HFH shenanigans? Get out that Necron book

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**Brothererekose**

I'm looking my necron codex over to see if this is legal and workable. I C&P'd this from another guy's army thread. It looks intriguing and annoying and possibly illegal. So, I've brought it here for some scrutiny.

Whaddya think? Legal?

... a second Deathmark unit of 5 + DespairTek (aka. D&D squad) and a C'tan Shard with Grand Illusion.

Why?
Well, Hunters From Hyperspace (HFH) will only work on the one enemy unit that has been marked, right?
With only one D&D squad, you only get to use that 2+ wound AP1 flamer trick against one target. Once the marked target has been removed, the D&D squad just goes back to being a regular Deathmark unit with a Cryptek in it (not bad, per se, just not amazing anymore).
A second D&D squad means a second HFH marked enemy unit (remember: every Deathmark unit can benefit from any other Deathmark unit's HFH marker). That way, not only can you easily (hopefully) take out two units, but if something happens to one of your D&D squads, you've still got the other to fall back on.

Now for the cheese supreme: Grand Illusion.
This C'tan power lets you essentially "redeploy" some of you units after normal deployment. One of the things this lets you do is stick units that have been deployed on the field back into reserve.
The combo?
1- Deploy 2 D&D squads like normal (place HFH markers on 2 enemy units when deploying).
2- Activate Grand Illusion power, place D&D squad(s) into reserve.
3- have D&D squads come back on to field from reserves later in game (as soon as they re-enter play, their HFH rule activates... allowing you to place MORE HFH markers!).

Using this exploit, you can mark 3-4 enemy units... do you think many armies can hold up against losing 3 or 4 of their best units to a S8 AP1 flamer that wounds on a 2+?

(the only thing to keep in mind is, you'll probably need to have the Harbingers of Despair carry Veils of Darkness, just so they'll be able to get around to all the different marked enemy units)

Can a 'Cron player do this?

**CthuluIsSpy**

What did it say on the other guy's thread? I believe there were answers posted there already.

And theoretically...yes. It hasn't been FAQ'd yet, and the entry doesn't specify any limit to the amount of markers.
I do think that this is a bit of a loophole though.

**TheCrazyCryptek**

While this made me laugh at the sheer cheese of it, I would never do it just out of fairness. This is just one of those things where it may be legal, but its clearly not how GW intended the HFH to work, they just didn't catch it in play testing.

**Brothererekose**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What did it say on the other guy's thread? I believe there were answers posted there already.

And theoretically...yes. It hasn't been FAQ'd yet, and the entry doesn't specify any limit to the amount of markers.
I do think that this is a bit of a loophole though.

One guy asked, and as of a few minutes ago, no one had answered.

I've gotta go to the table and actually work it through ... if I can peel my butt off the couch.

**CthuluIsSpy**

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:While this made me laugh at the sheer cheese of it, I would never do it just out of fairness. This is just one of those things where it may be legal, but its clearly not how GW intended the HFH to work, they just didn't catch it in play testing.

This.
I think it hadn't occurred to GW that people would actually try this.

**Ascalam**

Which is why they need to throw their new rules into a room of powergamers and rules lawyers BEFORE releasing it to see what loopholes they can come up with

**copper.talos**

It may look good on paper but if you take into account the cost of the ctan, the unreliable reserve roll and the mechanised meta, you'll see it's not worth it at all. Plus you'd have invested too much on 2 suicide units...

**CthuluIsSpy**

copper.talos wrote:It may look good on paper but if you take into account the cost of the ctan, the unreliable reserve roll and the mechanised meta, you'll see it's not worth it at all. Plus you'd have invested too much on 2 suicide units...

You don't need the C'tan.
I think it works just as well with veilteks, as they use the DS rules.

**copper.talos**

Then you get 2 markers. That's not cheesy at all.

**CthuluIsSpy**

copper.talos wrote:Then you get 2 markers. That's not cheesy at all.

You can use the veil each turn. Meaning a potential max of 6 markers. (1 at start, 1 in turn 1, 1 in turn 2, 1 in turn 3, 1 in turn 4, 1 in turn 5. 1+1+1+1+1+1 = 6). And that's not including random turn length. Take 2 courts and you can have double the number of potential markers.

**copper.talos**

There is no ruling on this. I see VoD as movement with DS rules and not deployment. Some think the opposite. Until a faq comes no one can be 100% sure what is right.

**angelshade00**

I would also think VoD as movement rather than deployment, but It's just my opinion. If it does work that way, I admit that would be somewhat overpowered, even considering the points investment.

**huge_eldar**

I've personally always played the DS movement abilities as straight up movement. Not re-deployment. If a unit could choose to go back into reserve, or deepstrike that may be a little more of a compelling argument. But, using the cTan ability to get 4 marks seems to be a legitimate loop-hole haha. This is a large points expenditure and vs some armies is fairly useless, any mech'd army, but can be deadly.

**katfude**

This has been argued before and the general consensus is that the c'tan trick works, but the veil does not.

C'tan specifically has the word deploy in the language of Grand Illusion, whereas nowhere in the actual VoD rule/BGB does it specifically state anything about deployment and deep strike being the same thing in all instances.

I run a VoD/deathmark list and would never put another mark down when moving the unit, as there is no language to support it and it's super cheesy dumb.

If you want to invest all those points in a big old "shoot me please lol" C'tan to get the extra marks, you've paid the points for the trick and are taking a gamble both with possibly deploying first (nothing on the table to mark, what a waste!) and reserve rolls (not to mention you may only get to put 1 of those deathmark units back into reserve!).

**IHateNids**

You do realise that HFH only works on IC/SCs don't you?

This cheesball (a hilarious, legit cheesball I admit) is useless unless you are fighting SWs

**TheAvengingKnee**

IHateNids wrote:You do realise that HFH only works on IC/SCs don't you?

How do you figure as the rule says "choose any non-veihicle unit in play(even a unit in a transport) to be their prey"

The FAQ clarifies that:
Q: If a unit of Deathmarks chooses an Independent
Character as the target of Hunters from Hyperspace, will
they Wound any unit he subsequently joins on a 2+?
(p36)
A: Yes.

There is never a requirement to target an IC/SC

**IHateNids**

Ok, my mistake.
I misunderstood the FAQ