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here is my tier 3 epic butcher list

eButcher
wardog
doom reavers with escort
doom reavers with escort
doom reavers with escort
doom reavers
fenris
devastator

what do you guys think?

Why not drop the 4th unit of DR's and fit in a second 'jack to bring it up to Tier 4?

I'd also go with Beast or a Kodiak for his jack(s). The Devastator isn't that strong as a single jack. Those two specific jacks are very focus efficient so it won't tax as much to run them if you get a bad focus roll.

No spriggin?

I'd take the sprig only if it were character limited and I've used Beast in the other list, TBH. I know everyone has a chubber over Templecon and the Sprig now, but I still like Beast over it.

did that win do that much for the spriggin and Khador in general? Interesting.

Sorry, I'm over in the UK and have been reading Jamie P's battle reports on the UK forums for the past year or so, so I've always been wary of that jack.

I've always been under the impression that the Spriggan is one of the better non-C options for khador...

The Spriggan and Devastator are the only useful non-character jacks(IMO), for those that can spare focus, with the Devastator only being useful if you plan to use bulldoze or already have a spriggan.

For eButcher Drago or Beast 09 is probably the best jack as they are so good and so focus efficient(i personally like Drago since hes less points then Beast and charges for free thus is more reliable/efficient with eButchers crazy focus), else a Devastator is ok with the goal of getting it 1 focus(from butcher or a koldun lord) so it can run and bulldoze each turn. I think a berserker is also an ok choice with eButcher choice if you really want to save points, but its overall an entirely useless jacks.

I think a kodiak is worse then a berserker for a few reasons with eButcher 1) it cant charge for free 2) it hits equally at equally low pow/mat and, most importantly as this is the reason you are taking it, 3) it costs more

I would never take a Spriggan with eButcher as you lack the focus to run it appropriately and your force is probably mostly/purely melee anyway so targeting flares are considerably worse.

You don't take the Kodiak to kill things. You take the Kodiak for Smash and Grab. The 'zerker has the same P+S and worse MAT than the Kodiak. You also have the steam attack that is pretty good at clearing out high def / low arm infantry.

RAWR doomies!

12thRonin wrote:You don't take the Kodiak to kill things. You take the Kodiak for Smash and Grab. The 'zerker has the same P+S and worse MAT than the Kodiak. You also have the steam attack that is pretty good at clearing out high def / low arm infantry.

Didn't have my book, for some reason was thinking zerkers were higher mat then they are and yes you definitely are taking the Kodiak for smash and grab mostly, but that means it needs ~3 focus, which is not something worth while imo.

Why 3?
1 to charge
2 to boost its fists since its mats low, i mean even needing 5, 6, or 7's on most other heavies, you probably still want to boost this, else you are taking a huge risk of no smash and grab, which is the only reason you are using it really.

Overall its just too much of a focus hog, super slow, to low of mat, and its fists are too weak. Yes the vent is nice, but I could take a mortar and get the same effect(a high pow AoE though less then the steam) every turn, more reliable(its ranges vs melee), and for WAAAY cheaper.

So lets look at a direct point equivalent jack(Drago)

Same offensive stats, except Drago has higher mat. Both have 2 attacks with the same damage. Kodiak can also vent if needed.
Defensively drago has a slightly higher def, but lower armor and less boxes in the damage grid.

Kodiak has pathfinder, drago doesn't.
Drago also has an affinity(incredible with vlad, doesnt matter with anyone else) and an imprint(situational)

Now to the meat:
Kodiak runs for free, Dragon runs AND charges for free
Both have a chain attack: Kodiak is Smash and Grab, Drago is Bloodbath. Both require hitting the same target with both initial attacks. The higher mat and free charge of Drago is a HUGE deal here. With Drago not-boosting is now a viable option, let alone he charged for free, so hes essentially a free focus warjack.

Add in Drago has critical Amputation, which rocks when it occurs.

The one huge disadvantage of Drago over the Kodiak(in non-vlad lists) is that you will almost never give him focus as hes unstable, but one of the whole reasons to take Drago is his focus efficiency. The one time you give him focus(probably a potential 3 on like pButchers feat turn) its for a big WHAM on a Warjack, Warbeast, or Warcaster, with the expectation of him dieing, but it being a great trade.

Overall I just think the Kodiak is a so-so jack that is slightly overcosted, and in almost any circumstance where I would think about a Kodiak due to the pointage, I take Drago instead. If I am REALLY that concerned with the pointage of my single heavy I take a zerker as its their to take a beating and give one when it can, but I just avoid taking them in almost any case as Drago is so much better for 2 points.

SilverSaint wrote:
Didn't have my book, for some reason was thinking zerkers were higher mat then they are and yes you definitely are taking the Kodiak for smash and grab mostly, but that means it needs ~3 focus, which is not something worth while imo.

Why 3?
1 to charge
2 to boost its fists since its mats low, i mean even needing 5, 6, or 7's on most other heavies, you probably still want to boost this, else you are taking a huge risk of no smash and grab, which is the only reason you are using it really.

One to charge yes. You don't have to boost on 5's or 6's since the odds are still well within your favor. If you want to, go ahead and waste that focus. So you don't have to boost until DEF 13+. He should be looking for other things anyway. Kodis are still better all around than a 'zerker.

Overall its just too much of a focus hog, super slow, to low of mat, and its fists are too weak. Yes the vent is nice, but I could take a mortar and get the same effect(a high pow AoE though less then the steam) every turn, more reliable(its ranges vs melee), and for WAAAY cheaper.

Lets just say I agree you're going to give it three focus (which I don't). You're using it to likely do a DHT into the caster or knock down a pair of heavies or a headbutt. The damage by the fists is irrelevant to that goal. This list has 24 doom reavers to do the heavy lifting. Taking a mortar doesn't work for this list because that breaks the tier so what the mortar can or can't do is irrelevant.

So lets look at a direct point equivalent jack(Drago) /snipped a bunch of other text

Again, irrelevant since he's not in tier.

Now to the meat:
Kodiak runs for free, Dragon runs AND charges for free
Both have a chain attack: Kodiak is Smash and Grab, Drago is Bloodbath. Both require hitting the same target with both initial attacks. The higher mat and free charge of Drago is a HUGE deal here. With Drago not-boosting is now a viable option, let alone he charged for free, so hes essentially a free focus warjack.

You won't get Bloodbath off reliably. He has to hit and not kill the same target to trigger it and it doesn't have reach. Noob stomping doesn't count as getting it off reliably. Anyone who sees Drago knows to keep jacks / beasts away from infantry until he's neutralized.

Add in Drago has critical Amputation, which rocks when it occurs.

So does a Destroyer, doesn't have the ability to kill itself, and is a tier option.

As a question back, why is the P+S on the fists of the kodiak so horrible but not for Drago?

Both Drago and a Kodiak are terrible(P+S), but i said they are the same in that regard, though it was indirect.

Essentially Drago is more focus efficient then a Kodiak which is huge, besides that they are essentially equal.

The Drago discussion had nothing to do with tier(though that was the OP i ended up responding to other statements made involving beast, spriggans, and a devastor), obviously in tier you aren't taking any character. I still wouldn't take a Kodiak, I would take a Devastator. If I somehow couldn't take a a Devastor, I would take a berserker for the 2 extra points and the extra focus efficiency over a kodiak. eButcher really wants his focus, let alone its not even constant. With a berserker I know exactly what I am going to get from it each turn pre-planned, a completely autonomous warjack that can potentially block/delay other models and even maybe kill something. I also get 2 more points which means a manhunter or an UA for this Tier List.

With a kodiak...I can do exactly what a berserker can if I just want to run(infact I do this even better with pathfinder, more boxes, and higher armor), except now I can't even charge to kill stuff without focus, so I have to 100% stay in the control area(in most cases this is easy) cause I need 1 focus(this can ruin plans) to charge anything and I do pretty much exactly what the berserker will do damage wise, with an occasional grab and smash(which is sweet) if I happen to hit both times with my fists.

I just think the roll of the two is basically the same...filling warjack points. I mean model vs model a Kodiak IS better then a berserker, no denying that, its also more expensive. So I maswell get the cheaper almost as good option, with an extra manhunter or UA in the end.

eButcher does grant his jacks the ability to charge or slam for free. So, in this situation, the Kodiak would then have a higher MAT Higher ARM, usually Higher DEF due to his steam. Much more versatility with pathfinder and dual open fists. more hit boxes, and you never worry about it exploding if you need to full boost it. Conclusion: A kodiak would do everything equal or better than a berzerker in this list.