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So I've been mulling over the idea of a Space Marine codex redux to fix some of the problems the current gen Codex has and during this whole thought process one thought enters my mind: Chapter permutations, in other words Chapters which function slightly differently than the Codex/Ultramarines norm.

The game initially started off with a somewhat Archetype system in the form of Index Astartes, in where the Chapter received benefits and unique unit organization in exchange for some downsides. After that we recieved the Chapter Traits system, which seemed to have been loved by many but lost favour within GW probably due to design direction. Finally we have the current iteration, Chapter Tactics, which is currently exclusive to Special Characters.

Now all of these have their upsides and downsides. Chapter Traits provide the most flexibility and customization, but can seemingly be open to abuse (this was mainly due to the base Codex not getting enough over the Chapter Traits chapters and the Drawbacks not being as robust or harmful to choice). Chapter Tactics allows you to place a points cost on these benefits and there could be avenues to place it into a system that works for non-Special Independent Characters, the downside being you have to take these certain HQ units in order to gain the benefit. Lastly we have the seeming middle-ground of per-established archetypes which are self-contained "modules" which can be easily balanced, the downside being that there isn't as much customization present and that you are forced to conform to one of these archetypes if you're not using the standard Codex.

What I ask of you, the Dakka Dakka community, is which of these options you would want to see explored in a new Space Marine codex, any ideas you had concerning the option you picked, and why you picked that option over the others. I'm not looking for heated debate about which is factually better (as it pretty much comes down to personal preferance and taste), but which you guys prefer.

I also have a few questions depending on what you choose. If you choose archetypes and could only pick eight archetypes to be included in the codex (not including Ultramarines), which eight chapters would you pick?

If you chose Traits, how would you work traits this time around in order to prevent abuse of the system?

If you chose Chapter Tactics, what are your thoughts about such things being tied to certain types of Independent Characters?

I liked the Chapter Traits from the previous codex. I would basicly keep the system the same, but make the disadvantages more. . disadvantageous. I don't have the codex on me to provide examples, but make them quite harsh compared to the advantages.

But I also wouldn't mind pre-set archetypes. I would choose:
-Raven Guard(Infiltration/stealth)
-Imperial Fists(anti-armour/seige)
-Iron Hands(bionics/Mechanicus)
-White Scars(fast assault/bike)
-Salamanders(defensive/flamer+melta)
-Crimson Fists(less standard troops/more vets)
- Aroura Chapter(armoured warfare)
-21st founding Chapter(mutant)

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question correctly so excuse me if my answer seems a little off.

I chose Archetypes because I feel like eight different sets of special rules would be plenty. If there were only, say, two or three then I'd have to reconsider. Even with eight established armies, I don't feel like people would be restricted that much because they could paint and model their army more or less as they choose and then just say it counts as "Chapter A" with such and such rules. Because those rules would always be the same whenever someone played against "Chapter A"-type armies, opponents would be able to learn ways to defeat "Chapter A" and would be less likely to whine about certain Chapter Tactics/Traits being abused. At the same time one of these eight Chapters would likely become the favorite among competitive players and opponents would whine anyway, but that's just the nature of any game or sport where there are winners and losers. As for the eight Chapters I'd pick excluding armies like the Blood Angels who have their own codex or the Ultramarines, I'd pick the following with some possible rule changes:

1. Imperial Fists: cheaper thunder hammers, cheaper storm shields, more expensive assault squads

2. Salamanders: cheaper terminator/artificer armor, cheaper flame and melta weapons, more expensive bikes/land speeders

3. Raven Guard: cheaper assault squads, more expensive terminators

4. Blood Ravens: cheaper/better tactical marines, some sort of bonus for holding objectives, more expensive specialty units

5. White Scars: cheaper bikes, more expensive terminators/devastators

6. Deathwatch: I know it's a long shot but I'd love to see a playable Deathwatch army again; special ammo/weapons for tactical squads, no devastator/assault/terminator squads

7. Crimson Fists: limits on specialty squads, but entire army is Stubborn or something similar

8. New Chapter that focuses on troops, maybe allow for induction of IG guardsmen/stormtroopers

Howz about:

-Raven Guard(Infiltration/stealth)
Non terminator, non vehicle Elite infantry get infiltrate as do upto 1 squad of tactical marines. All Sgts have access to lightning claws and master-crafting at a reduced price.
Drawback: For each tactical squad after the first must include a unit of scouts.

-Imperial Fists(anti-armour/seige)
All elites have tankhunters, stubborn and preferred enemy (Iron Warriors)
Drawback - 2 fast attack slots,

-Iron Hands(bionics/Mechanicus) - Sternguard/Vanguard and honourguard as well as characters have bionics giving a 6+ feel no pain. Powerfists are mastercrafted.
Drawback - only venerable dreads allowed but 1 can be taken as HQ. 0-1 terminator squad (either assault or regular - not both!)

-White Scars(fast assault/bike) - Bikes as scoring troops choices. 2 Heavy support slots

-Salamanders(defensive/flamer+melta)
Flamers/melta/thunderhammer weapons are master crafted. 2 flamers/meltaguns per tac squad, preferred enemy (dark eldar)
Initiative 3.9 (strike before I3, but after I4)

-Crimson Fists(less standard troops/more vets) - 1-6 Elite slots, 1-3 troops. Sternguard are scoring. 0-2 HS, 0-2 FA. Preferred enemy (Orks)

- Aroura Chapter(armoured warfare)
Baal predators and storm raven accessibility. Land raiders as Dedicated transports for any unit. 0-2 elites, 0-2 FA, 0-4 HS, 0-2 Devastator squad

Phototoxin wrote:Howz about:

-Raven Guard(Infiltration/stealth)
Non terminator, non vehicle Elite infantry get infiltrate as do upto 1 squad of tactical marines. All Sgts have access to lightning claws and master-crafting at a reduced price.
Drawback: For each tactical squad after the first must include a unit of scouts.

-Imperial Fists(anti-armour/seige)
All elites have tankhunters, stubborn and preferred enemy (Iron Warriors)
Drawback - 2 fast attack slots,

-Iron Hands(bionics/Mechanicus) - Sternguard/Vanguard and honourguard as well as characters have bionics giving a 6+ feel no pain. Powerfists are mastercrafted.
Drawback - only venerable dreads allowed but 1 can be taken as HQ. 0-1 terminator squad (either assault or regular - not both!)

-White Scars(fast assault/bike) - Bikes as scoring troops choices. 2 Heavy support slots

-Salamanders(defensive/flamer+melta)
Flamers/melta/thunderhammer weapons are master crafted. 2 flamers/meltaguns per tac squad, preferred enemy (dark eldar)
Initiative 3.9 (strike before I3, but after I4)

-Crimson Fists(less standard troops/more vets) - 1-6 Elite slots, 1-3 troops. Sternguard are scoring. 0-2 HS, 0-2 FA. Preferred enemy (Orks)

- Aroura Chapter(armoured warfare)
Baal predators and storm raven accessibility. Land raiders as Dedicated transports for any unit. 0-2 elites, 0-2 FA, 0-4 HS, 0-2 Devastator squad

Im liking that
But the IF and WS need to have more of a draw back.
I remember reading somewhere that WS dont have any Terminator armour

Phototoxin wrote:Howz about:

-Raven Guard(Infiltration/stealth)
Non terminator, non vehicle Elite infantry get infiltrate as do upto 1 squad of tactical marines. All Sgts have access to lightning claws and master-crafting at a reduced price.
Drawback: For each tactical squad after the first must include a unit of scouts.

-Imperial Fists(anti-armour/seige)
All elites have tankhunters, stubborn and preferred enemy (Iron Warriors)
Drawback - 2 fast attack slots,

-Iron Hands(bionics/Mechanicus) - Sternguard/Vanguard and honourguard as well as characters have bionics giving a 6+ feel no pain. Powerfists are mastercrafted.
Drawback - only venerable dreads allowed but 1 can be taken as HQ. 0-1 terminator squad (either assault or regular - not both!)

-White Scars(fast assault/bike) - Bikes as scoring troops choices. 2 Heavy support slots

-Salamanders(defensive/flamer+melta)
Flamers/melta/thunderhammer weapons are master crafted. 2 flamers/meltaguns per tac squad, preferred enemy (dark eldar)
Initiative 3.9 (strike before I3, but after I4)

-Crimson Fists(less standard troops/more vets) - 1-6 Elite slots, 1-3 troops. Sternguard are scoring. 0-2 HS, 0-2 FA. Preferred enemy (Orks)

- Aroura Chapter(armoured warfare)
Baal predators and storm raven accessibility. Land raiders as Dedicated transports for any unit. 0-2 elites, 0-2 FA, 0-4 HS, 0-2 Devastator squad

To be fair, your suggestion is a bad idea for the same reason the old traits system was: If you're not gonna take something, losing a slot doesn't matter and it's all advantages. I'd prefer more stuff like your Salamanders suggestion (which needs more of a drawback) that will affect you in-game, not just "lose x FOC slots".

Well, if you voted Archetypes then you may be a fan of my WiP Space Marine Codex.

Personally, I feel Traits can be abused too easily, leading to people selecting the best and selecting draw-backs which have little affect on their intentions (this is akin to the ol' Iron Warriors 4 Heavy Support slots).
Archetypes on the other hand capture the majority of possible chapter types, representing the main chapters and play-styles, without being too abusable IMHO.

Some potential ideas. Note you may see some funkiness mentioned (like Deathwatch Kill Teams), these are just musing for the Codex Space Marine redux I am planning.

Codex/Ultramarines
- Combat Tactics: As Codex Space Marines.
- War Veterans: Sternguard and Vanguard Veteran Squads may all have the Preferred Enemy universal special rule against one of the following: Eldar (includes Dark Eldar), Chaos Space Marines (includes Daemonkin but not Summoned Daemons), Daemons (includes Daemonkin), Tau Empire (includes all species in codex), Necrons, Orks, or Tyranids. All squads must have the same Preferred Enemy type and any squad wishing to benefit from this special rule must be modeled accordingly. (( Time to bring back Tyrannic War Veterans in a cool, simple, and flexible way. ))
- Additionally the bare-bones Codex/Ultramarines guys get access to the widest variety of units.

MAJOR DEVIANT CHAPTERS
White Scars
- Leave Them No Quarter: Any Space Marine unit that normally benefits from Combat Tactics benefits from the Counter-Attack universal special rule instead.
- Space Marine Bike Squads: Any Space Marine Bike squad that is at least five models strong may be taken as Troops choices.
- Bike Veterans: Any Vanguard Veteran squad may replace its Jump Packs for Space Marine Bikes for +X points per model. Any Vanguard Veteran squad which does so gains the Hit & Run and Skilled Riders universal special rules and can Outflank (even if the mission does not allow for reserves or Outflank to be used).
- Abhor the Slow: Any chapter using the White Scars rules may not take any Venerable Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Thunderfire Cannons, Vindicators, or Whirlwinds.

Imperial Fists
- Never Give Up: Any Space Marine unit that normally benefits from Combat Tactics benefits from the Stubborn universal special rule instead.
- Siege Masters: All units belonging to the chapter gain the Tank Hunters universal special rule against enemy vehicles and fortifications. Additionally, if a unit belonging to the chapter is occupying a piece of man-made terrain (bunkers, fortifications, ruins, etc) than that unit benefits from the Stealth universal special rule as well.
- Siege Equipment: You may take one Ironclad Dreadnought as a Troops choice for every Tactical squad you take. Note that Ironclad Dreadnoughts may never qualify as a mandatory Troops choice. Additionally, you may take up to two Predators, Vindicators, or Whirlwinds as a single Heavy Support choice.
- Of What Use Are You?: Some units just are not viable in sieges or siege defense. A chapter using these special rules may not take any Space Marine Bike squads, Attack Bike squads, Scout Bike squads, Land Speeder squadrons, Land Speeder Storms, Land Raiders, Land Raider Crusaders, or Land Raider Redeemers. Units belonging to the chapter may not take drop pods as transports for any unit and units may never Deep Strike.

Iron Hands
- Iron Resolve: Any squads which would normally benefit from the Combat Tactics special rule benefit from the Stubborn universal special rule instead.
- Bionics: Your non-special character Independent Characters may take Artificer Bionics (4+ Feel No Pain save) for +X points. Any Tactical squad or Devastator squad may be given Bionics (5+ Feel No Pain save) for +X points. Units with Artificer Bionics or Bionics or any unit they join can no longer run or make sweeping advances.
- Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients: You may take Dreadnoughts as Elites or Heavy Support choices. In addition, your Dreadnoughts get extra wargear/upgrade options.
- Iron Father: Your Chaplains may be given a servo-arm for +X points or a servo-harness for +X points. If they are given a servo-arm or servo-harness they also recieve the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule. Additionally, any Chaplain may take a retinue of Servitors.
- Terminator Armour: Any Sergeant which is part of a Tactical squad or Devastator squad may replace their regular wargear for Terminator Armour, a Power Sword, and a Storm Bolter for +25 points. These Terminators may enter and be transported by Rhinos and Razorbacks, but will take up two spaces in the transport instead of just one.
- Casualties of War: A chapter using these special rules may not take Librarians, Sternguard Veteran squads, Terminator squads, Terminator Assault squads, Scout squads, Vanguard Veteran squads, Scout Bike squads, or Land Speeder Storms.

Salamanders
- Plasma Coil Modifications: The Salamanders utilize special plasma coils which increase the potency of their flamers and melta weapons. All flamers are AP 4 instead of AP 5 and all heavy flamers are AP 3 instead of AP 4. All meltaguns have their range increased by 6" and all multi-meltas have their range increased by 12".
- Burn in Flame: Any model equipped with a heavy bolter may replace it for a heavy flamer at no additional points cost. Any Terminator may replace their heavy flamer for a multi-melta for +X points.
- Salamanders' Mantle: Any unit with an Iron Halo may upgrade it to a Salamanders' Mantle for +X points. Any non-special character Independent Character may be given a Salamanders' Mantle for +X points. A Salamanders' Mantle confers a 3+ Invulnerable save to the wearer.
- Ceramite Armour: The Melta special rule has no effect against vehicles of a chapter using this special rule.
- Hammers of the Forge: All Thunder Hammers used in a chapter using these special rules count as being master-crafted. Terminator squads may replace their power fists for a thunder hammer for +5 points per model. Any model that does not already have access to a thunder hammer but has access to or is equipped with a power weapon may replace one of their weapons with a thunder hammer for +30 points (+15 if it is replacing a power weapon).
- Slow and Stern: All models count as having Initiative 3 in close combat (unless it would be less). A Space Marine army using these special rules may only ever take a single Fast Attack choice (even if they would normally have more) and may not take any Assault squads, Vanguard Veteran squads, Land Speeder squadrons, Scout Bike squads, or Land Speeder Storms. Your Independent Characters may not be equipped with Jump Packs.

Raven Guard
- Swift as the Wind: All models in the army that would normally benefit from the Combat Tactics special rule instead benefit from the Fleet universal special rules.
- Wings of the Raven: Assault Squads count as Troops choices instead of Fast Attack choices.
- Claws of the Raven: All lightning claws in an army using this special rule count as being master-crafted. Additionally, any model which has access to or is equipped with a power weapon that does not already have access to a lightning claw may replace one of their weapons for a lightning claw for +15 points (free if the model already has a power weapon) OR may replace their close combat weapon and ranged weapons for a pair of lightning claws for +30 points (+15 if already equipped with a power weapon).
- Hit and Run Tactics: Your Vanguard Veteran squads equipped with Jump Packs benefit from the Hit & Run universal special rule.
- Death From Above: So long as you have a Scout squad in play, any unit arriving via Deep Strike may re-roll failed reserves rolls. Also, due to the aided precision provided by the Scout squad, units entering play via Deep Strike scatter D6" less (normally D6" rather than 2D6") and do not suffer any penalties for landing in difficult terrain.
- Solitary Warriors: You may never have more than one of any type of Independent Character in your army, this includes special characters (for example, you may never have more than one Captain in your army).
- Eye to Eye: A Space Marine army using these special rules may not take any Thunderfire Cannons, Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Raiders, Land Raider Crusaders, or Land Raider Redeemers.

MINOR DEVIANT TRAITS
These are basically Chapter Traits, but without a huge impact like the Major Deviant Chapters and without the balancing hassle of downsides. These Traits simply replace Combat Tactics and War Veterans and you can take two of them (you can even buy them back, if you wish). Entries marked with a single asterisk may not be taken together and entries marked with a double asterisk may not be taken together. (( Could definitely use more options too. ))
- Combat Tactics: See Codex/Ultramarines above.
- Blessed are the Skilled: Your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units.
- Faith is it's Own Reward**: Access to special/unique 1-wound Chaplain unit (can take three an a single Elites choice).
- Honour the Past: You can have up to two of the same Relics in your army instead of just one. Additionally, all non-special character Independent Characters may take one additional Relic.
- Knowledge is Power**: Access to special/unique 1-wound Librarian unit (can take three as a single Elites choice).
- Purity Above All: A single non-Sergeant member of any Tactical squad may be upgraded to an Apothecary for +X points. These Apothecaries have the same special rules, stats, wargear, and options as in the Command squad.
- Rend the Enemy Apart: You may upgrade any Assault squad or Vanguard Veteran squad to have the Rending special rule in close combat for +X points.
- See, But Don't Be Seen*: All units in the army that would normally benefit from Combat Tactics instead benefit from the Stealth universal special rule.
- Stubborn*: All units in the army that would normally benefit from Combat Tactics instead benefit from the Stubborn universal special rule.
- War Veterans: See Codex/Ultramarines section above.
- Weapons of Choice: You may select ONE choice from each of the two categories. Close Combat: The selected weapon of one of the following types are always considered to be master-crated: power fists, lightning claws, or thunder hammers. Ranged: The weapons that are part of the selected type are always considered to be twin-linked (weapons that are already twin-linked have no added effect): Heat (flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, multi-meltas), Energy (plasma pistols, plasma guns, plasma cannons), Bolters (bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters, heavy bolters).

Blood Ravens
- Honour the Past
- Knowledge is Power

Crimson Fists
- Blessed are the Skilled
- War Veterans (Orks)

Wait, the siege chapter isn't allowed to take the line-breaking Land Raiders? That makes absolutely zero sense!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Wait, the siege chapter isn't allowed to take the line-breaking Land Raiders? That makes absolutely zero sense!

Based on the Forge World rules for Siege Assault armies, the only Land Raiders that are allowable in that list are ones with ordnance weapons on them (Achilles and Helios). Regular Land Raiders are not used as, typically, Vindicators are the preferred method of line breaking with the transports swooping in after them. It makes sense, given that yes, the Land Raider does carry an impressive arsenal and can transport troops, but it doesn't have the punch (lore-wise) to bust through barricades or fortifications like the Vindicator can.

But you also have to consider from a table top perspective disallowing a space marine army Land Raiders also removes the only possible delivery method for terminators, and considering the Imperial Fists representative in the codex *is* a terminator that may not be the best idea lol.

Marik Law wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Wait, the siege chapter isn't allowed to take the line-breaking Land Raiders? That makes absolutely zero sense!

Based on the Forge World rules for Siege Assault armies, the only Land Raiders that are allowable in that list are ones with ordnance weapons on them (Achilles and Helios). Regular Land Raiders are not used as, typically, Vindicators are the preferred method of line breaking with the transports swooping in after them. It makes sense, given that yes, the Land Raider does carry an impressive arsenal and can transport troops, but it doesn't have the punch (lore-wise) to bust through barricades or fortifications like the Vindicator can.

Why not let them have 0-1 Land raider redeemer/crusader
or give them the option of taking the Achilles and Helios to make up for it?

Although I would still use them in city fight with out land raiders

I always loved Traits and Drawbacks; these look pretty clutch already.

I'd also love to see the Psychic Powers section of your Chapter Creator finished, Marik. Lol.

Moderas wrote:But you also have to consider from a table top perspective disallowing a space marine army Land Raiders also removes the only possible delivery method for terminators, and considering the Imperial Fists representative in the codex *is* a terminator that may not be the best idea lol.

I'd be willing to allow Terminator squads and Terminator Assault squads using the Imperial Fists rules to take Land Raiders as Transports. Seems reasonable enough.

redkommando wrote:Why not let them have 0-1 Land raider redeemer/crusader
or give them the option of taking the Achilles and Helios to make up for it?

Although I would still use them in city fight with out land raiders

I'd like to try to avoid using Forgeworld models and figures as best I can.

odorofdeath wrote:I always loved Traits and Drawbacks; these look pretty clutch already.

I'd also love to see the Psychic Powers section of your Chapter Creator finished, Marik. Lol.

Hehe, its coming, I've finally decided what I want to do with them so its just a matter of hunkering down and finishing it.