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Scorched Earth

For quite a while over on the Ulthuan.net boards, I've been experimenting with a somewhat unique approach to High Elf armies. I've decided to post my most recent match here in order to garner some feedback from you all about how you think a list like this might fare versus your army of choice - What do you see being its primary weaknesses, and how would you go about countering it?

Here is the list of my opponent (as accurate as I could make it off of memory):

Warriors of Chaos

Chaos Lord, Chaos Dragon, Stream of Corruption, 5+ ward save, Great Weapon
BSB, Warhorse + Barding
Chaos Sorceror, Mark of Tzeentch, Dispel Scroll, Level 2
Chaos Sorceror, Mark of Slaneesh, Cursed Puppet, Level 2

40 x Marauders, Great Weapons, Full Command
18 x Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Tzeentch, Banner of Rage

5 x Chaos Knights, Standard, Blasted Standard

Chaos Warshrine
Hellcannon
Chaos Spawn

Sparse on the support units without a doubt, but still lots to worry about. 3 breath weapons on the Dragon... I don't even know what to say for that...

High Elf List:

Archmage, Level 4, Book of Ashur, Guardian Phoenix - 355 (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery (Pha's and Banishment) - 165
Mage, Anullian Crystal - 140 (Lore of Light)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Ironcurse Icon - 125 (Lore of Light)

34 x Spearmen, Full Command - 331
10 x Archers, Standard, Banner of Discipline - 135
14 x Archers, Musician - 159

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance - 267
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant - 227
17 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Gem of Courage - 345
5 x Dragon Princes - 150

2 x Great Eagles - 100

Total: 2499

To circumvent the leadership problems that come with having no BSB, I've included some form of leadership test mitigation on each unit of elite infantry. The core all has Ld10 from the Archmage. I was nervous - not taking a BSB is a big step. What better army to test it against than a hellcannon toting, Dragon Terrorizing Warriors list?

I'd like to take a second as well to talk about the Standard of Balance. In a BSB free list, just having immune to psychology is a huge boon. I have to be a bit more careful with positioning due to them losing their ability to flee a charge, however I think the tradeoff is worth it. In addition, the banner also removes frenzy and hatred from enemy units it is fighting against. Once I started to think about it, there are very few armies that this *doesn't* effect:

- Dark Elves (Witch Elves get hosed!)
- Savage Orc Hordes
- The entire WoC army
- Empire warrior priest spam
- Bloodletters
- Plague Monks
- Blood Knights
- Necrotects +Tomb Guard

I think that alone is a good enough list to justify a 45 point banner, and I'm sure there's a ton that just didn't spring into my head right away.

Let's see how it does in a match!

We roll for spells:

Tzeentch Sorceror: Flickering Fire, Gateway
Slaneesh Sorceror: Lash of Slaneesh, Ecstatic Seizures

Great, both spells that can really ruin my day...

Archmage: Net, Banishment, Light of Battle, Timewarp
Crystal Mage: Shem's Burning Gaze
Ring Mage: Speed of Light

Deployment



I look at the way the terrain has gone down, and make a bit of an educated guess that the Dragon will try to approach from the East. I keep my archer bunkers further west, and keep the Western half of the board threatened with elites to dissuade an approach from that direction.

Sure enough, once his characters go down, the Dragon deploys to come around the building. I even go as far as measuring 20" in a circle from the building, and mark it with dice, so I can attempt to predict it's second turn movements.

In the end, I'm happy with the deployment - the coven is at least 2 turns away from the Dragon, which should give me the opportunity to chew though his magic defenses quickly and punish it with banishment.

Turn 1, Warriors of Chaos



Like clockwork, the Dragon heads for the cover of the building, and the rest of his army advances swiftly. The Chaos Knights move up their full distance, so I assume he's got a trick up his sleeves there.

Magic is 7 v 8 due to the crystal and two successful channels. He decides to throw it all at ecstatic seizures on the White Lions, and of course rolls irresistable force. I groan as 9 of my warriors fall to the ground. His miscast gets puppetted to magical feedback, and only puts a wound on the slaneeshi sorceror.

In his shooting phase, his shot from the hellcannon is directed at my spears, but scatters off the board. He puts the Warshrine buff on the Knights, and gives them +1A. Yep, there's the trick.

Turn 1, High Elves



A lot of careful movement here, so I'll do my best to explain. I issue a charge with both the Dragon Princes and Swordmasters - it's a gamble I hope will pay off. The Swordmasters are at average charge range, so there is a decent chance they won't make it. However, I see too much opportunity to pass up, so I roll my dice. As luck would have it, they both make it in. I've got an untouched unit of Swordmasters in combat for the first time in a long time, so I hope they can perform the way the math would lead me to believe.

The Eastern Eagle moves just beyond the combat - I've placed a ruler on top of the dragon to show my reasoning. With the Eagle in position, and the Dragon Princes just to the south, the Dragon's optimal location for unleashing his breath weapons is blocked due to the 1" rule. This effectively forces him into one spot - close range for my Coven :twisted:

The second Eagle moves up and offers two fronts to both units - its front will direct the marauders Westward (the have to overrun) and set him up for a killer flank charge from my swordmasters/spears. Additionally, its flank is presented to the Chaos Warriors, who also must overrun. This overrun would put them square into - you guessed it - the Standard of Balance toting Swordmasters and set them up for a counter charge from the spears in the flank. The banner also removes frenzy from the entire unit, decreasing the damage output versus our normally vulnerable spears as well. If he combo charges the eagle, he effectively has to choose between which trap he wants to walk in to, because one way or another, one unit is blocking the other.

Phew! what a mouthfull.

Magic roll is low, and with no channels the Banner of Sorcery bails me out by adding 3 power dice: 8 v 3. I lead off with a banishment from my level 2 on the dragon with 4 dice. It succeeds, and draws his scroll immediately. The archmage is just out of range still, so I toss two at pha's protection on the swordmasters. He dispels this with his three dice, leaving me free reign with my final two dice. I end up throwing it at the Ring of Corin, happily removing the puppet from the game. Without its magical properties, his sorceror feels very silly playing with a doll.

Shooting puts 5 wounds on the Marauders, and we move on to combat.

The Swordmasters show their worth once again, with their 21 attacks translating to a slightly above average 5 kills. The BSB puts two wounds on them in return, and fails his break test, killing him immediately. I hold and reform with the Dragon Princes, completing my living shield, and swing the Swordmasters around to threaten the flank of the Marauders - now he's got even less choices about where to go!

Warriors of Chaos, Turn 2



The Dragon flies up to the spot I made for him, not wanting to risk failing a charge and losing the model without having a chance to unleash his breath weapons. He also declares charges with both the Marauders and the Warriors. He recognizes his troops need for some flank support, so he opts to move the hellcannon up instead of shooting it this turn.

Magic is 8 v 8, and he starts off with 4 dice on gateway on my unit of swordmasters. His roll is on the low end of average, and he gets his first taste of my +6 to dispel - I stop the spell with 3 of my own dice. He throws the rest at seizures on my spears, but I have the dice advantage as well at this point, and stop it in its tracks.

The dragon rears its ugly (but awesome) head and unleashes fiery and gassy hell on my troops. The gas breath goes on my Dragon Princes, forgetting their ward save also extends to breath weapons. One still takes a wound, however. The other two manage to get the edge of the Swordmaster unit, and they suffer 4 casualties, passing their leadership test.

The Warshrine puts +1 Attack on the Marauders, and in combat he opts to overrun with the Chaos Warriors first, slamming into my unit of swordmasters. This then blocks the marauders, who stay where they are.

High Elves, Turn 2: Judgement Day



The spears take their flank charge, as do the unengaged swordmasters. I forget to do it in this picture, but the eagle moves up to redirect the warshrine, and the Dragon Princes reform to face the Warshrine as well. I also charge the lions in and march the archmage up to Timewarp range (Edit: Also not pictured. I really dropped the ball with Battle Chronicler here ), hoping to deal with a huge chunk of his army in one fell swoop.

This is a critical magic phase for me, so naturally I roll a 1 & 2. Channels and the banner, however, make this a different story. The result is 6 v 2. Not perfect, but it'll do!

I start with 3 dice on banishment on the Dragon with my level 2, which he fails to dispel. 7 hits later, his lord is down to 1 wound, and the dragon takes 2.

I then cast it again with my archmage, and score 8 hits. His lord falls to the ground in a smoldering heap, and the dragon bellows in agony with only 1 wound left.

I resolve the Warriors combat first, putting 12 wounds on them between my two units. He then gives me a look like he's going to throw me in a snowbank when I reveal the Standard of balance, and his warriors only manage 8 casualties. They break, and the spears pursue into the marauder combat.

The swordmasters and spears shred through the marauders, and their 3 attacks isn't enough to match my wounds and static combat resolution. They break from combat, and I pursue them, catching them with both my units.

The unbuffed Lions do ok in combat, dishing out 3 wounds ( 1 crew, 2 cannon). A huge thunderstomp, however, dismantles the unit and kills them to a man.

At this point he concedes the game, only having supporting units and a 1 wound dragon left on the field.

After battle analysis

It only lasted two turns, but I guess that's all you can expect against a list like this - it's pretty much all or nothing. The entire game was paced by the Dragon/Banishment faceoff. Luckily I scored just enough power dice turn 2 to overwhelm his magic defenses and take it out.

So, my thoughts on a BSB-less list: Awesome. The standard of balance was icing on the cake in this matchup, and the other various items kept me from worrying too much about the leadership tests that I had to take. Statistically I'll fail more tests with a setup like this, but I feel I gain so much with the addition of the next arcane slot.


I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts! What this list effectively does is allow the High Elves to access a reliable piece of "artillery" (Banishment @ S7) that they wouldn't otherwise have access to.

I'm also going to preempt the influx of "How do you double up on banishment?" questions:

The Seerstaff of Saphery allows you to choose your spells, however according to the BRB, you need to write it in to your list. In the section about spell selection, it states that if you have already bought the spells as part of army list generation, then they don't count towards the spells you can roll. Hence, 2x Banishment.

Thanks again for reading guys, look forward to your feedback!

D

Ps. if you're interested in reading more battle reports, feel free to check out the link in my sig - it would be great to get feedback from people who play other armies!

Fun and illuminative Battle Report!

Question: Is there a FAQ that says Std of Balance works against Banner of Rage based Frenzy? My reading of the relevant books is that is doesn't: Std of Balance ends Frenzy as though the unit was broken in combat, and Banner of Rage means you don't lose Frenzy even if broken in combat...

Thanks!

Hey there kooshlord!

Glad you enjoyed it! Regarding the Standard of Balance versus Banner of Rage dispute - it seems like one of those "unstoppable force versus immovable wall" type situations. The Standard of Balance has been errata'd to say "they no longer have the hatred and frenzy special rules, should the apply". We ruled it to be in favour of the Standard of Balance, since its wording seems to be geared around the situation being like frenzy never existed on the unit in the first place, so there is nothing to lose. However, I'm sure a strong case can be made for the flip side of the argument, so if it comes up my suggestion would be to 4+ it It could really use a clear FAQ though.

Thanks again - great question!

D

Great report. I like that you pre-empted literally every question I had as I went along. That's really above and beyond for a report once you factor in the diagrams. Add some fluffy backstory and you have WD beat.

Brewmeister –

First off, well written Bat Rep. As a proponent of MSU style of play (with WoC however), I found your MSU brief in the other thread excellent. Finally, your use of the eagle to deny a good spot for the dragon was nothing short of brilliant. Not only did it indicate a clear risk assessment on your part (mobile breath weapons being the most dangerous thing to your list.), but shows you were thinking at least a turn ahead on how to mitigate that danger. I thought your solution was creative and also had the effect of turning the dragon away from your line to lessen his options for a follow up charge.

However, I feel your opponent played an extremely poor game. Shoving a small unit of knights, even chaos knights, into the face of swordmasters, was suicidal. I am not sure what he was thinking with the Warshrine. It should have been on his line to protect flanks, charge any diverting eagles, act as a speedbump/road block itself, etc. The dang thing is T6 and has a 4+/4++. What is it doing hiding in the back. I am not sure what he was hiding from behind the house. Left him much too far out on the flank.

I will certainly be checking out your threads on the HE forum, just don’t tell my buddies, this manly man WoC player may never live it down!

Hinge

Hey Guys!

Thanks for the responses, very much appreciated. Battle reports definitely take a decent chunk of time to create, but it's definitely worth it for the feedback you get - both good and bad.

@ hinge - Thank you very much for your kind words! I agree with you completely about the Warriors player. I find that due to the normally resilient nature of Chaos troops, players tend to overestimate how much their troops can handle rather than underestimate. This was definitely the case here - a 3+ save only goes so far with the volume of attacks the swordmasters can put out.

I also totally agree about the Dragon - that thing needed to be in combat turn 2 to prevent it from getting leveled by banishment.

I would definitely recommend you check out the thread - the overarching strategies of MSU playing can be applied to any army, and there are a ton of resources over there on it. In particular, also check out a thread by "Swordmaster of Hoeth", who is currently experimenting with extreme MSU - we're talking units of 8-10, and a maximum size of 20. He's having a great deal of success too!

@ Powerclaw - Thank you to you as well!

Add some fluffy backstory and you have WD beat.

Incidentally, this reminded me of something I wrote right when I first picked up this style of army. Ask and ye shall recieve!


The Coven of Light

War is all the Noble Alinar has ever known. Such is the curse of living on the northern borders of Ulthuan. Days blend into nights, and the only thing to mark the passing of time is the approach of the next Chaos incursion or Dark Elf raiding party.

Alinar looks around at the warriors in his troupe. The last battle has taken its toll on the brave soldiers. During this battle, Alinar's second in command - a fine warrior named Yrveth - had fallen to a cruel Dark Elf Sorceress. He and his men had looked on as the witch corrupted his mind with her magic and drew him in, only to offer him up as a sacrifice to Khaine. The scene is something he can't shake from his mind, and by the looks of the others, neither can they.

Alinar stands in front of his men and begins to speak

"We are the warriors of the north. We are Ulthuan's last bastion of defense. If we fall, the floodgates open. Not only our families, but our entire way of life is in jeopardy. The re-inforcements we were promised aren't coming. All that stands in the path of evil is us!"

He steadies his gaze on a young looking elf dressed in dark leather armour.

"what is the report Naenor?"

"We've spotted enemy activity over the next ridge sir"

"Prepare yourselves. This is to be a long night"

A murmur begins to pass through the crowd.

"You'll have a chance to rest when you're either dead, or Ulthuan is razed to the ground. Until then, we show these defilers that evil has no place on our soil!"

**********

Alinar peers down from the crest of the ridge. Below lies a river bed, which forms a natural choke point. He signals to his commanders that this is where the battle is to take place. At this point he's used to being outnumbered.

In the distance he hears a gibbering cry, causing his blood to run cold. Daemons, he thinks to himself. Asuryan must truly be testing his determination. Not since the days of the first Phoenix Kings had Daemons ventured this far south.

He barks some orders, and his soldiers get into place.

********

The earth in the distance begins to move. The keen eyed elves can see the illusion for what it really is - swarms of horrific looking creatures from the realm of chaos.

Among the swarm lurks a beast that stands heads above the rest. Alinar rests a hand on the hilt of his great-sword and mutters a prayer to Isha.


********

The battle lines collide and elf squares off against all manner of otherworldly beast. The warriors hold out as well as can be expected. Alinar glances left and watches in horror as the young scout Naenor is impaled by the blade of a forked tongued fiend.

Knowing today will be his last on this plane, he prepares himself to face the menace from above.

*********

Within a ring of balefire, Alinar exchanges blows with the winged monstrosity. A sweeping blow from the fiend's axe glances just above the elf's head.

Alinar springs back, aiming a blow of his own at the creature's Achilles tendon. The creature leaps up into the air and laughs mockingly at the elf.

Alinar looks through the flames to see one of the bolts from his reapers strike home in the chest of a many legged beast. He finds solace knowing that the Daemon host was feeling the sting of his warriors.

He glances back to his adversary just in time to catch the crack of its whip connect with the front of his armour and toss him like a doll to the ground.

His greatsword flies from his grasp, and he watches in dismay as it goes through the flames that encircle the battleground. As he loses sight of his sword, his perspective shifts to the top of the hill, where he notices a single point of light. Dim at first, the light grows in intensity, revealing four stoic figures.

Suddenly, orbs of light erupt from the hilltop. The brightness is more than Alinar can stand, and he turns his gaze to look upon the Greater Daemon hovering above him. The orbs of light slam into it, sending great shudders through it's massive body. It falls to the ground, revealing great gaping holes and seared flesh where the orbs struck.

With the creature weakened, the balefire surrounding Alinar dissipates. Without hesitation, he leaps to his greatsword and charges at the beast. The monster lets out a deep guttural howl as he plunges the sword deep into its neck. The daemon crumples to the ground, and the high elven host lets out a rallying cry.

Alinar looks back up to the hill, which is now lit up as bright as day. Orbs of light are volleying from the staffs of the Mages, each one striking true, purifying Daemon flesh.

"I guess the re-inforcements came after all..." Alinar says to himself, as he charges back into the foray. The disorganized, disheartened Daemons prove to be easy prey.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I would definitely recommend you check out the thread - the overarching strategies of MSU playing can be applied to any army, and there are a ton of resources over there on it. In particular, also check out a thread by "Swordmaster of Hoeth", who is currently experimenting with extreme MSU - we're talking units of 8-10, and a maximum size of 20. He's having a great deal of success too!

Will do, especially "Swordmasters" since it sounds like he is experimenting with what I think is the next evolution of my list. Currently my largest Marauder unit is 22 and largest Warrior unit is 14. It would not be a big step to trim down a bit.

As far as success with MSU, with a 24-3 tourney record with MSU WoC, I think I have proven that MSU can work in even the most competitive environment. Now I need to ice down my arm since I sprained it patting myself on the back.


Hinge

Have you got your list posted somewhere? I'd be very interested to see the style put into action in a different army!

D

@Brewmeister

The best place to find comments on my WoC is a thread I started at COTEC called Hinge’s Ramblings.

http://s4.zetaboards.com/cotec/topic/943139/1/


Its part army design, part sharing experiences of a player that is lucky enough to go to a good number of tourneys around the US. It is way overdue for a new topic (I am thinking Meta Game in a tourney) but frankly I had been playing a Carno led Lizzie list lately.

Not nearly as elegantly written or organized as your thread, more something as the mood strikes.

I also put a couple of Bat Reps with my lists in the Bat Rep section once I figured out how to use Battle Chronicler. You may want to check those out.

Hinge

*applause*

Can you have banishment twice without having loremaster?

Hey w3rm,

I mention it in my original post, but I'll clarify a bit here.

On page 124 it states that if you have a wizard that can choose specific spells, it has to be written in to your roster at the time you write your army.

On page 490 it states that if a model has no choice over what spells it knows, of if it's because the spells have been bought as part of army selection, then the spells can be duplicated. The no choice section of the sentence is in reference to having no choice at the time of rolling - I have no choice, because the spells are already written in. I *have* to take Banishment and Pha's. It's in my roster. Therefore, I am now free to roll for spells as normal, and subsequently get banishment again.

Hope this helps!

D

Ah thanks that does clear things up!