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Can a Monstrous Creature assault a unit on the second floor of a unit where it cannot be physically placed.

Applicable rules:
PG 83 Under "Moving Within Ruins"
"Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin -- and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

PG 85 Under "Ruins and Assaults" Paragraph 2
"In some cases ... space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move assaulting models into base-to-base contact with the unit they wish to assault. When this happens it is perfectly acceptable to place models as close to their foe as is safely possible, including the level below or above..."

The situation:
My opponent had a dreadknight and wanted to assault some Necron Warriors on the second floor of a ruin. Due to the construction of the ruin and the sheer size of the dreadknight he could not be physically placed on the second or third floor of the ruin or even on the ground floor really. I argued that due to the rules on page 83 he could not assault the warriors as his model could never be placed on the second floor even if it was completely unoccupied. His argument was that due to pg 85 he could place the dreadknight as close as possible a floor below and count as being in base-to base.

My interpretation of the rules on page 85 is such that if the model could fit on the second floor but is only being prevented by its occupation with other models then it could still assault. But it still has to be able to fit.

The TO ruled that he could just move into base contact with the ruin and I would have to counter charge down as long as the difficult terrain roll would have allowed enough vertical movement to reach virtual base-to-base.

Just curious if this was the right ruling or how you guys play it within your own gaming groups.

The general rule is that MCs may move onto a ruin level if they could fit there. The more specific assault rules say that they are allowed to count as assaulting even if models on upper levels prevent them from moving there.

Put those together and the rules (fairly clearly IMHO) say that Monstrous Creatures are allowed to assault into an upper level of a ruin if they would be able to be placed on that level were there not already models on that level preventing the MC from being placed there.


So I agree with your interpretation personally, but I do think its ambiguous enough that I don't think the judge was crazy for making that ruling. Because it can be read that the assault rules grant an exception to the normal restriction for MCs being unable to move up a level. The reason this is the case is because 'space could be very limited' is very general and can be interpreted as applying to the MC rule (because they are unable to move up a level when there isn't enough space for them to fit, regardless of whether there are models there or not).

In the scheme of things the ruling sucked as I had planned for the warriors to be out of danger by placing them where I did. Can't be mad at a TO ruling though they are not infallible and he had to make a quick ruling to keep the game going.

Also note that the defenders react move is not slowed by difficult terrain so they move up to 6"

I also agree that if the MC could have fit in the upper level of the ruins he could assault you, since he couldn't even if it was empty he shouldn't have been able to.

What if the MC is tall enough to reach the second level without moving there?

Kevlar wrote:What if the MC is tall enough to reach the second level without moving there?

His base still needs to make contact, as normal for any model assaulting.

And it's because of situations like this that I refuse to take part in any more tournaments.

In a more friendly game experience opponents would most likely accept that the MC, who is probably 20-30ft tall, would just punch straight through the wall to reach his victims - not be concerned with balancing on a poorly scaled platform. With terrain pieces being so diverse in their dimensions it would be nigh-on impossible to have a rule set in stone. Therefore this is just one of the many rules in 40k where you just have to use simple common sense.

Stop thinking so much about bases-to-base and inches and let your imagination sort the ambiguous rules for once.

JaxnFury wrote:And it's because of situations like this that I refuse to take part in any more tournaments.

In a more friendly game experience opponents would most likely accept that the MC, who is probably 20-30ft tall, would just punch straight through the wall to reach his victims - not be concerned with balancing on a poorly scaled platform. With terrain pieces being so diverse in their dimensions it would be nigh-on impossible to have a rule set in stone. Therefore this is just one of the many rules in 40k where you just have to use simple common sense.

Stop thinking so much about bases-to-base and inches and let your imagination sort the ambiguous rules for once.

And here I was thinking that we should probably play by the rules of the game.
I like this imagination method better though, I can't even see a possible way that ignoring restrictions like base to base and trivial things like inches could affect anything.

Seriously though the game has rules and they should be followed especially in tournaments. If you want to house rule things with your friends that is fine, but don't expect other people to feel the same.

House rules are fine, I have 3 roommates who play 40k and we do have some house rules, they can be fine for playing with people you know but it's better to know the actual rule as well when you play with people who arent people you regularily play with.

JaxnFury wrote:And it's because of situations like this that I refuse to take part in any more tournaments.

In a more friendly game experience opponents would most likely accept that the MC, who is probably 20-30ft tall, would just punch straight through the wall to reach his victims - not be concerned with balancing on a poorly scaled platform. With terrain pieces being so diverse in their dimensions it would be nigh-on impossible to have a rule set in stone. Therefore this is just one of the many rules in 40k where you just have to use simple common sense.

Stop thinking so much about bases-to-base and inches and let your imagination sort the ambiguous rules for once.

My gosh.... someone with creativity and common sense.... that plays 40k?!
This was a tourney, I avoid them for the reasons presented by the OP because I prefer to just have fun with my friends. To all their own.

Anywhooz: RAW does make it ambiguous that a MC has to be able to contact models with its base for game purposes. Sadly, if the 'real' interpretation stood true most of the time, then we would probably have Valkyries that are unassailable in CC and jazz like that.

TheMostSlyFox wrote:

Anywhooz: RAW does make it ambiguous that a MC has to be able to contact models with its base for game purposes. Sadly, if the 'real' interpretation stood true most of the time, then we would probably have Valkyries that are unassailable in CC and jazz like that.

Except that in the rules for assaulting skimmers you have the option of assaulting the Hull or its base.

I just started playing 'nids, and so I had been wondering about this myself. After reading the very limited rules for assaulting in ruins, and all of the other pertinent information for moving through levels in ruins, my interpretation is that you don't need to be in base contact, as long as you COULD make the assault move.

For instance, a Trygon is trying to assault some Necrons on the second level of a ruin. There is no way that a Trygon, or pretty much any MC that is not a C'tan, would have any hope in fitting on the floor of a ruin. So in the BRB, page. 85, it says:

...or the space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move assaulting models into base-to-base contact with the unit they wish to assault. When this happens, it is perfectly acceptable to place models as close to their foe as possible, including the level below or above, providing you put the assaulting models as close as possible to their opponents...

The same section also indicates you can use unit coherency rules to determine who can assault, as in who is within 2" of someone who is in 'base contact'.

So, the way I view the above scenario is this:

In order for the Trygon to be able to assault, he needs to make a difficult terrain test (on 3D6 for Move Through Cover), and the distance would need to be enough to make it to the base of the ruins, and go up the 3". So, you and your opponent determine how far you have to go in order to assault, and then make said difficult terrain check. If you get the required distance, anywhere from 3-6", you would move the trygon as close as possible to the necrons. They then need to do a defender's react, and really can be on either the ground floor with the Trygon, or on the second floor, in unit coherency with people in base contact on the first floor.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is open to a lot of interpretation, but it is absolutely ridiculous to think that hiding on the second floor of a ruin would completely negate the ability of a monstrous creature to attack you. There would be no reason for a shooty army to ever do anything besides sit on ruins, and laugh at MCs wandering around aimlessly below them, even if the model's head goes above the second level.

Oh, and I agree, no tournament play for me because of things like this. Me and my buddies know you have to be fairly open to interpretation when dealing with bizarre scenarios, but combine the obvious intent of the rules with common sense, and you are good to go.