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This could very well be in the wrong forum, apologies in advance if that's the case.
Just a quick question my friend asked me while playing his first game of warhammer.
He comes from a D&D background, and he asked me what the real time length of a warhammer turn is supposed to be.

Now as far as I can tell, there's no rule in the book on this, and I realize it's irrelevant, but I was wondering what dakka's interpretation of this was.
I was thinking a turn might be roughly 1 real-time minute, but then that makes an entire battle span roughly 5 minutes?

Totally irrelevant. Whatever number you come up with will be wrong as the time will be too long for half the actions and too short for other actions.

Figured as much, there's just not really any way you can reconcile any sort of time span with the actions that actually happen.

There is no set scale for time, just like there's none for distance. The game wouldn't work if you tried to assign specfic values because then most of infantry weapons should be able to hit across, if not off the board, and anything involving tank guns would need a parking lot sized table. Likewise, time would be the same. It takes the same amount of time to fire a quick burst from a storm bolter as it does to charge into some ruins, get into a hand to hand fight, then run down and scatter the remnants of the enemy?

Yeah, and while the terminators charge the orks and scatter them, and the devastators in the backfield just stand around and wait for their next shooting phase.....

You just have to live with these absractions.....

MrMerlin wrote:Yeah, and while the terminators charge the orks and scatter them, and the devastators in the backfield just stand around and wait for their next shooting phase.....

You just have to live with these absractions.....

The devestators are reloading.
IIRC a turn is about 10 seconds? An entire game of 40k only takes about a minute.

Joey wrote:
IIRC a turn is about 10 seconds? An entire game of 40k only takes about a minute.

You're remembering incorrectly, as it's never been stated.

Lordhat wrote:

Joey wrote:
IIRC a turn is about 10 seconds? An entire game of 40k only takes about a minute.

You're remembering incorrectly, as it's never been stated.

Maybe it has, but you have never seen it?

Anyway, it makes sense..... I really dont think a 1500pts fight could take more than 90 seconds.

Its hard to say because although 1 side takes a turn and then the other its not like in real war one side starts moving shootign and assaulting and the other side waits until they get the OK to take there turn ha

Lordhat wrote:

Joey wrote:
IIRC a turn is about 10 seconds? An entire game of 40k only takes about a minute.

You're remembering incorrectly, as it's never been stated.

It has actually in the 5th edition rules, a turn is 7 seconds in real life.

As above. 5 to 7 seconds a turn is a good rule of thumb, as it gives any given unit in a game the time to do a quick action sequence (e.g. Tac Squad one presses forward in their Rhino through the rubble [Turn 1], jump from their Rhino firing a short burst at the approaching enemy [Turn 2], sprint across an open field and duck into cover [Turn 3], clash with the enemy in HtH, exchaning vicious blows but ultimately emerging victorious [Turn 4], make a final dash and vox-call in to the captain that the southern parameter (objective) has been secured [Turn 5]).

Now, of course, it has some room for "cinematic timing", so a given Sergeant may hold an inspiring speech midway through it or a character-duel might last a bit longer. Similarly, as many units move simultaniously, it's depiction in a book or movie-action scene would likely be longer, as they would be shown in order/interspresed, rather than simultaniously.

I think 5-7 seconds is really really short.....have you ever tired dong something in 5-7 seconds. Hell just aiming a gun properly takes that long....let alone charging and going into a melee.

I think a very good way to think of it...is the beginning of a DOW. Those intros(especially the first one) has movement, shooting and assult...I think that is a good indicator of a turn.

Lordhat wrote:

Joey wrote:
IIRC a turn is about 10 seconds? An entire game of 40k only takes about a minute.

You're remembering incorrectly, as it's never been stated.

You can extrapolate pretty easily. Take an imperial guardsmen, assume he's 5 foot 10. Then take how far he can move in a turn (12") and divide it by his height, then you have time covered by a relatively fit human male in a given period. I worked it out at about 10 seconds.

Given that a land raider is about 6.5 inches long, and it traverses a 12 inch space at 48KPH it gets there in about 1.32 seconds. so each movement phase is less than 2 seconds for Land Raiders.

It can not be extrapolated pretty easily, since everything has a different calculation for how long it takes to get where it is going.

Take a look at the Rhino, they move at 55KPH yet they move the same speed as the land raider, and every other non-walker/Non-fast vehicle out there.

Hazard30 wrote:

I think a very good way to think of it...is the beginning of a DOW. Those intros(especially the first one) has movement, shooting and assult...I think that is a good indicator of a turn.

I rather think it is a good indicator of an entire 40K game.

Starts with Heavy-Weapon Guy from the Tac Marines shooting and their Serg. working the comm (no movement or assault that turn, as they are using a Heavy Weapon) [Space Marine Turn 1].

After that, Ork vanguard is running to cover the distance (movement and assault = run, as they are out of range, no WAAGH as it's first turn). [Ork Turn 1]

Space Marines Rapid Fire into the Orks from behind their cover (again, no assault due to rapid fire) and wipe them out with help of a Dread. [Space Marine Turn 2]

No Orks left, but some are deployed from reserves and appear further towards the back [Ork Turn 2]

Space Marines now give up their position and run forward to get to the Ork-side of the field [Space Marine Turn 3]

Orks shoot and charge towards the Space Marines, HtH ensues in the middle of the field [Ork Turn 3]

Prolonged melee throughout the Space Marine Turn, including the destruction of the Dread. Marines eventually win the HtH [Space Marine Turn 4]

Backfield Orks again open fire on the Marines who have gone to ground (Serg seems pinned there for a moment). [Ork Turn 4]

Space Marine player tries to get to that objective with the surviving Serg of his Tac Marines and foregoes his shooting in order to run the distance [Space Marines 5]

Orks concentrate all their fire on the Marine Serg as he's on the game-decisive objective. But the Marine makes his saves, FNP, whatever, long enough to last that turn. Space Marine Victory after 5 turns [Ork Turn 5]


Now, the thing is just under 2 minutes, but you see alot of parallel action. What the Orks are doing, what the Marines are doing, etc.. . Played in "real-time", it would probably be half that time or less.

And it takes 30 minutes for a starship to bring itself about to line up its lance batteries and fire a single salvo against a target.

The time is entirely abstract, as a vehicle that moves only twice its length in seven seconds is going very, very slowly. Even at moving four times its length (24"), it's still not rolling above like 30mph.

To me, there's two ways to calculate this:

1) Look at what can be done in a single turn by an average model. The most that that model can do is to move forward a few feet, shoot a gun once or twice, and throw a single punch. So, a turn is obviously very, very short, on the order of seconds. An entire battle takes place in less than a minute.

2) Look at game mechanics and try to explain them logically. Models killed by the first player's in turn 1 cannot do anything during the second player's turn 1. During a turn, a unit that shoots it's rocket launcher and blows up a transport doesn't have time to fire their assault rifles at the occupants, but an entirely different unit has plenty of time to fire at the occupants. Also during a turn, depending on the order that units fire, cover saves can change, or units need to move in specific orders to free up the space for other units to move. All of this means that units need to actually act sequentially and not simultaneously. So, battles take place in real time, and there's some weird honor code in place where everyone stands around not doing anything until it is their turn to act.

Psienesis wrote:The time is entirely abstract, as a vehicle that moves only twice its length in seven seconds is going very, very slowly. Even at moving four times its length (24"), it's still not rolling above like 30mph.

The problem with your statement is that you're assuming that vehicles charge into combat shooting at things at their top speeds. It even states in the book that it's acknowleged that the vehicles are capable of traveling much faster, but they don't because they're either being slowed down by the rough, unpaved terrain, or they're proceeding at combat speeds, which are a fraction of top speed.

Zweischneid wrote:

Hazard30 wrote:

I think a very good way to think of it...is the beginning of a DOW. Those intros(especially the first one) has movement, shooting and assult...I think that is a good indicator of a turn.

I rather think it is a good indicator of an entire 40K game.

Starts with Heavy-Weapon Guy from the Tac Marines shooting and their Serg. working the comm (no movement or assault that turn, as they are using a Heavy Weapon) [Space Marine Turn 1].

After that, Ork vanguard is running to cover the distance (movement and assault = run, as they are out of range, no WAAGH as it's first turn). [Ork Turn 1]

Space Marines Rapid Fire into the Orks from behind their cover (again, no assault due to rapid fire) and wipe them out with help of a Dread. [Space Marine Turn 2]

No Orks left, but some are deployed from reserves and appear further towards the back [Ork Turn 2]

Space Marines now give up their position and run forward to get to the Ork-side of the field [Space Marine Turn 3]

Orks shoot and charge towards the Space Marines, HtH ensues in the middle of the field [Ork Turn 3]

Prolonged melee throughout the Space Marine Turn, including the destruction of the Dread. Marines eventually win the HtH [Space Marine Turn 4]

Backfield Orks again open fire on the Marines who have gone to ground (Serg seems pinned there for a moment). [Ork Turn 4]

Space Marine player tries to get to that objective with the surviving Serg of his Tac Marines and foregoes his shooting in order to run the distance [Space Marines 5]

Orks concentrate all their fire on the Marine Serg as he's on the game-decisive objective. But the Marine makes his saves, FNP, whatever, long enough to last that turn. Space Marine Victory after 5 turns [Ork Turn 5]


Now, the thing is just under 2 minutes, but you see alot of parallel action. What the Orks are doing, what the Marines are doing, etc.. . Played in "real-time", it would probably be half that time or less.

The assault alone is 30 seconds....and in game my orks get in at least 2 of them per game.

And we gotta stop thinking "game mechanics" and thinking more realistic human responses. Movement is relatively fast, but your on a battlefield, everything is bombed the hell out and people are shooting you, also your moving in formation covering angles, looking for enemies ect. ect.....Shooting is quick but 10-15 seconds quick not 7(you gotta make those shots count).
The assault phase is the long one.....you are going in a full on melee with someone else....have you ever been in a seen sword fight(and I am not talking movies here) they can last a pretty freaken long time.

All this is not including orders, communications, reloading, consolidation, sweeping advances and other things.

If no assault is involved I can easily see the game lasting 7-10 seconds a turn. But with assult....each game turn would be at least 2 mintures

Hazard30 wrote:
The assault alone is 30 seconds....and in game my orks get in at least 2 of them per game.

And we gotta stop thinking "game mechanics" and thinking more realistic human responses. Movement is relatively fast, but your on a battlefield, everything is bombed the hell out and people are shooting you, also your moving in formation covering angles, looking for enemies ect. ect.....Shooting is quick but 10-15 seconds quick not 7(you gotta make those shots count).
The assault phase is the long one.....you are going in a full on melee with someone else....have you ever been in a seen sword fight(and I am not talking movies here) they can last a pretty freaken long time.

All this is not including orders, communications, reloading, consolidation, sweeping advances and other things.

If no assault is involved I can easily see the game lasting 7-10 seconds a turn. But with assult....each game turn would be at least 2 mintures

If you tink "realistic human responses"; assault is arguably faster than shooting. 1, 2 seconds max for a soldier with close combat training to deliver a strike, arguably less for gene-engineered super-soldiers with centuries of battle-field experience. Same for Eldar. We're moving more into the realm of less than 1 second actually.

spectreoneone wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The time is entirely abstract, as a vehicle that moves only twice its length in seven seconds is going very, very slowly. Even at moving four times its length (24"), it's still not rolling above like 30mph.

The problem with your statement is that you're assuming that vehicles charge into combat shooting at things at their top speeds. It even states in the book that it's acknowleged that the vehicles are capable of traveling much faster, but they don't because they're either being slowed down by the rough, unpaved terrain, or they're proceeding at combat speeds, which are a fraction of top speed.

Things on track generally don't give a crap about rough ground. That's the point of track. Even still, if it's only moving 4 times its length, it's just *crawling* along, being a fat, slow, convenient target for anything that wants to shoot at it. And "combat speed", while not a flat-out, pedal-to-the-metal speed, is still higher than 20mph.

Alright...10-15 seconds is a bit long.

but 1-2 is a little short to sight target, raise rifle, shoot, confirm kill, sight next target, shoot, ect ect....when half the time the opponent is in cover. I am assuming that the rifles shoot twice at two different targets(although they are automatic). Also keep in mind we arn't just talking about SM here, we are also talking a generalization. So we must include moves like "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" as well as Bomb Squigs, Rocket Launchers, as well as Demo charges and artillery shell air time(although I may be stretching a bit there)

I will accept the original value of 7 seconds.

DeathReaper wrote:Given that a land raider is about 6.5 inches long, and it traverses a 12 inch space at 48KPH it gets there in about 1.32 seconds. so each movement phase is less than 2 seconds for Land Raiders.

It can not be extrapolated pretty easily, since everything has a different calculation for how long it takes to get where it is going.

Take a look at the Rhino, they move at 55KPH yet they move the same speed as the land raider, and every other non-walker/Non-fast vehicle out there.

A Land Raider can't go from 0 to 48 KPH. It revs its engine from nothing.
Given that, being able to travel twice its own length in 7 seconds isn't that bad.

What does that have to do with anything? Unless you're now pretending that a land raider that spends four turns moving directly across the board before unloading its terminators starts and stops every turn, instead of moving continuously.

spectreoneone wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The time is entirely abstract, as a vehicle that moves only twice its length in seven seconds is going very, very slowly. Even at moving four times its length (24"), it's still not rolling above like 30mph.

The problem with your statement is that you're assuming that vehicles charge into combat shooting at things at their top speeds. It even states in the book that it's acknowleged that the vehicles are capable of traveling much faster, but they don't because they're either being slowed down by the rough, unpaved terrain, or they're proceeding at combat speeds, which are a fraction of top speed.

Ouch. You might want to read what he is quoting, because no such assumption is made. You're the one doing the all the assuming. The point that you missed is that a vehicle going twice it's length in ten seconds isn't 'proceeding at combat speed' it's barely crawling along. Trying to fix a scale for time in distance, as Joey showed, is an exercise in futility. He's invented a distance moved, but how does that reconcile with how fantastically short ranged the shooting distances are?