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Page 22 of the BRB states that "Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target."

My question this: Will models who fire from more than 2" inside area terrin always confer a cover save to their target? And if they do confer a save at all, what will its value be?

Avatar 720 wrote:Page 22 of the BRB states that "Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target."

My question this: Will models who fire from more than 2" inside area terrin always confer a cover save to their target? And if they do confer a save at all, what will its value be?

Any models firing from more than 2" inside area terrain will confer a cover save to their target. The cover save the unit receives will depend on what/where they are at, but I'm assuming most of the time would be a 5+ (since they are likely out in the open) unless there's an intervening unit or something else that provides them a better cover save. See Pg. 21 of the BRB for the cover save chart and that may help you.

Firing through area terrain is covered on Page 22 as you noted.

If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain, the target is in cover.

So if you are firing out of area terrain and fire through the gaps between elements of that terrain, the target will get a cover save as defined by the terrain (4+ for a ruin, 5+ for fences Etc.)

Dodgy - "Any models firing from more than 2" inside area terrain will confer a cover save to their target"

Wrong.

Classic logical fallacy. A implies B does NOT mean !A implies !B

You do not granta cover save when firing out of less than 2", this does NOT mean that the converse is true.

As DR says - if you are more than 2" in and are firing through 2 pieces of the area terrain, you are shooting "through" area terrain and grant the same cover save as the terrain you are in

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dodgy - "Any models firing from more than 2" inside area terrain will confer a cover save to their target"

Wrong.

Classic logical fallacy. A implies B does NOT mean !A implies !B

You do not granta cover save when firing out of less than 2", this does NOT mean that the converse is true.

As DR says - if you are more than 2" in and are firing through 2 pieces of the area terrain, you are shooting "through" area terrain and grant the same cover save as the terrain you are in

Book says nothing about firing through "2 pieces of terrain". It says they can fire through up to 2" of area terrain without conferring a cover save. So, if they are more than 2" inside area terrain (from the direction they are firing out), that would mean they are firing through more than 2", which confers a save. It also says nothing about it conferring the same save as the cover you are in, unless I missed that part somewhere else.

Not saying you are wrong or that I was right. This is just how I read it.

Dodgywop wrote:Book says nothing about firing through "2 pieces of terrain".

The rules for firing through area terrain do. That's the requirement for the terrain conferring a save... the LOS has to pass between elements of the terrain, not just pass through the terrain area.

It says they can fire through up to 2" of area terrain without conferring a cover save. So, if they are more than 2" inside area terrain (from the direction they are firing out), that would mean they are firing through more than 2", which confers a save.

Except it doesn't. What confers a save is firing between elements of the terrain. Firing through less than 2" negates that save... firing through more than 2" does not automatically confer one.

insaniak wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:Book says nothing about firing through "2 pieces of terrain".

The rules for firing through area terrain do. That's the requirement for the terrain conferring a save... the LOS has to pass between elements of the terrain, not just pass through the terrain area.

It says they can fire through up to 2" of area terrain without conferring a cover save. So, if they are more than 2" inside area terrain (from the direction they are firing out), that would mean they are firing through more than 2", which confers a save.

Except it doesn't. What confers a save is firing between elements of the terrain. Firing through less than 2" negates that save... firing through more than 2" does not automatically confer one.

We aren't talking about firing through. We are talking about firing out.

They are handled 2 different ways.

Firing out of area terrain only says that "therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target unit".

If we are talking about firing through terrain (where the firing unit is not IN the terain) then yes, we then talk about firing through the gaps and elements of the terrain being fired through. But even then, still doesn't state anything about 2 pieces of terrain bearing any effect on how cover is determined.

I'm only going off the info on Pg. 22 of the BRB. If there's more I'm missing elsewhere, let me know. The main reason I'm debating is because this tends to cause some arguments in my gaming group and clarification would be awesome!

Firing out of area terrain = firing through area terrain as noted on P.22 under firing out of area terrain.

"therefore they may fire through"

Dodgywop wrote:We aren't talking about firing through. We are talking about firing out.

They are handled 2 different ways.

The only difference is that for units firing out, less than 2" of terrain doesn't confer a save to the enemy.

Firing out of area terrain only says that "therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target unit".

Exactly. Nothing is said there about firing through more than 2" of terrain automatically conferring a save. It just says that there isn't a save in a specific situation. You still need something to actually confer a save in order for their to be one.

And what confers the save is the rule that LOS has to pass between elements of the terrain.

Dodgy - and, again, you are making a classic logical fallacy. You are creating a negation (not A, i.e. not firing through less than 2") and assuming it results in the opposite of the original result. It doesnt.

The rules for conferring cover to a unit by shooting through area terrain is talking about models that are NOT IN area terrain, but that have area terrain between them and the firer.

A unit that is IN area terrain gets a cover save from all incoming fire, not just if the shots that come from between 2 pieces of the area terrain.

Shooting out should be no different. If you are NOT in the terrain, but you shoot through it, and the LoS goes in-between 2 pieces of the area terrain, then the target gets cover.

If you ARE in the area terrain, then you grant a cover save for shooting through more than 2" of that terrain.

Except that isnt how the cover save rules are defined. Try again

I haven't left the thread, if anyone wants to know, I just like to see what arguments and counter arguments are brought up so I know what I might have to deal with and how to go about dealing with it.

I have a pretty good idea of how to deal with disagreements (I agree with Death, Insaniak and Nos) but i'm still interested in what counters there are, although more so that I can learn how to disprove them.

Nos is correct. What BarBo and Dodgy are arguing makes logical sense, and very likely is what GW was trying to say, but if so they failed.

Whether you're shooting out of area terrain or not, and no matter how far into it you are, your opponent will NOT get cover from that piece of area terrain UNLESS your LOS passes between two pieces of said terrain. Now, if they are partially obscured by some other piece of terrain they'll get cover, but NOT from the area terrain, unless the LOS you draw passes between two pieces of it.

Edit: Scratch that.

Alright so I'm taking back all of that. Just stared long and hard at the quote and it hit me like a jack hammer. Thank you Nos for the telepathic message my friend

No problem, been working on my skillz

The 2" rule means that if you class ruins as area terrain which almost everyone does you could fire through a solid wall but could not return fire as the opponent could not draw LoS.

Wrong. You must ALSO have LOS to shoot out, nothing about the 2" rule exempts you from this.

Actually the rule says that inside area terrain they will position themselves so that they can see the enemy. And get a clear shot.

redkeyboard wrote:Actually the rule says that inside area terrain they will position themselves so that they can see the enemy. And get a clear shot.

That's to clarify the fact that shooting out does not automatically grant a cover save.
You *must* have LoS from each model to make the shot.

redkeyboard wrote:Actually the rule says that inside area terrain they will position themselves so that they can see the enemy. And get a clear shot.

Actually, nothing overrides the rule that requires them to have LOS

Find a rule that overrides it, or concede you are incorrect.

Redkeyboard...remember to read that last line of "Firing out of area terrain." You can't just stop after the first line and call it a day buddy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually, nothing overrides the rule that requires them to have LOS.

Which might just make 5e better than any edition of 40k. Period.

ALL versions of 40k have required you to have LOS to your target - ALL have had TLOS. What made 4th so utterly terrible was the highly abstracted area terrain, and misaaplicaiton of "area" to almost anything that couldnt move, and misunderstanding of the "levels" abstraction and its application

Sorry i am just going by what someone told me earlier that day. So I shall be re reading my rule book.