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Hello, guys, I know I already asked about this, but that thread is buried already. Anyways, I'm running a 1000 point list that looks like this...

HQ:
Pedro Kantor

Elites:
9 Sternguard Vets, 4 Combi-weapons, Rhino.

Dreadnaught with TL-LC, ML.

Troops:

10 Tactical Marines, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Rhino.

10 Tactical Marines, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Rhino.

In the last thread, I got a lot of different suggestions, like adding two 5-6 man Sternguard Vets and putting them in Razorbacks, which I'm loath to do for fear of them dying too quickly, as Vanilla Marine MSU are wont to do. Thunderfire Cannons were also mentioned, as well as bikes and speeders.

It just occured to me to give Pedro and his Sternguard vets a Land Raider. Does that seem acceptable? It would leave me with about 250 points left, which is nothing to sneeze at.

ah much better then last time but i am not a fan of the tl-lc and the ml combo on dred >.< but over all get a land raider and you will be fine :3 (note use combi meltas PLEASE!!!! and for your nomal space marines metaguns and ml work to but over all this is goot for a light vehical list and an infantry spam)

Honestly, instead of Land Raider which really adds nothing to your list, you'd be better of spending 500pts of solid support.

For 500pts, you can get;

3x Autolas Predators (or Vindis, or any combination thereof)
and another TL-LC/ML Dread (have to find 5pts somewhere to squeeze it in)

With all that, you have a very solid amount of ranged firepower, and the Sternguard act as a rapid response unit to take down key threats to your gunline.

I also think your tacticals are better off with MLs for the added ranged AT punch, which would synergize a lot better with the anti-tank firepower I suggested.

what is the point of auto las ? just go either auto hb or las las

I hate heavy bolters, especially in tac units. Was that a fluffy choice?

Deuce11 wrote:I hate heavy bolters, especially in tac units. Was that a fluffy choice?

no that was to kill other infantry that are shooting/charging a point he is holding and its the cheapest anti infantry there and if you hate bolters thats your problum

I know a player that uses 9 - 10 man stern squads and they never do anything.

jbsnv wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I hate heavy bolters, especially in tac units. Was that a fluffy choice?

no that was to kill other infantry that are shooting/charging a point he is holding and its the cheapest anti infantry there and if you hate bolters thats your problum

Don't kid yourself, take the ML. It is free and far more useful in every respect than a heavy bolter.

LlamaAgility wrote:I know a player that uses 9 - 10 man stern squads and they never do anything.

The problem is they die like any other marine. I used to run them with gating libbi's. They would massacre a unit and then die or get tar-pitted the next turn. Granted, I was a terrible player at that time hahaha but i think it might have some value hahaha

Deuce11 wrote:

jbsnv wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I hate heavy bolters, especially in tac units. Was that a fluffy choice?

no that was to kill other infantry that are shooting/charging a point he is holding and its the cheapest anti infantry there and if you hate bolters thats your problum

Don't kid yourself, take the ML. It is free and far more useful in every respect than a heavy bolter.

LlamaAgility wrote:I know a player that uses 9 - 10 man stern squads and they never do anything.

The problem is they die like any other marine. I used to run them with gating libbi's. They would massacre a unit and then die or get tar-pitted the next turn. Granted, I was a terrible player at that time hahaha but i think it might have some value hahaha

My thing with Sternguard is, because of Pedro, they can score, and turn into a decent CC unit when he's nearby. That makes them much more cost effective, for me.

Going back what blacksails suggested, That sounds mighty fun, I'll look into it. The five points is in there somewhere. I may have it already, even, since That list i presented is by no means checked by my codex.

jbsnv wrote:what is the point of auto las ? just go either auto hb or las las

Sure, cause I want to pay another 45 points for the privilege of shooting a single, TL lascannon. In just about every forum and 40k blog ever, it is 99.9% agreed upon that the TL Lascannon is not even remotely worth the cost. The two viable predator loadouts for competitive play are the autolas and dakka pred (auto/hb).

The autolas is a very good tank killer, and the dakka pred does light transports and horde duty.

*Edit*

I thought about a sternguard list once, and here's what I came up with;

Pedro - /175pts

Sternguard (5) - 4x combi weapon, Plazorback/220pts
Sternguard (5) - 5x combi weapon, Plazorback/225pts
Dreadnought - 2x TL Autocannon/125pts

Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, ML, Combi-flamer, Rhino/215pts
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, ML, Combi-flamer, Rhino/215pts

Predator - Lascannon sponsons/120pts
Predator - Lascannon sponsons/120pts
Predator - Heavy Bolter sponsons/85pts

I know you said you didn't like MSU, but this is a blend, having two full tactical squads, and two combat squads for sternguard in Plazorbacks (that's lascannon/twinlinked plasma gun), plus all the juicy support options. You can make another predator into a dakka pred and turn the dread into a ML/Las configuration.

Food for thought.

Blacksails wrote:

jbsnv wrote:what is the point of auto las ? just go either auto hb or las las

Sure, cause I want to pay another 45 points for the privilege of shooting a single, TL lascannon. In just about every forum and 40k blog ever, it is 99.9% agreed upon that the TL Lascannon is not even remotely worth the cost. The two viable predator loadouts for competitive play are the autolas and dakka pred (auto/hb).

The autolas is a very good tank killer, and the dakka pred does light transports and horde duty.

*Edit*

I thought about a sternguard list once, and here's what I came up with;

Pedro - /175pts

Sternguard (5) - 4x combi weapon, Plazorback/220pts
Sternguard (5) - 5x combi weapon, Plazorback/225pts
Dreadnought - 2x TL Autocannon/125pts

Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, ML, Combi-flamer, Rhino/215pts
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, ML, Combi-flamer, Rhino/215pts

Predator - Lascannon sponsons/120pts
Predator - Lascannon sponsons/120pts
Predator - Heavy Bolter sponsons/85pts

I know you said you didn't like MSU, but this is a blend, having two full tactical squads, and two combat squads for sternguard in Plazorbacks (that's lascannon/twinlinked plasma gun), plus all the juicy support options. You can make another predator into a dakka pred and turn the dread into a ML/Las configuration.

Food for thought.

While I like this, you hit my issues with it right no the nail. Vanilla Marines don't do MSU well, and if I were ever to do something like that, I'd do it with the tactical squads, not the Sternguard squads. I can afford to lose one 5-6 man tac squad, whatever. Losing half my SG? That's a heavier blow. Besides, why would you stunt the Pedro/SG combo? You stick him in with nine SG, and boom, you've got a ten man unit with three base attacks and a powerfist, on top of their already fairly obscene shooting capabilities. If I remember correctly, Pedro, nine SG, and four combi-weapons comes out to around 300 points. almost 150 less than splitting them and giving them Razors. You could buy another rifleman dread with that, or maybe some bikes, or a Vindicator, or... Well, a bunch of stuff.

Also, not sure why you'd give combi-flamers to the TAC squads, since it's only a single shot, and they already have a flamer in the squad. I dunno how much that costs, but... *shrugs*.

I must admit, though, food for thought indeed. I might just combat squad the TAC. Not sure. I'd have to look at how much it costs, first.

While destructor and AC/LC are the most popular predators on the internet for 99.9% of people, probably 50% of those people are idiots and the TLLC turret is far from useless. While it's true I have a bit of a fetish for annihilator preds, there's also reasonable basis for this statement.

The TLLC turret...
-Packs more offensive power than a single sponson LC.
-Can fire over rhino hulls.
-Has 360* field of vision.

Why is this relevant? Because preds have weak side armor. Unless you are blessed with an awesome fire lane, it's common to have to expose side armor in order to fire both sponsons. A TLLC turret is a compromise in firepower, but lets you maintain front armor where it's most needed.
What if they blow off the turret? Well, this is always a problem but with better control of your facing, the turret will last longer.
What if we're shooting at light armor? Obviously in this case, the TLLC turret will be outperformed by an autolas pred with AC and one LC sponson.

Incidentally, around here is where LC/HB preds start to make sense. Are they overpriced and goofy as hell? Yes. Do I use them? No. Are they useless? No.

While destructor and AC/LC

The TLLC turret...
-Packs more offensive power than a single sponson LC.
-Can fire over rhino hulls.
-Has 360* field of vision.

Why is this relevant? Because preds have weak side armor. Unless you are blessed with an awesome fire lane, it's common to have to expose side armor in order to fire both sponsons. A TLLC turret is a compromise in firepower, but lets you maintain front armor where it's most needed.
What if they blow off the turret? Well, this is always a problem but with better control of your facing, the turret will last longer.
What if we're shooting at light armor? Obviously in this case, the TLLC turret will be outperformed by an autolas pred with AC and one LC sponson.

Incidentally, around here is where LC/HB preds start to make sense. Are they overpriced and goofy as hell? Yes. Do I use them? No. Are they useless? No.

Which is all fine and dandy. Like I said, I may even do that with the TAC squads. That'd make even more sense, since I can get four combat squads with Razors as opposed to just two. I'd rather keep my Sternguard consolidated, however, so they can't be taken out piecemeal, and so that they can benifit from Pedro's Inspiring Presence, and do double-duty as a CC unit, in a pinch. While I do understand that, if I split those Sternguard into two combat squads, I could fit in double the combi-weapons, I'd much rather enjoy using those points for another unit, like another dread, or another pred, or a vindicator, or whatever else suits my fancy. It's a great idea, it just doesn't make sense for my Sternguard.

Combi weapons are taken to double up on the special weapons on the turn with the right opportunity. Here's an example from a recent game of mine:

A Combi Flamer, a Flamer and the rest of the Bolter guys unload on a squad of 15 Bloodletters that just deep struck. ~24 wounds were dealt. With Null Zone support, the Bloodletters were wiped off from the table. If I didn't have the Combi Flamer, I wouldn't have that many wounds dealt as the Sarge would have only double tapped on his own Bolter.

And are you trying to be competitive with this list?

AresX8 wrote:Combi weapons are taken to double up on the special weapons on the turn with the right opportunity. Here's an example from a recent game of mine:

A Combi Flamer, a Flamer and the rest of the Bolter guys unload on a squad of 15 Bloodletters that just deep struck. ~24 wounds were dealt. With Null Zone support, the Bloodletters were wiped off from the table. If I didn't have the Combi Flamer, I wouldn't have that many wounds dealt as the Sarge would have only double tapped on his own Bolter.

And are you trying to be competitive with this list?

Ah, that makes more sense. Still may not be my move, depending on how many points I can get for them, but makes sense.

And not at all. I'm just looking for fluff/lols/whatever. I don't think I'd mind winning every now and then, but I don't think you'll see me often at tournaments. Just not my thing.

Almarine wrote:While destructor and AC/LC are the most popular predators on the internet for 99.9% of people, probably 50% of those people are idiots and the TLLC turret is far from useless. While it's true I have a bit of a fetish for annihilator preds, there's also reasonable basis for this statement.

The TLLC turret...
-Packs more offensive power than a single sponson LC.
-Can fire over rhino hulls.
-Has 360* field of vision.

Why is this relevant? Because preds have weak side armor. Unless you are blessed with an awesome fire lane, it's common to have to expose side armor in order to fire both sponsons. A TLLC turret is a compromise in firepower, but lets you maintain front armor where it's most needed.
What if they blow off the turret? Well, this is always a problem but with better control of your facing, the turret will last longer.
What if we're shooting at light armor? Obviously in this case, the TLLC turret will be outperformed by an autolas pred with AC and one LC sponson.

Incidentally, around here is where LC/HB preds start to make sense. Are they overpriced and goofy as hell? Yes. Do I use them? No. Are they useless? No.

You can feel free to disagree all you want and believe half of those people are idiots, but for competitive play, which what I prefaced my argument with, the TL-LC is not worth the cost.

It may provide you with benefits, but the point is, it does not provide 45 pts worth of benefits. Furthemore, the alter pred (TL-LC, HB sponsons) is a particularly confused configuration that is more expensive than the auto-las and dakka pred, while doing neither of their jobs better.

It may work for you or your friends, but for competitive play, they're an inefficient use of your points.

As for TermiesInARaider;

I can understand why you don't like vanilla MSU. However, I will disagree that that vanilla doesn't MSU well at all. Vanilla does MSU differently, in that you can effectively mix 10-man rhinos with 5-man plazorbacks for maximum vehicle saturation, long range firepower, and flexibility with regards to objective grabbing/holding.

The problem with the sternguard MSU is, as you pointed out, the inefficient use of Pedro. Your option of taking a 9-man squad plus Pedro might work a little better with the addition of two lascannons, effectively turning the rhino into a super razorback. Then add in another dread and three preds, and not only will you have a pretty fluffy CF list, it'll be pretty competitive to boot.

As for TermiesInARaider;

I can understand why you don't like vanilla MSU. However, I will disagree that that vanilla doesn't MSU well at all. Vanilla does MSU differently, in that you can effectively mix 10-man rhinos with 5-man plazorbacks for maximum vehicle saturation, long range firepower, and flexibility with regards to objective grabbing/holding.

The problem with the sternguard MSU is, as you pointed out, the inefficient use of Pedro. Your option of taking a 9-man squad plus Pedro might work a little better with the addition of two lascannons, effectively turning the rhino into a super razorback. Then add in another dread and three preds, and not only will you have a pretty fluffy CF list, it'll be pretty competitive to boot.

Exactly what I was thinking. If I go MSU with my TAC squads, or even just one of them, that gives me a lot more firepower, and a lot of flexibility as to how I apply that force. Much more effective than splitting and weakening the Sternguards.

@Blacksails: Differently is exactly how the LC/HB does the jobs of AC/LC and AC/HB. Moreover, you make "competitive play" sound like a magical land where empirical data is useless and all that matters is a unit's firepower-cost ratio. If you don't think a TLLC turret is worth 45pts then that's obviously your business, but the fact (estimate) that 99% of people agree is a pretty lazy argument.

@TermiesInARaider: I think your main problem here is pedro himself. For some reason people get really bothered about scoring sternguard when they're already packing two full tacticals. Here are some reasons why I think you should drop PK:

1. His biggest positive effect is scoring sternguard. You've got enough scoring units so this only makes them a bigger fire magnet.
2. He makes tactical squads worse. Tactical squads are much better with combat tactics than stubborn, it makes them harder to deal with and can get you free shots which is better than attacks at the cost of LIVES.
3. He makes sternguard worse. Sternguard want to get out of combat and shoot their bolters even more than tacticals. This is probably why he gets the +1A bubble, but it's not going to help much.
4. He's a ripoff and you don't need him to play crimson fists, they were perfectly fine without him. Check out the rogue trader book.

Instead I think you should load up on preds like blacksails said, or maybe dreads/speeders.

Almarine wrote:@Blacksails: Differently is exactly how the LC/HB does the jobs of AC/LC and AC/HB. Moreover, you make "competitive play" sound like a magical land where empirical data is useless and all that matters is a unit's firepower-cost ratio. If you don't think a TLLC turret is worth 45pts then that's obviously your business, but the fact (estimate) that 99% of people agree is a pretty lazy argument.

@TermiesInARaider: I think your main problem here is pedro himself. For some reason people get really bothered about scoring sternguard when they're already packing two full tacticals. Here are some reasons why I think you should drop PK:

1. His biggest positive effect is scoring sternguard. You've got enough scoring units so this only makes them a bigger fire magnet.
2. He makes tactical squads worse. Tactical squads are much better with combat tactics than stubborn, it makes them harder to deal with and can get you free shots which is better than attacks at the cost of LIVES.
3. He makes sternguard worse. Sternguard want to get out of combat and shoot their bolters even more than tacticals. This is probably why he gets the +1A bubble, but it's not going to help much.
4. He's a ripoff and you don't need him to play crimson fists, they were perfectly fine without him. Check out the rogue trader book.

Instead I think you should load up on preds like blacksails said, or maybe dreads/speeders.

Well, I can tell you right off the bat I'm not dropping PK. I like him. If I'm less competative because of it, than so be it. As for preds and dreads, three and two, respectively, is nothing to sneeze at.

That said, I still think he fits more than you give him credit for. Dorn's Arrow is an awesome gun. I don't recall the exact numbers, but my Sternguard aren't going to be complaining because Pedro isn't pulling his weight when it comes to laying out fire. And nobody ever suggested I was going to just throw them into a charge. Obviously, even with Pedro's powerfist and the extra attacks he allows, that isn't the Sternguard's forte. What it DOES do, however, is act as a deterrent. 3 base attacks and a powerfist mean that your opponent is much more cautious about just tossing an IC at them and leaving it there. It makes them, wholesale, harder to deal with.

Almarine wrote:@Blacksails: Differently is exactly how the LC/HB does the jobs of AC/LC and AC/HB. Moreover, you make "competitive play" sound like a magical land where empirical data is useless and all that matters is a unit's firepower-cost ratio. If you don't think a TLLC turret is worth 45pts then that's obviously your business, but the fact (estimate) that 99% of people agree is a pretty lazy argument.

I don't know how you actually believe the TL-LC/HB pred is any way truly a better, more competitive option than the two other pred loadouts.

With regards to competitive play, firepower to cost ratio is important. Also, what empirical data do you speak that I am somehow dismissing.

Sure, my 99% argument may be statistically incorrect, but it was an exaggeration to make a point that the overwhelming majority of 40k players will agree that the alter pred is a sub-par loadout compared to the dakka pred and combi pred. Its the most expensive loadout that truly doesn't add anything the others already do, for cheaper and better. Sure, the turret is nice, but my point is that its not 45pts nice.

Feel free to like it and all that, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. The simple fact is, for 45pts, its not worth switching a perfectly useful autocannon for a single, TL-Lascannon.

Look through the myriad of SM lists posted here, and related tactics posts about preds. When discussing 'optimal', 'compeitive', and 'efficient' predators for your valuable slots, I have never seen someone suggest using an alter pred over a combi or dakka pred.

Its the equivalent of using an Ironclad dreadnought with hurricane bolters. Its just not optimal.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

While destructor and AC/LC

The TLLC turret...
-Packs more offensive power than a single sponson LC.
-Can fire over rhino hulls.
-Has 360* field of vision.

Why is this relevant? Because preds have weak side armor. Unless you are blessed with an awesome fire lane, it's common to have to expose side armor in order to fire both sponsons. A TLLC turret is a compromise in firepower, but lets you maintain front armor where it's most needed.
What if they blow off the turret? Well, this is always a problem but with better control of your facing, the turret will last longer.
What if we're shooting at light armor? Obviously in this case, the TLLC turret will be outperformed by an autolas pred with AC and one LC sponson.

Incidentally, around here is where LC/HB preds start to make sense. Are they overpriced and goofy as hell? Yes. Do I use them? No. Are they useless? No.

Which is all fine and dandy. Like I said, I may even do that with the TAC squads. That'd make even more sense, since I can get four combat squads with Razors as opposed to just two. I'd rather keep my Sternguard consolidated, however, so they can't be taken out piecemeal, and so that they can benifit from Pedro's Inspiring Presence, and do double-duty as a CC unit, in a pinch. While I do understand that, if I split those Sternguard into two combat squads, I could fit in double the combi-weapons, I'd much rather enjoy using those points for another unit, like another dread, or another pred, or a vindicator, or whatever else suits my fancy. It's a great idea, it just doesn't make sense for my Sternguard.

Wow... In retrospect, that made no sense at all.

Though, I all honesty, I'm going with what Blacksails said. The AC/LC pred is cheaper, and does it better. Especially against monsterous creatures, where, if I'm not mistaken, the autocannon gets rending? I'm probably mistaken, but I know it's good for MCs.... I really need to get home and read my codex.

MCs will always get their 3+ armour save vs. autocannons. People talk about MCs a lot as something ACs are good against, but it's a bit misleading because they're not that great. The thing is that they're cheap, so you should be able to concentrate fire on a given MC and "force" wounds on it.
This only works if you actually have a lot of autocannons though, and it's only "good" because generally the presence of MCs implies fewer transports to shoot at, so even if the enemy is nids, your ACs aren't completely denied. I would say they're still at least half-way denied though because ACs are substantially worse against MCs than AV10.

As for the predator thing, I guess we've misunderstood each other. I'm not saying LC/HB is better than AC/LC, just that taking one doesn't automatically invalidate a list for "competitive play". I agree that TLLC turrets are overpriced, but not by an awful lot.
You could say it's off topic but if I asked what units to take I'd prefer to hear a bit of justification beyond "everyone does it, that makes it better".

Dorn's Arrow is a double storm bolter with AP4, I think? So yeah great for shooting unhorsed aspect warriors/fish in a barrel. It'll be largely wasted against the things sternguard want to fire at most though, like MCs and tanks.
Also I'm not trying to be an donkey-cave here but I don't see how he's a deterrent at all. The units that can wipe 10 tactical marines off the board can also wipe this unit off the board. It doesn't really matter that you get more attacks because they're still i4 and they still don't ignore FNP.
Units that can't wipe this unit off the board can still hold out through your shooting phase which makes it a bad exchange for you. Unless they're IG vets or fire warriors or something, then I guess congratulations. There's still the issue of shooting attacks however, you'll have to watch out for LRBTs and vindicators.

TermiesInARaider wrote: I'm just looking for fluff/lols/whatever. I don't think I'd mind winning every now and then, but I don't think you'll see me often at tournaments. Just not my thing.

Then I guess it should have said non competitive on the subject. You would not have got much responses though.

Almarine wrote:MCs will always get their 3+ armour save vs. autocannons. People talk about MCs a lot as something ACs are good against, but it's a bit misleading because they're not that great. The thing is that they're cheap, so you should be able to concentrate fire on a given MC and "force" wounds on it.
This only works if you actually have a lot of autocannons though, and it's only "good" because generally the presence of MCs implies fewer transports to shoot at, so even if the enemy is nids, your ACs aren't completely denied. I would say they're still at least half-way denied though because ACs are substantially worse against MCs than AV10.

As for the predator thing, I guess we've misunderstood each other. I'm not saying LC/HB is better than AC/LC, just that taking one doesn't automatically invalidate a list for "competitive play". I agree that TLLC turrets are overpriced, but not by an awful lot.
You could say it's off topic but if I asked what units to take I'd prefer to hear a bit of justification beyond "everyone does it, that makes it better".

Dorn's Arrow is a double storm bolter with AP4, I think? So yeah great for shooting unhorsed aspect warriors/fish in a barrel. It'll be largely wasted against the things sternguard want to fire at most though, like MCs and tanks.
Also I'm not trying to be an donkey-cave here but I don't see how he's a deterrent at all. The units that can wipe 10 tactical marines off the board can also wipe this unit off the board. It doesn't really matter that you get more attacks because they're still i4 and they still don't ignore FNP.
Units that can't wipe this unit off the board can still hold out through your shooting phase which makes it a bad exchange for you. Unless they're IG vets or fire warriors or something, then I guess congratulations. There's still the issue of shooting attacks however, you'll have to watch out for LRBTs and vindicators.

I'll let you two battle it out on the pred thing, then, as you would know better. As for Pedro, you would know better than I, but I like him, so he stays.

Also, what about a Librarian? As I understand they can be a very flexible HQ choice. Is there a specific Libby setup that would lend itself well to this list?

There's no battle, I just thought you might appreciate another perspective on pred loadouts. By now I think we're all mostly agreed.

Librarians have definite advantages over other space marine HQs, in the form of psychic powers, a psychic hood (if you manage to remember it) and low cost. They also have disadvantages, mainly a lack of invul save and only 2 wounds.
One useful power is gate of infinity. With this you can teleport your sternguard into rapid fire position. Null zone and force dome are also useful powers.

Personally I think you're already a bit heavy in HQ but if you're definitely keeping pedro and want a librarian too, I would go with Gate/Dome. Null zone is good but you haven't got very many guns to take advantage of it, plus you have a lot riding on that one sternguard unit so it could do with a 5++.
With pedro and a librarian in the same unit you can actually make scoring jumps with sternguard, so there's something to the combo I guess.

Almarine wrote:There's no battle, I just thought you might appreciate another perspective on pred loadouts. By now I think we're all mostly agreed.

Librarians have definite advantages over other space marine HQs, in the form of psychic powers, a psychic hood (if you manage to remember it) and low cost. They also have disadvantages, mainly a lack of invul save and only 2 wounds.
One useful power is gate of infinity. With this you can teleport your sternguard into rapid fire position. Null zone and force dome are also useful powers.

Personally I think you're already a bit heavy in HQ but if you're definitely keeping pedro and want a librarian too, I would go with Gate/Dome. Null zone is good but you haven't got very many guns to take advantage of it, plus you have a lot riding on that one sternguard unit so it could do with a 5++.
With pedro and a librarian in the same unit you can actually make scoring jumps with sternguard, so there's something to the combo I guess.

Not sure what you meant by not a lot of guns. Two full tactical squads, a sternguard squad, at the very least one dread, possibly more, and possibly some preds/vindicators. There's also the possibility of splitting up the tac squads into four Plasorbacks. That's not a lot of guns?

For non Daemon armies, you need a high concentration of AP3 or below weapons or TH/SS Termies in order to get a good return from Null Zone.

AresX8 wrote:For non Daemon armies, you need a high concentration of AP3 or below weapons or TH/SS Termies in order to get a good return from Null Zone.

Ah. I'll keep that in mind. Anyways, thanks to y'all for all the help.

I think you should possibly shrink the size of that stern squad a little, since it's taking a lot of points.

LlamaAgility wrote:I think you should possibly shrink the size of that stern squad a little, since it's taking a lot of points.

That's kinda the point, dude. They're fluffy. The Crimson Fists are supposed to be heavy with points-expensive units. Their veterans are all they have left, since everyone else took a dirt-nap on Rynn's World.