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I read that daemons got better in 6th in the best army on paper thread but everything I have read elsewhere and I also kind of feel is that they got worse. Bloodletters got taken for a ride with the AP3 and a lot of the units are almost unplayable. I see that the monstrous creatures got a buff but that kind of ruins soul grinders...I guess I'm jut wondering if it's going to be mandatory for me to pickup a chaos space marine list to fill out daemons making them pretty much a pure ally army or can they stand on their own?

Flying DPs. The rest of the army can just ride their coat tails.

But I think that when the Chaos codex comes out, the combination of the two will be one of the strongest options possible. But you may wanna wait for that to happen before buying models, as I dunno what the codex will look like on paper, and it may get shaken up quite a bit.

I played my demons this weekend and yes all of their troops are about 5-6 points to expensive now. I am not impressed at all by FMC's I think much of the FMC and flyer hubub is theory crafting, anytime an FMC takes a hit (not a wound) they have a chance of crashing, and they have to test for every unit. Also the FMC's in the demons codex are amongst the weakest and most expensive in the game coming in at only 4 wounds. Demons are struggling right now. Soul Grinders while having 4 hull points, I think that was to make up for the ridiculous cost built in for having demonic possession rules which now every vehicle practically has or at least a slightly weaker form. My soul grinders did actually do quite well, but they were always pretty decent on their own.

Not only did they get a little better with flying daemon princes, but the deep strike rules made it less likely to lose a detachment. Also, I can't wait for a "counts as" Skyshield for the daemons, like a hill with a giant summoning circle.

This sentiment came from reading of course I don't have them yet it just seems like everything I read had them sitting as the worst army in 40k but then in the "best army in 40k on paper" thread they made it seem like they were at least competitive. I'm not sure but september isn't that far off. It's not like my orks are getting a codex....well ever anyway. So something new won't hurt me ^-^
just don't really know how the daemons stack up. Especially with everyone playing gk's in tourneys...

So far in 6th I have won games by a very close margin, and I have lost by turn 3.

Daemons aren't a great army, that combined with the fact you start the game with half an army against your opponents full army.

Means you'll probably lose more games than you win through no fault of your own but just because the Chaos Gods are pretty careless with their armies.

Daemons have a new build that is exciting: The Flying Circus. Basically it involves taking a whole bunch of flying MCs and the Fateweaver to fly around Vector Striking everything and be basically immune to heavy arms because everything needs a 6 to hit. The build seems strong but it is by no means going to compete with an IG parking lot or a strong Necron list. Unfortunately, it only takes 18 shots from any gun to ground a flying MC. This almost certainly causes a wound and lets all of your opponent's heavy arms light up the MC. Armies that can pack a lot of small arms fire (orks, footcrons, IG blobs, etc) make flying a hazard. In addition, you are paying 1000 points for a deathstar with limited mobility (can only turn 90 degrees per turn) and somewhat limited killing power versus mech and hoards. The flying circus will absolutely destroy exposed MeQ but it isn't superb at other roles.

The change to the mishap chart is also a bonus. This is a pure buff for us.

However, Daemons still have very weak troop choices. Plaguebeaerers are not nearly as good in 6th because they can no longer go to ground for a 4++ with 4+ FnP. Horrors are probably the better option, but they are 3 or 4 points overpriced. Now add the fact that Daemons have virtually no answers to flyers with AV12 and we have two huge hurdles to overcome.

Daemons got a buff from 6th, but they are still in the bottom tier of competitiveness. They lack the tools to open tanks and deal with hoards. Good luck downing 6 Vendettas, beating Razorspam, or killing 180 orks. Space Wolves will be an easy matchup since a lot of their stuff starts out outside of vehicles, but pretty much every other army presents a challenge.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not only did they get a little better with flying daemon princes, but the deep strike rules made it less likely to lose a detachment. Also, I can't wait for a "counts as" Skyshield for the daemons, like a hill with a giant summoning circle.

Maybe one could use the "Temple of Skulls"?

I've been doing a ton of reading and it just seems like if you don't take CSM allies daemons just can't win. Draw? Sure. But win outright is just difficult in the extreme. I'm excited about the challenge especially after playing horde orks I just don't know if I want to go tzeench with some mix of khorne or use nurgle's toughness just a very tough army lol

Well I took it up for the challenge in the first place, though I already found it appalling enough to have to mix different Gods together just to be viable, now I may have to mix in mortals as well...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not only did they get a little better with flying daemon princes, but the deep strike rules made it less likely to lose a detachment. Also, I can't wait for a "counts as" Skyshield for the daemons, like a hill with a giant summoning circle.

I'd probably make one if I could remember what they do. Seeing as I sort of already make the circles at times, may as well make one I can use in each game.

I played Daemons in 5th some and did alright, but I see my Daemon army getting even better in 6th. 95% of this game is based on generalship when you play a xenos army. If someone knows what they are doing with an army and play vs a subpar player or a player that isn't familiar with the xenos codex, they will get roflstomped.

For instance, my Daemon list is shoot Tzeentch Daemons (heralds on chariots, horrors, flamers and Slaanesh princes for Pavane and breath fun) and I went to a tournament in Cookeville a few weeks back. My first opponent knows the Daemon codex well, he was playing Dark Eldar which I feel is a pretty bad matchup for daemons anyway and I was destroyed. But my next two opponents had no clue what anything did and I nearly tabled both of them. I didn't cheat, but because they didn't know what to expect it was overwhelming.

Back in early 5th edition you hardly ever saw any Dark Eldar, so when I started playing people didn't know what to expect. I had a ridiculus win streak locally when I started them because Dark Eldar were so vastly different from the other local metagame. But once my army went around the block for a little while it started to get into the standard win/loss record.

So I don't think Daemons are as "bottom tier" as everyone thinks, they are just not a beginner army. They aren't forgiving like marines. They aren't cheap like marines. They don't have saves like marines. And they don't have the firepower or transports that marines have. But when you get their finesse down, they are nasty!

I'm customizing a Skyshield to be a daemon summoning circle. I haven't read anywhere yet that only Imperial can take certain fortifications, so I figured why not.

Haven't had a chance to play 6th Daemons yet, but I plan to run them with a detachment of CSM and lots of FMC. A bloodthirster with Fateweaver and three generic flying DP will be nasty.

People will always look for the worst case senario it seems...

Yes, Bloodletters & Bloodcrushers aren't an answer to absolutely everything anymore. They'll still wipe the floor with any MEQ unit, but now you actually need to (gasp!) support them if you send them into TEQ's! 5-8 Bloodcrushers + Fiends/MC/Seekers will pound any TEQ's short of a maxed-out pally deathstar.
Plaguebearers like all other FnP units got riegned in which they needed. Seriously, they were verging on silly with how easy it was in 5th to give them a 3++/4+ FnP save simply by going to ground on any objective hidden in cover.

Daemons still work quite well, and anyways, pure mech-spam was always a bad match-up for us, so nothing's really changed in that regards with flyers. The plus side now, facing those same 8-12+ metal bawkes isn't nearly as boring a near auto-lose game as it was thanks to hull pts! Send your Fiends and Seekers after those vehicles and watch them go down rather quickly thanks to all those rending attacks that now also hit alot easier!

Overall I think we've been brought up a notch. But as pointed out above, we're not a beginners army and we're not for the tactically inept either! With Daemons you have to know what you're doing and you have to understand the synergy within your list. Just spaming 'unit X' and going 'lol-I-win!' isn't going to cut it for Daemons!
And GK's will always be an uphill battle, and now mech spam has been replaced with flyer spam.

Demons are fine against anything that's not flyer spam.
Bolt of Tzeentch deals with light armour fine, and remember you don't HAVE to fly. If you want to pop a transport you can simply hop over it, BOT the back armour then assault the inhabitants.

I play orks and I can take a number of different things and they all work well together. Maybe it's because of the fluff maybe it's because of the writer but it seems like most units need to be taken in 2's (what I mean by that is the unit and something to support it) Like fiends needing this or princes needing that. Don't take me as whining because I HAD gk's and only played them once. After my orks I swore to never own another MEQ army so I went to daemons. I may have to break that and get some CSM but I don't feel like they're necessarily as bad as the smurfs or anything IOM has. That said I'm excited I truly am to get this army underway I know it will be challenging and A LOT of luck will be involved but the painting the fluff and the fact that you just don't see daemons because they're "bottom tier" is kind of exciting.

Do you guys know of a place I can read more on them? I'm reading now about the daemon princes psychic powers and what to take and what not to (I'll make the final judgement but it's best to hear others out!) I'm just kind of looking for a new experience with some great looking models that are different and let's be honest, a red and black monster coming straight at you down the field makes even the most hardened player doody all over...