4 against top armor and you get 2 observers for better coverage.

But, it's hard to deny the advantages that rockets get overall. always hitting on skill no matter which ranged in attempt succeeded.

About the only reason not to take the 10.5 is that it doesn't have any special rules at all. The Brits get their 8 gun batteries, the Americans can have any platoon leader spot, the soviets get the god of war, and I guess the Germans get lots of rockets.

Don't forget rockets also pin just like any other arty. If you want arty that actualy kills stuff invest in Hummels. If not rockets aren't a bad choice. Can't you attach an AT gun to them as well?

yeah but I wouldn't bother, the points cost is pretty prohibitive and you can only get one gun. It kind of makes the whole Stormtrooper move a bit silly. Fast moving Panzerwerfers, then a Prime Mover and AT gun slowing the whole unit down.

You can always leave that AT gun behind, so long as the platoon leader is taking at least half the unit with him.

Besides, a moving panzerwerfer unit is one that's not firing on the enemy. So having an AT gun there makes an opponent who is sending vehicles to attack the rocket battery hesitant.

There are situations where I would take the AT gun, for either the nebels or the panzerwerfers, but usually if I was running infantry instead of tanks. This way if tanks or some other vehicle tries to move to take out my rockets, I can respond without losing a turn of shooting.