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500 points is a tiny game. 1000 is a small game. 2000 is a large(r) game. I can see games in increments of 500s and even 250s. My question, what is the logic (if there is any) behind this number 1850. Its 100 more than 1750, and 150 less than 2000. It just seems like an odd place to break the pattern. I've seen an escalation league that go 1000 - 1250 - 1500 - 1850, and tons of posts on this forum for lists of 1850 points. My only assumption is that it has something to do with tournaments (which also would explain why I am in the dark). And a part 2(ish) to the question: Is there wisdom in making a 1850 point list over a 2000 point one? Anywho, thanks for looking this over.

Round here at least the answer to your question is one word: Adepticon

Most tournaments follow the 1850/1750 templates as well.

1750 is our normal tournament for weekends around here. 1850 is just weird... halfway from 1500 to 2000... isn't 1850.

It is the standard size in Europe IIRC.

I don't know who came up with it but having played 10+ tournaments that size I can see why its popular.


It gives enough room for creativity while not being too big. I think its a nice size for a smallish tournament.

The games don't take too long, but are still large enough that you can fit in a good army list with all the basics plus a healthy smattering of the fun stuff.

It makes sense, actually, mostly from the idea of scaling. When you're at low points, it's much easier to fit in something significant with 250 points. At higher points, it becomes much more difficult. At 750 points, adding a single land raider to a list that has no other armor is sort of a big deal. At 1500 points, adding a single land raider to a list that has no other armor is just providing your opponent with a target. In order to add something new at higher points levels, you have to spend a lot more points on it, because you need to be able to bring multiple copies of it.

Why slow down after 1850, rather than having an even larger gap? Because once you pass 1500 points, you can start having serious problems with force org restrictions. It's hard enough to make an efficient army at 1850, but as you go up, you're now running into serious problems on where to spend your points now that your HS slots are completely filled along with your elites or FA, etc. As such, it slows down.

Really, you shouldn't look at it in 250 point increments, so much as you should look at the significant ones. 500 point games are small games that revolve around troops. Then you jump up to 1000 point games where you have small games that are the lowest level you can play with meaningful support units. Then you hit 1500, where armies are the best balanced. Then you hit 1850.

The real question here isn't why 1850 instead of 1750, but why 1850 instead of 2000. The reason for that is because there are just some armies that can't bloat that well up to 2000 for various reasons (lack of slots, too little table space for a horde, etc.), and so they scaled it back a little bit.

I agree with you Ailaros, I am just curious as to what armies and builds struggle with FOC at 1850/2000?

Older ones, generally.

For example, look at a Tau army. Likely, after the most minimum investment reasonable in troops and HQ, they are going to fill up their HS slots with railguns and fill up their elites slots with crisis suits. The problem, of course, is that, assuming you refuse to throw points into bloat, you can really only spend so many points in the elites and HS slots. Even at 1850 points, most tau armies start begrudgingly including things like pathfinders because they just can't spend more points on things that they really want, like more railguns, because they just don't have the slots for it.

The same is also sort of true for eldar armies (though not as much, because their individual models are more expensive), and sisters of battle (that's slightly ameliorated by the fact that they actually have some decent troops sort of). Other armies flirt with this like SM (once you fill up elites and HS, things start going downhill), and CSM (which is only saved by being able to put a practically infinite number of points into high-quality troops choices, of which you get 6).

Basically, the older a codex gets, the fewer competitive options they have in the codex, and the more that things like the number of FO slots you have available for your good options gets in the way.

Plus, newer codices are building around this problem. For example, if guard ever gets to the point where its only worthwhile choices are in troops and HS, it won't be so bad because the guard has the option of taking squadrons of most things in the HS section. A SoB player is capped at 3 missile-piano-trucks, while a guard player has that cap upped to 3 squads of 3.

Oh okay I understand now thanks for the clarification.

I find 1850 to be to large.

The true ability of a good list builder is at lower points.

You can't auto take the good stuff so you have to blance the list more. At 1850 you can begin to spam stuff to win matches.

1200-1500 involves a lot of I need A,B, and C but can only afford A.

Makes games a huge surprise.

At 1850 you can expect to face very similar lists.

Grey Templar wrote:It is the standard size in Europe IIRC.

I don't know who came up with it but having played 10+ tournaments that size I can see why its popular.


It gives enough room for creativity while not being too big. I think its a nice size for a smallish tournament.

Yeah most tournaments are around that mark, but will they be next year? DUN DUN DUN

I suppose we will need to see what 6th edition does.

I forsee a radical change to the FoC similer to what happened with Fantesy.


I think the point value will determine how many slots you have.


So 1000 and below might be limited to 1 HQ, infinite troops with a minimum of 25% of your total points being in troops units, and choice of 3 units from Elite, Fast Attack, or Heavy Support slots.

1000-1500 might add 2 additional Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support options.

1500-2000. You may take an additional HQ and 2 additional Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support options.

2500+ No limits aside from 1 HQ minimum and 25% of your points MUST be in troops.


So a 1500 point list would have to have 1 HQ and at least 375 points of troops. It could also have 5 total choices from the Elite, Fast attack, or Hevy support sections. So you could have 5 Elites, 5 Fast Attack, 5 Heavy support, or any combination of the 3. So an IG player could have 5 lemun russ squadrons, but it would mean he couldn't have any Elites or Fast Attack choices.


Something like this would increase flexability. Spam would increase but I think all armies woukld benifit greatly.

Armies with expensive troops wouldn't be as cramped as before. So a Vanilla marine army could have a 750 point game with only a single fully equipped Tactical squad meeting the minimum point requirement instead of 2 tac squads with suboptimal equipment.

IG and Orks would not be limited in the number of troops choices they could run.

It would allow people to run tons of stuff they like, but it would hurt them in other areas. So an IG player wants to run tons of LRBTs, but he can only do so by losing the ability to take Elites and Fast Attack. Space Marines want alot of Sternguard, they can focus on tons of elites but they may be limited in their fast attack support.

It also prevents people from plinking down 2 min sized troop units in a 3k game and calling it good.

If they were to go the way of Fantasy I could see them doing max 50% points on HQ/Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Support but also limiting spam as in only 3 squads of whatever except Troops under 2000 or 3000 points.