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Basically, the title says it all.

It's stemmed From this thread here

Personally it did Explain the slow insidous nature of chaos as each person slowly attempted to perfect themselves whilst being blind to the damge they were causing/ the world around them.

The deamonic possesion bit however. a few words here and there and then BAM a deamon had ben here all the time trollolol.

Discuss.


Nom

I just read Fulgrim again, but I didn't enjoy it as much the second time. Personally, I thought the Daemon wasn't as much of a sticking point for me. I thought that the ideal of the EC's was that they were all about perfection, so even I tiny break in that image for any of them was enough to allow chaos in. I reckon chaos is all or nothing really, and once even the tiniest amout is in you your done. I thought that the contrast between Tarvitz and Lucius highlighted that for me more than the story of Fulgrim himself.

That being said, once he started painting his eyes that was the turning point for me...no good comes from dudes using eye shadow!

The posession was pretty weird.

Primarch: "Oh noe, I killed my friend, now I'm sad"
Demon: "Want me to make it better?"
Primarch: "Please."

BAM

Demon: "I now posess your body, lol."
Primarch: "Noooooooo"

And I really don't feel like I am over the top there .

As far as the actual fall to chaos:

I think they did a very good job at showcasing one of the ways somebody can fall. For the most part it seems like most of the people are driven to Chaos by negative emotions.

"The Emperor abandoned me." "I want more power." "I would make a better ruler." Chaos pretty much comes right out and lays on the temptation pretty thick. "Help us, and you will rule the universe."

But Chaos is not always so straight forward, and I think Fulgrim showed that pretty well. The EC did not fall because they tasted power or revenge. They experienced a momentary moment of pure joy and perfection in the temple, and all they wanted after that was to recreate that feeling. It is like people that are so in love with a feeling of happiness that they will do everything just to get that feeling back. People who will destroy their lives and relationships only to have that feeling of first love or that sense of being in a relationship. They don't want to hurt other people, they just want to make themselves feel better. "I want to kill everything, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE" is a pretty easy way to spot a fall to chaos. But "no matter what I do, I just cannot get the right shade of red...", that usually doesn't make you think "I am a heretic" (all you people complaining about the new GW paints better be careful). It was not a lust for raw power that corrupted the EC, but a slow decay into crazytown because they couldn't be perfect anymore and could not get content.

Their fall was more of a psychological case, and maybe that is what made the book different from the other chapters.

Hmm, that's actually a much better explanation than what I got from the book!

d-usa pretty much nailed it. For them it was a slow fail that was not out of malice, but that of a junky seeking his fix.

Now just wait till you read the Primarch's book that comes out in may. I won't put any spoilers here. But it completely changes Fulgrim's character is the story is to believed at face value.

d-usa wrote: But "no matter what I do, I just cannot get the right shade of red...", that usually doesn't make you think "I am a heretic" (all you people complaining about the new GW paints better be careful).

See, that's what I loved about Fulgrim. It was that slow, slightly noticeable, almost-Lovecraftian fall to madness that gets the EC in the end.

'Hm... that shade of red is close, but not quite there. And I've already tried these extremely-rare-and-hard-to-find-berries-that-the-entire-search-party-died-to-get berries and... Oh, shoot. I've gone and pricked myse- hang on. That's it! That's what I've needed! But I need more... Ah! Good sir, if you don't mind, would you take a look at my art? Yes, yes, get as close as you need to, I'll just stand right beside you. And don't mind the knife, it's for brush cleaning.'

*Schllllick*

And then the next thing you know you're ritually sacrificing people to the Dark Gods.

d-usa wrote:
But Chaos is not always so straight forward, and I think Fulgrim showed that pretty well. The EC did not fall because they tasted power or revenge. They experienced a momentary moment of pure joy and perfection in the temple, and all they wanted after that was to recreate that feeling. It is like people that are so in love with a feeling of happiness that they will do everything just to get that feeling back. People who will destroy their lives and relationships only to have that feeling of first love or that sense of being in a relationship. They don't want to hurt other people, they just want to make themselves feel better. "I want to kill everything, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE" is a pretty easy way to spot a fall to chaos. But "no matter what I do, I just cannot get the right shade of red...", that usually doesn't make you think "I am a heretic" (all you people complaining about the new GW paints better be careful). It was not a lust for raw power that corrupted the EC, but a slow decay into crazytown because they couldn't be perfect anymore and could not get content.

Their fall was more of a psychological case, and maybe that is what made the book different from the other chapters.

This is why I chose EC for my Chaos army (and the metal damonettes). There is more to them than just "lust" marines. Their fall was orchestrated by simple, almost inconsiquencial things, but Slannesh knows what he/she/it is doing. Driving that motivation just a little farther each time towards the extreme. Pushing the limits of what it takes to achieve your goals just ahead of you and before long that "moral" line you promised yourself you would never cross is so far in your wake you don't even register that it ever existed in the first place.

Its actually quite tragic.

Well, I thought the book was very by-the-numbers. A fall to chaos should be a personal thing. A choice that each of us could be faced with, that we can empathise with, almost sympathise with. At no point could I get inside the heads of any of the characters, to understand the dirving influences behind their fall.

It's easy to say A is happening, because of B, but thats not a story. It doesn't really tell me anything about the people involved, and their personal challenges and frustrations. And I just don't feel the book managed to get past that simple "A because of B" storytelling.

To be fair, none of the HH books I've read so far have either. Horus' fall, that should have been such a tragic experience, was really bland.

I guess I feel that an individuals fall to chaos shouldn't be about chaos corrupting them against their will, but about chaos offering an outlet for their already insidious desires. Fanning the flames of lust, greed, jealousy or what-have-you, and I didn't get that feeling at all through the books.

nomsheep wrote:Basically, the title says it all.

It's stemmed From this thread here

Personally it did Explain the slow insidous nature of chaos as each person slowly attempted to perfect themselves whilst being blind to the damge they were causing/ the world around them.

The deamonic possesion bit however. a few words here and there and then BAM a deamon had ben here all the time trollolol.

Discuss.


Nom

It was explained, but not very convincingly in my opinion. Like with Horus, all the heinousness of betrayal is put on some goofy demon weapon. It's the old "demon weapon made me betray the emperor" bit. Yawn. Real evil is purposeful. When Lorgar gets pissed because he cant worship the emperor anymore, and starts worshipping chaos instead - that's evil you can believe in. I was cheering for Lorgar, because he knew exactly what he was doing and just didnt give a damn. But anyway, Fulgrim wasnt one of the better books imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:Well, I thought the book was very by-the-numbers. A fall to chaos should be a personal thing. A choice that each of us could be faced with, that we can empathise with, almost sympathise with. At no point could I get inside the heads of any of the characters, to understand the dirving influences behind their fall.

I agree with this. It was utterly formulaic and predictable. Usually these books go something like this:
1st 4 chapters: meet the hero as he slays thousands of aliens we've never heard of. Primarch makes a cameo to show us how awesome he is. Oh yeah and he has a friend who will betray him.
2nd 4 chapters: Primarch starts flirting with chaos. Hero has no idea what's going on.
3rd 4 chapters: Primarch betrays the emperor and starts killing guys, hero barely escapes with his life. Oh the horror! Who ever could have seen this coming? We've got to go tell the emperor!

Throw in a bunch of war porn. Oh and somewhere along the way we'll meet some human characters we don't care about. Most if not all of them will be dead before the book is over.


I usually only read these books now if a bunch of people tell me its awesome. Like a thousand sons. Which was.