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I was thinking about this the other day after reading a painting and modeling post. The guy was asking about the size difference between DKOK FW models and the Steel Legion models and if they would look strange playing together. It made me wonder why there wouldn't be even more variation in size and shape of humans from different imperial worlds. Being far into the future mixed with what we know about evolution and how environments effect the biology of animals it would be inevitable that humans on one planet may not look like humans at all compared to those on say, Terra. With the amount of worlds humans have settled on vast distances apart it would isolate the gene pools and create unlimited races of the same human species. I think in reality humans on different worlds, especially the more harsh and alien worlds, may adapt to their environments and be rejected by the imperium. Now would a strangely adapted race of genetic humans be considered xenos if they changed enough? Even if they were still humans and part of the imperium? If there is fluff that answers or hints at an answer to this question please point it out, but I've read a ton of books and I've never read about this.

I'm pretty sure the existence of abhumans like Ogryns and Ratlings answers your question?

In 40,000 years of evolution since the present, all humans can be grouped in to:

white
abhumans (ogryns, ratlings, squats (depending on who you ask))
probably less than 5% black
a few mongolians (attilans, white scars, maybe some others)
one Japanese (chinese?) guy (Hero, from the Last chancers)
maybe a few others

...or is that not what you meant?

(a more serious answer, the diversity of planets and length in time allows just about whatever you want

I don't think those two examples of variation are enough to be realistic. Were talking countless amounts of humans across the entire universe. There would be so many different kinds of abhumans. Also the imperium considers them abhumans and they treat Ogryns pretty badly. I guess the reason I thought about this is because humans with minor differences can't get along on one planet today, it seems impossible to think that the Imperium could successfully expand across the universe without infighting over racial or physical differences stopping progression because there would be alot. I understand its fiction but its interesting to think about it happening in our own history over the next few thousand years. Also at what point would the imperium classify a race as abhuman, what's the guideline? Extra finger? Gills? Extra organ of some type? (that occurs naturally, not implanted or grown as like in SM)


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@spiralingcadaver- that's where I was going with it, but I just think that its not enough variation. I just look at the variations here on one planet and I can't imagine what humans would turn into over thousands of years on many planets over vast distances. It's crazy to think about! (As you can tell evolution really interests me)

People are probably even more diverse than they are now, due to planets with varying gravity and mutations. As for race, it's a game designed by a bunch of white Englishmen so it contains a lot of white Englishmen.

Lol that's true, I understand how the game developed but I'm thinking about how it would actually be if it were real. but I would like to know how everyone thinks the Imperium would react to strange mutations. Would humans on a planet that evolved scale like skin but were still genetic humans and loyal to the Imperium be ostricized for being TOO alien? I feel like there would be a lot of rejection of people across the universe. Or maybe because it happens so slowly in most cases that they would just be accepted because of the relationships developed? Ogryns and ratlings, though strange looking, still have very human like features which I think makes them more easily accepted in the ranks. I think scale like skin, or something that would contribute to making group of humans appear not human even if they still are, might be too extreme to accept because of how the Imperium feels about anything "alien".

I don't know how canon it is any more, but people with minor mutations (i.e. notable malformations but don't look like they're from codex: chaos) were often allowed to survive as a lower class or slave class, depending on the world (for instance, Scavvies (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat490066a&prodId=prod1120121) in Necromunda.

Depending on which fluff you want to follow, beastmen (like, the chaos fantasy guys, minus the "chaos" part) were considered abhumans and as late as late 3rd edition/early 4th edition (I forget), they were legal in an Imperial Guard army (there were a few variant rules published in WD, including a "beastmen" upgrade for conscript platoons), as a sense of what is acceptable.

Don't Salamanders have jet black skin and blazing red eyes? How does the Imperium react to them?

Shredder wrote:Don't Salamanders have jet black skin and blazing red eyes? How does the Imperium react to them?

They're genetically still human, so it's A-okay. It's just magic radiation is all!

Thare1774 wrote:I don't think those two examples of variation are enough to be realistic. Were talking countless amounts of humans across the entire universe. There would be so many different kinds of abhumans. Also the imperium considers them abhumans and they treat Ogryns pretty badly. I guess the reason I thought about this is because humans with minor differences can't get along on one planet today, it seems impossible to think that the Imperium could successfully expand across the universe without infighting over racial or physical differences stopping progression because there would be alot. I understand its fiction but its interesting to think about it happening in our own history over the next few thousand years. Also at what point would the imperium classify a race as abhuman, what's the guideline? Extra finger? Gills? Extra organ of some type? (that occurs naturally, not implanted or grown as like in SM)


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@spiralingcadaver- that's where I was going with it, but I just think that its not enough variation. I just look at the variations here on one planet and I can't imagine what humans would turn into over thousands of years on many planets over vast distances. It's crazy to think about! (As you can tell evolution really interests me)

That interests me, too. My theory is, it would go something like this:

Over the course of human evolution on earth, people continue as they are: we probably loose our pinkies and skin color starts to homogenize to a moderate brown. This is sort of like a bottleneck effect, but due to converging evolution rather than sudden dying off (or maybe also with something akin to that, considering the likelihood of multiple World Wars over the course of several thousand years, so, one way or another, when humans attain regular space travel, there's a pretty common starting point.

The expansion period (forget what it's called) in 40k leads to several thousand years of isolated evolution. On any given planet, people will subtly evolve differently, though, with the availability of technology on some planets, advantageous physical traits wouldn't actually come to dominate, as (for instance) being able to run faster wouldn't make a ton of difference if you still have cars/space ships/whatever.

The Imperium is formed, reestablishing regular outside contact, however, that reintroduction of diversity into a given gene pool probably won't make a huge impact on dominant traits on a planet, unless it has very tight ties with a couple others.

Shredder wrote:Don't Salamanders have jet black skin and blazing red eyes? How does the Imperium react to them?

SM were created to be super human so all their differences are accepted because of that. The Salamanders mutations are due to their environment, but they are a creation of the Imperium so its not a problem. Im not including SM in this, im talking nature made humans.


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spiralingcadaver wrote:I don't know how canon it is any more, but people with minor mutations (i.e. notable malformations but don't look like they're from codex: chaos) were often allowed to survive as a lower class or slave class, depending on the world (for instance, Scavvies (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat490066a&prodId=prod1120121) in Necromunda.

Depending on which fluff you want to follow, beastmen (like, the chaos fantasy guys, minus the "chaos" part) were considered abhumans and as late as late 3rd edition/early 4th edition (I forget), they were legal in an Imperial Guard army (there were a few variant rules published in WD, including a "beastmen" upgrade for conscript platoons), as a sense of what is acceptable.

That big guy with the scales is pretty much exactly what I was thinking about! A non human feature like scales on a human. So they made them slaves you say? Thanks for the reference on that, answers some questions for sure. So pretty much the Imperium recognizes that they arent neccesarilly "alien" and will let them live and give them a purpose, but its a forced service?

Yeah, unless your fluff has them coming from a highly regimented world, it would totally be within character to use that sort of thing to represent conscripts/penal legion (slaves/penal colony) platoons (irregular regiment); veterans (the original steel legion? or something in the armageddon book) rules let you use hive gangs, which were pretty similar in feel to veterans) or ogryn (though with a bit more suspicion than their more accepted proxies)

40,000 years is far, far too short a time for evolution to take place in humans. It'd be the same as it is now, i.e. people in fertile, productive areas being tall and strong, people in poorer/less fertile areas being smaller and lighter build.
Maybe an inch or so of height due to centuries of (relatively) high food supply, but nothing resembling another species at all.

Joey wrote:40,000 years is far, far too short a time for evolution to take place in humans. It'd be the same as it is now, i.e. people in fertile, productive areas being tall and strong, people in poorer/less fertile areas being smaller and lighter build.
Maybe an inch or so of height due to centuries of (relatively) high food supply, but nothing resembling another species at all.

Well there are some worlds where there are other influences that may speed evolution along. Salamanders, even though they're SM, skin changed pretty quickly in evolutionary terms due to a crazy and unnatural environment. Since we've never lived on other planets its hard to say for certain, but I'm sure its possible for a pop to change drastically over 40000 years after settling on a new planet greatly different than their native planets.

Joey wrote:40,000 years is far, far too short a time for evolution to take place in humans. It'd be the same as it is now, i.e. people in fertile, productive areas being tall and strong, people in poorer/less fertile areas being smaller and lighter build.
Maybe an inch or so of height due to centuries of (relatively) high food supply, but nothing resembling another species at all.

Take in to account a proliferation of mutation, genetic manipulation, and science fiction jargon, and you've got grounds for significant differences.

Also, re: "an inch or so of height," the average height in japan (for new generations) increased by something around an inch per decade for a few decades after WWII due primarily to changes in nutrition, so I think you're being a bit conservative, in terms of possibilities.

spiralingcadaver wrote:
Take in to account a proliferation of mutation, genetic manipulation, and science fiction jargon, and you've got grounds for significant differences.

Also, re: "an inch or so of height," the average height in japan (for new generations) increased by something around an inch per decade for a few decades after WWII due primarily to changes in nutrition, so I think you're being a bit conservative, in terms of possibilities.

"mutation" does not increase the rate of evolution, it just gives people leukemia and kills them.
And human height has been genetically constant, it's just a matter of how much food there is around. Japan has a steadily increasing protein consuption, hence an increased height.
Places like the USA and Europe where protein was more readily available in the past, have had a much more modest increase.
There won't be 8 foot (non space marine) humans walking around any time soon, there are dozens of genes involved in human biology they don't just decide to make humans bigger all of a sudden.

Thare1774 wrote:
Well there are some worlds where there are other influences that may speed evolution along. Salamanders, even though they're SM, skin changed pretty quickly in evolutionary terms due to a crazy and unnatural environment. Since we've never lived on other planets its hard to say for certain, but I'm sure its possible for a pop to change drastically over 40000 years after settling on a new planet greatly different than their native planets.

A skin change can be environmental but it can't be genetic. Evolution is a VERY slow process, far beyond the 40,000 years we're talking about here.

Also, take into consideration that when the Imperium expanded back out into space, any race of humans that were they encountered would be scrutinized closely by the Inquisition and other forces. Anyone found to be too different from what they consider the human norm would be treated as if they were infected by Chaos and most likely exterminated to the last 7 fingered, blue skinned baby on the planet. Then, if they were really ugly, the planet itself would be subject to every horrid weapon the Imperial forces could hurl their way, until the world itself was just a scarred, barren lump with some satelites floating around blaring "Really bad eggs, stay away or you're next" messages.

@Joey- the problem is we only know about evolution on our own world, in the 40k universe there are human settlements on planets around the universe. Unfathomably larger territory than the earth and countless amounts of human beings which could lend itself to faster evolution. Were working with a limited amount of people in a semi constant environment. All I'm saying is we've never done the things the Imperium has like settling many worlds with countless people so we can't say for certain that evolution could not happen in 40000 years. Could be some weird unearthly naturally occurring chemical only found on a distant planet, or an element non existent on earth that can cause evolution to occur without causing a cancer to form or anything else that kills u. You have to take into account the unknown.

Thare1774 wrote:@Joey- the problem is we only know about evolution on our own world, in the 40k universe there are human settlements on planets around the universe. Unfathomably larger territory than the earth and countless amounts of human beings which could lend itself to faster evolution. Were working with a limited amount of people in a semi constant environment. All I'm saying is we've never done the things the Imperium has like settling many worlds with countless people so we can't say for certain that evolution could not happen in 40000 years. Could be some weird unearthly naturally occurring chemical only found on a distant planet, or an element non existent on earth that can cause evolution to occur without causing a cancer to form or anything else that kills u. You have to take into account the unknown.

This, a thousand times this.

There are a few select things that make the 40k setting strong. One is its history. Another is the sheer scope of possibility (40,000 years (not counting earlier stuff), millions of planets, millions to billions per planet, magic/chaos, deities, contradictions, and apocrypha. GW has done nothing, if not create a vast universe where almost anything you want can happen legitimately, and the rest can happen if you want it to, anyways.

40,000 is a lot like "10,000" in Asian cultures or "a million" in Western ones: it's a really big number, that doesn't particularly matter specifically.